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Old
03-24-2008, 05:57 AM
  #1
One Man Rock Band
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To the Higgins bashers..

Seriously, I post the stats and the facts in the Higgins thread.. and people ignore and just "claim" Higgins is not a 1st (or even some) not a 2nd line player. It's ********. Why ignore my post, which features all the stats on an improving player, who is 24-years old, and is already a Top-30 scoring LWer...

Here is my post from the other thread, seriously.. if you can break these facts and stats.. then you must be magic to see into the future.. because all the facts explain is that he is a bottom-1st liner LWer (or ELITE 2nd line LWer) and he's still young.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamrlikTheStud View Post
Man... play Kostitsyn between 18 and 19 minutes a game (like Higgins) and he will get 65 points at the very least. Higgins, in his last two seasons, has been 2nd on ice time per game (only Kovalev got more) among the wingers, and still manages to get less points than Kostitsyn, who plays barely 15 minutes a game and who is playing his first full NHL season.

Everybody here talks about how Koivu holded back Higgins' production. What about if it was the opposite?
Higgins plays 2 1/2 minutes more per game than Andrei Kostitsyn. 1 1/2 of those minutes are on the PK. Leaving just 1 minute more time per game than Andrei Kostitsyn.

Factor in line-mates and I'd say that Higgins has done a pretty good job. Kosty has played with Kovalev and Pleks for the majority of his season, where-as Higgins (and Koivu) played the first three months of the season without a RW.

Higgins is in the Top-30 (25th I think, actually 27th after looking) scoring in the NHL for LWers. That puts him, statistically, as a 1st line player.

Also, while he has slumped of recent (even though the effort is there).. the last time I checked, a season is 82 games long.. and he has produced just fine.

Lets take a look at the stats, shall we;
CAREER HIGHS
Hits (71 to 67 and 35)
Blocked Shots (58 to 47 and 41)
Plus/Minus (+2 to -1 and -11)
Points (47 to 38 an 38)
Assists (25 to 17 and 18)
Powerplay Goals (10 to 7 and 8)
Powerplay Assists (13 to 5 and 7)
Powerplay Points (23 to 12 and 15)
Shots (218 to 159 and 148) * It's too bad he's snake-bitten because shooting more is always good..
Ice-Time (18:02 to 16:34 and 17:54)
Give-Aways (15 to 19 and 19)

Possible Career Highs
Goals (needs 1 to tie, 2 to break)
Game-Winning Goals (1 to break)
Take-Aways (3 to tie, 4 to break)
Point-Per-Game (currently tied at 0.62, needs .1 to break, which would be 5 PTS over last 6 GP)


People just expect way too much from a third year, 24-year old player.. It's as if we expect him to be a superstar already.. We are going to have 2 LWers in the Top-20 in scoring in the next few years.. There are a bunch of teams with no-one in the Top-30, let alone 2 players. I'm sure a few teams use out-of-position players, not listed in the LWer list, in that spot.. but I can't imagine too many.. considering Andrei is a RW but he's listed as an LW on NHL.com.


The following teams, for example, don't have a top-30 scoring LWer..
* Top scoring LWer on team in brackets

New York Rangers [46th]
New York Islanders [44th]
Florida Panthers [39th]
Tampa Bay Lightning [38th]
Nashville Predators [51st]
Chicago Blackhawks [49th]
Minnesota Wild [75th]
Phoenix Coyotes [60th]


The only teams with more than one top-30 scoring LWer are;
Ottawa (Stillman [12th], Healtey [4th], Vermette [30th])
Carolina (Cole [28th], Whitney [13th])
New Jersey (Patrick Elias [20th], Zach Parise [11th])
Los Angeles (Dustin Brown [16th], Frolov [10th])
Calgary (Huselius [9th], Tanguay [17th])
Vancouver (Sedin [5th], Naslund [20th])
Montreal (Kostitsyn [23rd], Higgins [27th])

We need to stop expecting our players to be superstars so quickly.. it takes time. Higgins is well on his way to becoming a Top-20 NHL LWer.

PS. I hope both Higgins & his agent think as poorly of him as everyone here does, because we'd get a 1st line player for petty cash!

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Old
03-24-2008, 06:06 AM
  #2
Tuggy
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I don't really give a **** what people on here think about him. The only thing he's not doing right now is scoring goals and believe it or not, there is more to hockey then just that. We have a lot of box score watchers around here (and that might not be their fault) but Higgins is still playing hard every shift and is one of our best penalty killers (the PK is playing better IMO) on the team.

So he doesn't have 30-35 goals right now, big deal. Maybe he's not that type of player but he is still a damn good two-way hockey player and people around here can shove it if they don't like him.

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Old
03-24-2008, 06:12 AM
  #3
Hackett
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I dont think there's a ton of higgins bashing. He's a hardworking, speedy forward that was drafted to become a 2 way player. He has already exceeded expectations if you look at it that way

I guess the apparent "bashing" all depends on what expectations people have had for higgins and I think that varies greatly from person to person on these boards.

While higgins is pretty streaky as an offensive threat, at the end of the day, he's still meeting my offensive expectations.

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Old
03-24-2008, 06:24 AM
  #4
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Higgins said at the beginning of the season he wanted to score 40 goals and felt he could.

People took that like Higgins making a personal promise to the fans he would score 40 and now feel betrayed.

That's the only way I can figure people are disappointed with Higgins. Oh, and he speaks his mind instead of just shutting up and firing around cliches about "full 60 minutes" and "fundamentals". Kinda like that Saku guy on the team.

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Old
03-24-2008, 06:27 AM
  #5
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It's not about the stats.....never was....

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Old
03-24-2008, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by znk View Post
It's not about the stats.....never was....
Yeah..

Because hockey isn't about winning a game by numbers.

Nope its all about the moral victories.

I forgot.


PS. Because some people don't understand, there is just a pinch of sarcasm here.


Last edited by One Man Rock Band: 03-24-2008 at 06:44 AM.
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Old
03-24-2008, 06:50 AM
  #7
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I have no problem with Higgins - I think he is in the perfect spot right now in the lines. We finally have a good combination in my opinion.

I think people around here expect too much from the guy. He's a perfect 2a/2b liner, but not a first line guy yet. Let him develop and maybe he'll turn into a true top 3 guy - he's not that yet but I have no issues with that. He's still a good player.

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Old
03-24-2008, 07:17 AM
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He's a great player that does a lot of little things right. We as fans have gotten too complacent and expect him to be a world beater. Well it also doesn't help that Higgins put himself in that position with his 40-40 comments.

His lack of finish is what totally frustrates fans.

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Old
03-24-2008, 07:20 AM
  #9
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in the last few games Higgins should have walked away with at least 5 goals, he is getting his chances. they just need to start going in.

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Old
03-24-2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
He's a great player that does a lot of little things right. We as fans have gotten too complacent and expect him to be a world beater. Well it also doesn't help that Higgins put himself in that position with his 40-40 comments.

His lack of finish is what totally frustrates fans.
It frustrates us all.. but every couple of years, those bounces will go his way. But at least he is creating a buzz and getting scoring chances. Every time a player gets a scoring chance, the entire team pushes harder to score.

However, lack of finish or not, the stats don't like. He's scoring a 1st line LW level right now.

There are lots of guys around him, who lack finish this season. It's not an uncommon thing.. and it's also not uncommon for them to get the lucky bounces one season.

For example, the following top-30 LWers have similar or worse shooting percentages than Higgins;

Jason Blake - 14 goals, 316 shots
Erik Cole - 21 goals, 204 shots
Chris Kunitz - 20 goals, 182 shots
Dustin Penner - 21 goals, 185 shots
Milan Michalek - 23 goals, 218 shots
Markus Naslund - 23 goals, 211 shots
Paul Kariya - 15 goals, 209 shots


Last edited by One Man Rock Band: 03-24-2008 at 07:27 AM.
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Old
03-24-2008, 07:30 AM
  #11
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It's been 1 season don't tag a player with a title like that when he is only 24 come on now , Higgins is a great example of a player with the CH Tattooed on himself. He is a future leader and I'm sure he brings (or will bring in the future) alot of character to the dressing room , so if you aren't happy with statistical assessment , what else do you need as proof. I wouldn't trade Higgins for Hossa straight up...I find with the contrast in salary Higgins brings much more to the table.

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03-24-2008, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
Well it also doesn't help that Higgins put himself in that position with his 40-40 comments.
Would people rather Higgins to shoot lower? I prefer every player to call for impressive plateaus so that if they struggle to reach the number, they still have put on an impressive season (Which Higgins has).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Form and Substance View Post
His lack of finish is what totally frustrates fans.
I have never understood this. I will much rather a player who creates challenges and participates in challenges but doesn't finish over the myriad of forwards in the NHL who cannot even create chances, especially not on the penalty kill. Higgins does those things. One of these seasons he'll be burying those chances and get an inflated score count, while the next he'll go back to missing them but keeping the momentum on our side.

Higgins is a momentum builder. When he doesn't give up the game, it gives other players a chance to make the game.

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Old
03-24-2008, 07:36 AM
  #13
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I get pissed every time I see higgins trying to play like Kovalev or A.Kostitsyn. I would like to see him more cut to the net and SHOOOOT THE PUCK instead of trying to deke or something.

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:05 AM
  #14
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Sure he's going to be good eventually, but is now the time to give him an A?

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:20 AM
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Higgins will eventually find himself on a two-way third line.. maybe something like Higgins-Chipchura-D'Agostini.

That line will be a supreme shut-down force with the boardplay of Chipchura and Higgins. The smarts of all three players and the speed of Higgins and D'Ago. On top of that, all three of those players could end up being 20-30 goal scorers. If they are doing that on the third-line while still being shutdown players, that'll be so invaluable to this team moving forward.

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03-24-2008, 08:20 AM
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Well, I like Higgins and all but I understand why people expect more from him because he's underachieved for the last couple months.

You know, you can make stats say pretty much anything if you manipulate them enough. My question to you is: are you watching the games? If so, you have to admit that Higgins is offensively inferior to Kostitsyn and that Andrei is the teams first line LW. That's pretty much all there is to it.

Now, the good thing is that Higgins can play much better. That's great news! If he regains his early season form for the playoffs, that would be a major boost to the Habs run for 25!

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:20 AM
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He's good and i put him in the mold of a top excellent 2nd line scorer. I beleive he will never make a 1 PPG ration in his career. Maybe our expectaion when we saw him have a good streak increase a bit, or maybe because of the injury he got...since that time...hes not scoring at that ration he was...and were all kinda a bit dissapointed

I dont hate Higgins,and i really love him in our team..but christ...he miss ssoooo many time incredible scoring chance that Jan Bulis would have put it

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03-24-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHfan4ever View Post
He's good and i put him in the mold of a top excellent 2nd line scorer. I beleive he will never make a 1 PPG ration in his career. Maybe our expectaion when we saw him have a good streak increase a bit, or maybe because of the injury he got...since that time...hes not scoring at that ration he was...and were all kinda a bit dissapointed

I dont hate Higgins,and i really lvoe him in our team..but chrsit...he me ssoooo many time incredible scoring chance that Jan Bulis would have put it
There's a big difference between Jan Bulis and Chris Higgins. Work ethic was one. Another is the fact Jan Bulis was played in a third-line role which is what he was.. a third-line player. He however thought he was a first-liner and *****ed and moaned about it.

Higgins has said that he can be a 40-40 player but he has also said he will accept any role that the club will give him. Will Higgins ever be 40-40? Probably not. Is he a player every team wishes they had? Abso-****ing-lutely.

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:23 AM
  #19
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one thing you forget to mention in your stats is that while he's getting more points than the previous years he's also getting more PP points, meaning that 5 on 5 he didnt improve much...

you can say whatever you want about him being in the top 20 LW, but it means NOTHING... afterall, we did have a +/- 50 pts a season center on our 1st line, and it bring us nothing good...

now if you want to mention how good of a 2ND LINER he is, than we can talk

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:31 AM
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I think Higgins is doing a fine job considering he has been stuck with Koivu all year and hasn't had the same winger on a consistant basis. Just because Higgins couldn't hit the open net if it was 10 feet wide, doesn't mean he isn't playing well....he just can't score right now. As long as he does everything else right and keeps working hard, I could care less if he scores a ton of goals.....we are getting goals from other players on the team so it all evens out.

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:34 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
You know, you can make stats say pretty much anything if you manipulate them enough. My question to you is: are you watching the games? If so, you have to admit that Higgins is offensively inferior to Kostitsyn and that Andrei is the teams first line LW. That's pretty much all there is to it.
Agreed, but what I believe Nate and others were trying to say was that Higgins pace so far this season is at a 1st line left wingers level.

I consider Higgins a more complete player, but Higgins plateau scoring wise is much lower to Kostitsyn. I think Kostitsyn is going to have consistent 40 goals seasons later in his career, while Higgins might hit 40 once and then go back to 20-30 goal seasons. If I don't get that and Andrei only hits 30 or Higgins stays in the 20's? I'm fine with it.

People need to stop being disappointed at expectations when we're not yet paying a player to make them.

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:37 AM
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I think Higgins is comparable to a Brendan Morrow/Jere Lehtinen type player.

He's never going to get you elite player points.. But being aware and strong in his own end, being great on the PK, creating oppurtunities with his speed and being strong on the boards. With that an realistically potting 20-25-30 goals a season.

I just don't think people realize HOW valuable that is?

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Old
03-24-2008, 08:39 AM
  #23
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We've argued a few times on some issues natey but you're DEAD on with this one. People are way too hard on this guy. He needs time to work on his mental game before he fulfills all his potential.

No, he probably won't be a 45g scorer, but 30-35g and a solid 2-way game would be AWESOME for any team.

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Old
03-24-2008, 09:13 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Higgins will eventually find himself on a two-way third line.. maybe something like Higgins-Chipchura-D'Agostini.

That line will be a supreme shut-down force with the boardplay of Chipchura and Higgins. The smarts of all three players and the speed of Higgins and D'Ago. On top of that, all three of those players could end up being 20-30 goal scorers. If they are doing that on the third-line while still being shutdown players, that'll be so invaluable to this team moving forward.
Yep, that's what I think also, but I'd put Wyman instead of D'Agostini... he's bigger and better defensively (well I hope)...

MaxPac and Lats should be on the top 2 lines in 2 or 3 years with the Kost brothers, Pleks and hopefully a superstar like Hossa, Vinny... or Kovy (we never know he might be as good next year)

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Old
03-24-2008, 09:15 AM
  #25
ChuckyToGally
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Very good thread nakey...

When I was reading, I thought about something.

Koivu is not getting any younger so it might be time to put him on the 3rd line next season. We would need a big center who can score to play between Higgins and SKost.

We talked about him before but the more I think about it, Jeff Carter would be the perfect fit. If we forget the offer sheet for a minute, maybe the Flyers would prefer young (and cheap) established players to replace Carter.

I know some will not like it but Ryan O'Byrne would have to be part of this deal. The Flyers management are apparently really high on him. I think that we could also add Maxim Lapierre to this deal. With Carter on the team and Chipchura ready for the 4th line, Lapierre would be expandable. For the Flyers, they already have the centers they need for their first two lines. Mike Richards is their franchise player and say what you want, they need Daniel Brière to bounce back. So, it leaves them with Umberger for the 3rd line but apparently, they would prefer to use him as a winger. That's why Maxim Lapierre could be a fit for them. I think he's the kind of player they like. Then, add picks. Something like (before the draft or at the draft):

To MTL: Jeff Carter and PHI 2008 5th round pick

To PHI: Ryan O'Byrne, Maxim Lapierre and ANA 2009 2nd round pick

We keep the 1st line as they are right now, we play Carter between Higgins and SKostitsyn and we put Koivu on the 3rd line with Latendresse and ???.

What do you guys think? The way I see it, the Flyers don't want to rebuild so if they're not able to re-sign Carter, they might prefer that package than a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd.

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