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Downie or Tuukka Rask?

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Old
03-29-2008, 04:26 PM
  #51
Jester
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Rask's season with Providence isn't terribly impressive. He may be highly regarded, but I wouldn't say he's "starting to shine" is getting a bit too far with Rask.

Kari Lehtonen came over and faired far better in his first year in the AHL and he's far from a solidified top tier NHL goalie.

And Price >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rask as a prospect. So, lets not even make that comparison in the discussion.

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03-29-2008, 04:36 PM
  #52
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Downie is a hell of a player. A rare player too. He is a tough son of a biatch that can play. I think the flyers did pretty good getting him. Can't really compare these 2 players.

I guess it comes down to needs and although I can see the flyers needing a top goalie prospect in system then they should have gotten Rask but Downies stock and importance is just as good IMO.

Don't get me wrong I would rather have Rask because we need a goalie prospect. I am just saying Downie is a hell of a player.

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03-29-2008, 05:20 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Rask's season with Providence isn't terribly impressive. He may be highly regarded, but I wouldn't say he's "starting to shine" is getting a bit too far with Rask.

Kari Lehtonen came over and faired far better in his first year in the AHL and he's far from a solidified top tier NHL goalie.

And Price >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rask as a prospect. So, lets not even make that comparison in the discussion.
Have you seen Rask play...at all? Starting to shine may be bit of an overzealous compliment, but not far off. Also, if you check out the rankings for goalie prospects, Price, Rask, and Pogge were 1-2-3...and not always in that order depending on who was doing the rankings.

Sounds like you are basing your ranking on hindsight given what Price has done so far in the NHL?

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03-29-2008, 05:29 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Have you seen Rask play...at all? Starting to shine may be bit of an overzealous compliment, but not far off. Also, if you check out the rankings for goalie prospects, Price, Rask, and Pogge were 1-2-3...and not always in that order depending on who was doing the rankings.

Sounds like you are basing your ranking on hindsight given what Price has done so far in the NHL?
well, regardless of what pre-draft speculation was out there... Price went #5 and Rask went #21...that's a pretty big difference in talent evaluation--and, yes, I understand other factors enter in. moreover, suggesting that what has happened since then doesn't matter is utterly absurd. prospect values are CONSTANTLY changing as players develop. as of today, Price and Rask are very different players as far as evaluation... Price being a successful NHL goaltender, and Rask being an AHL goalie putting up relatively mediocre numbers as far a top-end goalie prospect in the AHL. So, hindsight matters. Mike Richards was more valuable a year after his draft than he was on draft day. That's the way these things work.

have I seen Rask play? No. have I read on him and know a bit about what is going on? Yes. do I know enough to know that his production in the AHL is a bit on the disappointing side and the B's have to be expecting a lot more out of him next year? yeah. he may really start to show something next year, but at this point he's a prospect with some upside. nothing wrong with that, but he's getting talked up a bit too much by some. goalies and pitchers are a ridiculous crapshoot, which is what JFF is pointing out.

HF backs up the fact that these two players (Price and Rask) are a different class of prospect as far as grading.

I would also point you to consider Pat Maroon as far as how one should think about prospects. On draft day he was an afterthought...now he's a pretty highly regarded prospect coming out of the OHL.

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03-29-2008, 05:59 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Have you seen Rask play...at all? Starting to shine may be bit of an overzealous compliment, but not far off. Also, if you check out the rankings for goalie prospects, Price, Rask, and Pogge were 1-2-3...and not always in that order depending on who was doing the rankings.

Sounds like you are basing your ranking on hindsight given what Price has done so far in the NHL?
Look man, I saw your stupid post in our other thread and this one isn't much better. I live in Boston, I've seen Rask play several times.

The fact that you're trying to compare Rask to Price is downright laughable, I wouldn't expect anything less from a Bruins fan though.

I made this thread as a fun conjecture. I didn't ask for Bruins fans to come in here and start madly pimping Rask. He's a very good prospect, but he is FAR from the finished thing. He's having a decent, but not great, season in the AHL. I'm willing to write it off somewhat to the fact that he's 21 and it's his first year over here.

But saying that he's "starting to shine" is a gross exaggeration.

RadioFlyer, I still think BB could have become a very good starter if handled properly. I mean, he was fantastic during that PO run before they brought in Cechmanek and started messing with his confidence.

BB is a confidence goalie, he needs it to be effective. I personally have a very low opinion of Lemelin (what has he done to help Nitty with the bad positioning/overaggressiveness and Biron's awful handling of shootouts?). If Bouch had been handled properly, I think he would have been a stud.

I won't argue about the other 2, but we have a great scouting system in general, we should be able to identify some good goalie prospects. I'd just like to see us take a goalie or two in the top 90 picks for once.

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03-29-2008, 07:57 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Look man, I saw your stupid post in our other thread and this one isn't much better. I live in Boston, I've seen Rask play several times.

The fact that you're trying to compare Rask to Price is downright laughable, I wouldn't expect anything less from a Bruins fan though.

I made this thread as a fun conjecture. I didn't ask for Bruins fans to come in here and start madly pimping Rask. He's a very good prospect, but he is FAR from the finished thing. He's having a decent, but not great, season in the AHL. I'm willing to write it off somewhat to the fact that he's 21 and it's his first year over here.

But saying that he's "starting to shine" is a gross exaggeration.

RadioFlyer, I still think BB could have become a very good starter if handled properly. I mean, he was fantastic during that PO run before they brought in Cechmanek and started messing with his confidence.

BB is a confidence goalie, he needs it to be effective. I personally have a very low opinion of Lemelin (what has he done to help Nitty with the bad positioning/overaggressiveness and Biron's awful handling of shootouts?). If Bouch had been handled properly, I think he would have been a stud.

I won't argue about the other 2, but we have a great scouting system in general, we should be able to identify some good goalie prospects. I'd just like to see us take a goalie or two in the top 90 picks for once.
If you have seen Rask play...enlighten me on what you think his strengths are and his weaknesses that he needs to improve on. That would be a little more constructive than just telling me that comparing Rask to Price is "laughable", great analysis there by the way. My post in the other thread was half-joking, hence the reply with the smiley.

Also, the goalie ratings I was referring to were last year (post-draft) and done by writers, not myself, so I was not the "stupid Bruin's fan" who was comparing Rask to Price. I'll write your piss-poor attitude off to the fact that your team is losing to the Isles, and the Caps are up 2-0. (edit: this was a pre-game post, so I guess you are just generally cranky?)

Can't wait for your expert opinion regarding Rask's pro's and cons, I'm sure it will be scintillating reading.

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03-29-2008, 09:35 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
If you have seen Rask play...enlighten me on what you think his strengths are and his weaknesses that he needs to improve on. That would be a little more constructive than just telling me that comparing Rask to Price is "laughable", great analysis there by the way. My post in the other thread was half-joking, hence the reply with the smiley.

Also, the goalie ratings I was referring to were last year (post-draft) and done by writers, not myself, so I was not the "stupid Bruin's fan" who was comparing Rask to Price. I'll write your piss-poor attitude off to the fact that your team is losing to the Isles, and the Caps are up 2-0. (edit: this was a pre-game post, so I guess you are just generally cranky?)

Can't wait for your expert opinion regarding Rask's pro's and cons, I'm sure it will be scintillating reading.
Yep, I'm a very cranky person. As for Rask, what do you want, it's basic young goaltender analysis.

He definitely has good size and takes up plenty of the net, also moves well from side to side, seems fairly calm. Mainly, from what I've seen and from what most scouts have said, the size and the lateral movement are his calling cards. An athletic goalie with good size is always nice.

Cons from what I've seen are basic correctable things. Mainly the fact that he doesn't play his angles at an NHL level and NHL shooters will find those holes. His technique hasn't been refined to NHL level yet, but that's why he's a young goalie.

I still don't see what rankings right after the draft have to do with anything. That draft was nearly 3 years ago, Price has already established himself as an NHL starter.

You can insult my "piss poor" attitude all you want, I'm not the one going to another team's board and saying they're lucky to come from behind late in games. I'm also not the one running onto the Bruins board to overhype one of the Flyers prospects.

I don't see why the Flyers board is so popular. I post on 2 boards, the Flyers one and the Soccer one and I read NHL Talk and Prospects boards. But it seems that opposing fans really can't get enough of coming over here. Must be all of our intelligence or something.

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03-29-2008, 10:02 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yep, I'm a very cranky person. As for Rask, what do you want, it's basic young goaltender analysis.

He definitely has good size and takes up plenty of the net, also moves well from side to side, seems fairly calm. Mainly, from what I've seen and from what most scouts have said, the size and the lateral movement are his calling cards. An athletic goalie with good size is always nice.

Cons from what I've seen are basic correctable things. Mainly the fact that he doesn't play his angles at an NHL level and NHL shooters will find those holes. His technique hasn't been refined to NHL level yet, but that's why he's a young goalie.

I still don't see what rankings right after the draft have to do with anything. That draft was nearly 3 years ago, Price has already established himself as an NHL starter.

You can insult my "piss poor" attitude all you want, I'm not the one going to another team's board and saying they're lucky to come from behind late in games. I'm also not the one running onto the Bruins board to overhype one of the Flyers prospects.

I don't see why the Flyers board is so popular. I post on 2 boards, the Flyers one and the Soccer one and I read NHL Talk and Prospects boards. But it seems that opposing fans really can't get enough of coming over here. Must be all of our intelligence or something.
The ratings I was referring to were done last year, not three years ago and in the other thread I was laughing (LOL) when I pointed out that posters on the B's board were also complaining about the lack of "help" from other teams in the playoff race, and didn't think I was being overly insulting. Teams don't typically win 3 of 4 games in OT/SO by coming back in the third period, eventually the law of averages catches up with you.

As far as "overhyping" Rask, if I am, it's slight, but that's not the point. I would have made the same argument if the thread had been written 8 months ago and said "Downie or Price". That was before he was even in the NHL, but the fact remains that it's much harder to find a potential stud goalie, than it is to find a borderline 2nd line wing. Hell, I'd say the same thing right now if the thread had said 'Downie or Pogge".

Your analysis of Rask was not too bad, but you could have gotten most of it from prospect rankings on this very sight, lol. His glove hand is excellent, and the "holes" you are referring to are probably due to the fact that he was unfamiliar with the NA stye of play on smaller rinks, and still plays too deep in his net. Once he matures, puts on a little weight, and begins to challenge shooters more conistently, those holes should disappear, and IMO, he will be right there with Price...but who knows?

At least I am over here attempting to have a decent discussion...instead of posting garbage like this:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=498093

Good night.

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03-29-2008, 10:04 PM
  #59
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the point you're missing is that Downie isn't in the same class as Price...nor is Rask.

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03-29-2008, 10:22 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
the point you're missing is that Downie isn't in the same class as Price...nor is Rask.
This guy's just a joker.

My analysis of Rask isn't too bad...

I love when idiots ask questions like that. Even if I gave him a 15 page detailed scouting report, he could just say, "Well, you probably found that on the Internet."

The dude is literally too scared to enter a real debate, so he asks these little questions where even if the other person answers, he can just defend himself by saying I found it on the Internet.

I love how I specifically refer to the fact that faults in his technique lead to holes that NHL shooters can exploit. He responds by saying, "well he plays too deep in his net." Really??? Do you think that maybe, he plays too deep in his net because he doesn't play his angles correctly? Like I just said?

No, that would be way too simple.

And yeah, I'm actually best friends with Lupul15 and I was totally supporting him when he made that stupid thread. Or I've never heard of him before and I can't control what he writes because this is the Internet. I wonder which one is true?

I keep on trying to keep an open mind on Bruins fans and retards like this make it so hard.

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03-29-2008, 10:26 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
Far be it from me to interject between the battle royale currently taking place between Biscuit and JFF....but are you kidding me!!??

Downie: a guy who's ceiling is second line wing (maybe, from a supporter), but most likely projects as a third line player, if he can manage to stay in the league, given his tendency for suspensions.

Rask: a kid who was regarded by many (along with Price), as the best goalie not in the NHL last year, at age 19-20. He carried his Finnish team to the playoffs, and was the first 19 yr old goalie to be a regular (30 games) in the Finnish Elite League (a legaue that has produced some of the best goalies in the NHL recently). This year, after adjusting to the NA game, his save% is at .905 and his GAA is down to 2.35 in PRO.

Golatenders are notoriously quirky and Rask is by no means a "sure thing", but given that goaltenders typically develop later than skaters, the fact that Rask is already starting to shine in the AHL at such a young age, gives him the nod over Downie. This is not a B's-Flyer thing, I would say the same thing if the comparison was between Downie and Price when he was still in the AHL.

The comparison between Toivenen and Rask may seem appropriate on the surface, but Rask is even younger, and seems to be far more confident and tougher mentally than Toivenen was. According to coaches, Rask is a much sounder goalie technically and relies far less on his reflexes than HT did. Also, look for the B's to handle Rask better than they did Toivenen. He will probably not see the NHL until Thomas' and Fernandez's contracts expire after 08-09.

A likely 3rd line player, or a potential #1 goalie at the age of 22? Hmmmmm...who would you rather have????
THANK YOU. That is basically all I have been trying to say yet somehow I have been lured into defending some sort of bizarre-o strategy of taking goalie after goalie and neglecting outstanding skaters or something.

Further, the opposition has stated that since goalies take time to develop, it's better to let another team develop them and make a trade for them. That is a strange argument (and an implausible one if more than one or two teams took it on), especially considering that the overwhelming majority of franchise guys could never be pried loose. You've got the rare logjam such as Sawchuk/Hall or Hasek/Belfour, but those situations are notable because of their rarity.

Am I saying Rask is a franchise guy? No, he is probably not. He is certainly not Price but I don't see how he's even brought in here, he is a very rare product and it puzzles me how he was not taken first or second when you see the position of Fleury, Montaya et al in recent years.

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03-29-2008, 10:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SmoothWithTheBiscuit View Post
You've got the rare logjam such as Sawchuk/Hall or Hasek/Belfour, but those situations are notable because of their rarity.
Well fortunately for us, the 'Nucks have the same thing with Schneider/Luongo, so hopefully we can hop on in and take advantage.

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03-29-2008, 10:38 PM
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Not if you listen to all the VAN/??? trade proposals in the trade/fa talk forum

We're in the same boat despite the difference of opinion, God, deliver us a stud goaltender!

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03-29-2008, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SmoothWithTheBiscuit View Post
Not if you listen to all the VAN/??? trade proposals in the trade/fa talk forum

We're in the same boat despite the difference of opinion, God, deliver us a stud goaltender!
good young goalies with potential are always floating around... you just need to bite on the right ones. Calgary did. Montoya just got moved...they're out there.

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03-29-2008, 10:52 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SmoothWithTheBiscuit View Post
Not if you listen to all the VAN/??? trade proposals in the trade/fa talk forum

We're in the same boat despite the difference of opinion, God, deliver us a stud goaltender!
Well, Van will want the moon and the stars for Schneider since is a stud prospect (better than Rask IMO after his AHL adjustment period).

The problem is that Nonis doesn't have much leverage since everyone and his mother knows Schneider is getting dealt within 18 months.

I don't care how the Flyers get goaltending prospects whether it be via a trade (I'd prefer this almost since we might be able to dump a little salary as well) or the draft. But we need them in the system.

As you say, God and/or Holmgren needs to deliver us a stud.

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03-29-2008, 11:45 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
good young goalies with potential are always floating around... you just need to bite on the right ones. Calgary did. Montoya just got moved...they're out there.
Yeah, Kipper was a steal, that San Jose system stays stacked with goalies though and they stay competitive, too.

Montoya, well, they had to give up a decent goalie prospect in return, though I admit I have seen little of LeNeveau. How is Montoya on the AHL level? His numbers look OK but I haven't seen him much at all outside of his UM career and the WJC, where I actually thought he was a bit of a reach at 6 overall. He didn't face much rubber at UM and I though him above average at the WJC (the year with Kessel and those guys, lockout year I guess).

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03-30-2008, 11:00 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
This guy's just a joker.

My analysis of Rask isn't too bad...

I love when idiots ask questions like that. Even if I gave him a 15 page detailed scouting report, he could just say, "Well, you probably found that on the Internet."

The dude is literally too scared to enter a real debate, so he asks these little questions where even if the other person answers, he can just defend himself by saying I found it on the Internet.

I love how I specifically refer to the fact that faults in his technique lead to holes that NHL shooters can exploit. He responds by saying, "well he plays too deep in his net." Really??? Do you think that maybe, he plays too deep in his net because he doesn't play his angles correctly? Like I just said?

No, that would be way too simple.

And yeah, I'm actually best friends with Lupul15 and I was totally supporting him when he made that stupid thread. Or I've never heard of him before and I can't control what he writes because this is the Internet. I wonder which one is true?

I keep on trying to keep an open mind on Bruins fans and retards like this make it so hard.
I'm a freakin joker? Are you telling me you could not get the basic "he moves well side to side BS" off this site? LMAO. I see, my simplistic analysis is garbage, but you do the same thing and it's golden?

Playing too deep in the net (with a Euro goalie) is not only about angles, it has to do with there being more room on international ice surfaces, particularly behind the net. They stay deep to protect the wrap-around and the increased chance of feeds from below the "icing line".

Also, you are the one making this into a BOS-PHI thing. I clearly said if this thread had said "Pogge or Downie" I would have voted Pogge because it is harder to find a potential #1 goalie, than a potential 2nd line wing.

I disagree with you and that constitutes not wanting to debate and being ********? Also, it's funny how you bash me for referencing another Flyer's fans thread (kind of stupidly, as you pointed out), but that does not stop you from making a similar reference about keeping an open mind about Bruins fans, when their opinions have nothing to do with mine.



ps If you just hit the "quote" button when you reply, it copies my post, and you don't have to keep typing things like "he responds by saying"...but I'm the ******.

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03-31-2008, 12:01 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
I'm a freakin joker? Are you telling me you could not get the basic "he moves well side to side BS" off this site? LMAO. I see, my simplistic analysis is garbage, but you do the same thing and it's golden?

Playing too deep in the net (with a Euro goalie) is not only about angles, it has to do with there being more room on international ice surfaces, particularly behind the net. They stay deep to protect the wrap-around and the increased chance of feeds from below the "icing line".

Also, you are the one making this into a BOS-PHI thing. I clearly said if this thread had said "Pogge or Downie" I would have voted Pogge because it is harder to find a potential #1 goalie, than a potential 2nd line wing.

I disagree with you and that constitutes not wanting to debate and being ********? Also, it's funny how you bash me for referencing another Flyer's fans thread (kind of stupidly, as you pointed out), but that does not stop you from making a similar reference about keeping an open mind about Bruins fans, when their opinions have nothing to do with mine.

ps If you just hit the "quote" button when you reply, it copies my post, and you don't have to keep typing things like "he responds by saying"...but I'm the ******.
"It's the Idiot Parade!"

I think I'll just let this one die in the interests of averting a flamewar.

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03-31-2008, 07:27 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Rask's season with Providence isn't terribly impressive. He may be highly regarded, but I wouldn't say he's "starting to shine" is getting a bit too far with Rask.
Especially when you consider that he plays behind the best team in the AHL.

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05-05-2010, 10:40 PM
  #70
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I am so rarely right about these things (according to my wife) that when I am, I have to just take a second to point them out.

After watching Rask frustrate PHI all game, my mind drifted back to a discussion/debate that I had with a couple of Flyer's fans two years ago about Rask being a better prospect than Downie, and being on par with Carey (Jesus) Price, who at the time could do no wrong. When I tried to say that Rask was rated (by hockey writers) very closely to Price, I was told that I was an idiot and a ****** (although I believe the correct term was mentally challenged at the time?)

Chalk one up for the "****** fan from Boston".

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05-05-2010, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
I am so rarely right about these things (according to my wife) that when I am, I have to just take a second to point them out.

After watching Rask frustrate PHI all game, my mind drifted back to a discussion/debate that I had with a couple of Flyer's fans two years ago about Rask being a better prospect than Downie, and being on par with Carey (Jesus) Price, who at the time could do no wrong. When I tried to say that Rask was rated (by hockey writers) very closely to Price, I was told that I was an idiot and a ****** (although I believe the correct term was mentally challenged at the time?)

Chalk one up for the "****** fan from Boston".
Rask didnt frustrate us. Your lucky bounces, however, did.

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05-05-2010, 10:58 PM
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The Scarecrow
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
I am so rarely right about these things (according to my wife) that when I am, I have to just take a second to point them out.

After watching Rask frustrate PHI all game, my mind drifted back to a discussion/debate that I had with a couple of Flyer's fans two years ago about Rask being a better prospect than Downie, and being on par with Carey (Jesus) Price, who at the time could do no wrong. When I tried to say that Rask was rated (by hockey writers) very closely to Price, I was told that I was an idiot and a ****** (although I believe the correct term was mentally challenged at the time?)

Chalk one up for the "****** fan from Boston".
A VERY amusing read. Thanks for the thread necromancy Glory.

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05-05-2010, 11:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
Rask didnt frustrate us. Your lucky bounces, however, did.
Yup...and Rask led the NHL in GAA and Save % this regular season because he got lucky bounces in every game

I'm hoping he just stays lucky for the next decade and a half.

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05-05-2010, 11:03 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Empty Factory View Post
A VERY amusing read. Thanks for the thread necromancy Glory.
The interesting thing is that Downie has turned out to be a damn good player in Tampa, Price has struggled, and Pogge has disappeared (I was wrong about him being a better prospect than Downey, lol). If I had to rank them today, it would be:

Rask

Downie

Price

Pogge

We will have to revisit this again in two years

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05-05-2010, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
I am so rarely right about these things (according to my wife) that when I am, I have to just take a second to point them out.

After watching Rask frustrate PHI all game, my mind drifted back to a discussion/debate that I had with a couple of Flyer's fans two years ago about Rask being a better prospect than Downie, and being on par with Carey (Jesus) Price, who at the time could do no wrong. When I tried to say that Rask was rated (by hockey writers) very closely to Price, I was told that I was an idiot and a ****** (although I believe the correct term was mentally challenged at the time?)

Chalk one up for the "****** fan from Boston".
lmao

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