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ATD #9 Part 2

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:05 AM
  #51
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Transplanted Caper View Post
67's select Syl Apps
Very nice pick, and not a very surprising pick for a Leafs fan. Syl Apps Sr. was my selection it I kept the pick.

Only looking at the stats:

Calder Memorial Trophy (1937)
First All-Star Team Centre (1939, 1942)
Lady Byng Memorial Trophy (1942)
Second All-Star Team Centre (1938, 1941, 1943)

... very slightly over a point in regular, about .85 in playoffs. No Hart, no Art Ross, no Rocket Richard. Nice career, great players, but hardly a good selection at #62.

Well your clearly wrong. When you look a closer look at his career, you see:

A retro Conn Smythe in 1942
3 times Art Ross runner + a 6th and 7th position
3 times Hart runner up + 2 3rd place
2 time Lady Bing runner up + 2 3rd place and a 4th.

I'm calling him the eternal 2nd place. Yea right, he never won a big award, but what is amazing is that he's incredibly well in his 6 year peak with constancy. His peak was also cut becasue of the war.

Oh ya, didn't talked about his incredible leadership abilities, a true captain. A great person.

Amazing pick


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 03-28-2008 at 10:11 AM.
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Old
03-28-2008, 10:16 AM
  #52
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The trade down is a bit of a gamble I concur, but I feel like it's a good trade for my team.

I won't pick before pick #82, and my only selection so far is Red Kelly at #20. But after that:

82nd, 84th, 87th, 113rd, 125th, 189th, 196th, 208th. 6 Pick in the top-125, 9 pick in the top-210.

Hit or miss. Well see if I made good picks and have a chance for the championship after those 9 picks.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:23 AM
  #53
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Confirmed.

The Scouts are pleased to select a player whom they felt bad watching wallow in the green room as player after player were called up to the podium. At the urging of Mr.Horton, the Scouts select Johnny Bower.
Boo!!!!

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:27 AM
  #54
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Ok, someone please tell me how incredible is Johnny Bower. I'm reading on him, looking at his stats and reading again, and I have him about 15th overall on my all-time goaltenders list. I need input as to why Bower is a superb pick as the 10th goaltender taken, 61st overall.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:32 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Ok, someone please tell me how incredible is Johnny Bower. I'm reading on him, looking at his stats and reading again, and I have him about 15th overall on my all-time goaltenders list. I need input as to why Bower is a superb pick as the 10th goaltender taken, 61st overall.
Playoffs. He was money in the post-season. Four rings. Big part of three of them. Why is Billy Smith picked so high, even though he topped 50 games played in the regular season once in his career? Playoffs. Why is Turk Broda always picked so high? Playoffs.

Bower's regular season numbers are impressive. His trophy case would be more impressive if it weren't for his competition. I think every No. 1 goalie in the league in Bower's prime - early-to-mid 60s - is in the HHOF. Just winning a Vezina, or getting a first-team all-star birth in that stretch was HHOF-worthy.

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03-28-2008, 10:33 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Ok, someone please tell me how incredible is Johnny Bower. I'm reading on him, looking at his stats and reading again, and I have him about 15th overall on my all-time goaltenders list. I need input as to why Bower is a superb pick as the 10th goaltender taken, 61st overall.
He was actually the 13th goalie.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:40 AM
  #57
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Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Glenn Hall
Terry Sawchuk
Ken Dryden
Vladislav Tretiak
Bill Durnan
Turk Broda
Bernard Parent
Billy Smith
Clint Benedict

Damn, already 13rd goaltenders? Wow ok you're right I thought a little less were selected.

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03-28-2008, 10:45 AM
  #58
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lada selects D sprague cleghorn.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:48 AM
  #59
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lada selects D sprague cleghorn.
I little buddy to protect Wayne I see

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:53 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I little buddy to protect Wayne I see
partly. but also the best remaining D. great at both ends.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:55 AM
  #61
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lada selects D sprague cleghorn.
Maybe it's just me, but I think he's better than Leetch, MacInnis and Stevens. Agreed that he's the best defenceman available.

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Old
03-28-2008, 10:59 AM
  #62
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Maybe it's just me, but I think he's better than Leetch, MacInnis and Stevens. Agreed that he's the best defenceman available.
Really? Never been a fan of either Leetch and MacInnis (none of them should be selected in the top-60 IMO), but Stevens is pretty much the Sprague Cleghorn of the 90's. Very similar if you ask me.

Anyway, there's still a defenseman on the board I would rate higher than Cleghorn, MacInnis and Leetch, and only behind Stevens.

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03-28-2008, 11:00 AM
  #63
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Maybe it's just me, but I think he's better than Leetch, MacInnis and Stevens. Agreed that he's the best defenceman available.
I don't know about Leetch, but I agree 100% about everything else.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:15 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Really? Never been a fan of either Leetch and MacInnis (none of them should be selected in the top-60 IMO), but Stevens is pretty much the Sprague Cleghorn of the 90's. Very similar if you ask me.
cleghorn's offensive ability and skating, not to mention psychopathology, are beyond stevens'.

Quote:
Anyway, there's still a defenseman on the board I would rate higher than Cleghorn, MacInnis and Leetch, and only behind Stevens.
we might be thinking of the same person. i went back and forth between 2 d-men. i decided cleghorn b/c he's more complete.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:24 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Stevens is pretty much the Sprague Cleghorn of the 90's. Very similar if you ask me.
Even for his time, Cleghorn was pretty small. Strong, sure, but it's an issue. I'm not nearly as comfortable with the idea of Cleghorn trying to clear some of the bigger forwards from the crease as I am with Stevens.

The discipline thing is a negative for me, as well, and though Cleghorn was certainly a rough customer (cough...thug...cough), I don't think we should put him in the same category as a pure, intimidating hitter as Stevens.

On the other hand, Cleghorn was considerably faster and had more offensive skill relative to his peers. In the end, I think they're quite different players, actually. I rate Stevens higher.

Man...the old-timey guys are getting a lot of love this time around.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:28 AM
  #66
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Man...the old-timey guys are getting a lot of love this time around.
No kidding. My teams used to be filled with them because they were so underappreciated (and undervalued), but now they're starting to go where they should.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:34 AM
  #67
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I absolutely refuse to draft Cleghorn. I don't know exactly how comparable MacInnis is to Sprague (I don't think anyone knows for sure), but what I do know is that my guy isn't going to do something proundly stupid and selfish that may end up hurting his team in the long run.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:37 AM
  #68
nik jr
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Even for his time, Cleghorn was pretty small. Strong, sure, but it's an issue. I'm not nearly as comfortable with the idea of Cleghorn trying to clear some of the bigger forwards from the crease as I am with Stevens.

The discipline thing is a negative for me, as well, and though Cleghorn was certainly a rough customer (cough...thug...cough), I don't think we should put him in the same category as a pure, intimidating hitter as Stevens.

On the other hand, Cleghorn was considerably faster and had more offensive skill relative to his peers. In the end, I think they're quite different players, actually. I rate Stevens higher.

Man...the old-timey guys are getting a lot of love this time around.
i generally agree, except i don't see how cleghorn was small for his time. 5'10, basically the same size as shore. pretty small for the 20s would be around 5'6.
it seems most of the players bigger than cleghorn were physical D.

similar to shore, cleghorn's only weakness was his violence and tendency to take penalties.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:40 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
I absolutely refuse to draft Cleghorn. I don't know exactly how comparable MacInnis is to Sprague (I don't think anyone knows for sure), but what I do know is that my guy isn't going to do something proundly stupid and selfish that may end up hurting his team in the long run.
Hmmm...then I can think of another prominent defenseman you won't be drafting.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:42 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i generally agree, except i don't see how cleghorn was small for his time. 5'10, basically the same size as shore. pretty small for the 20s would be around 5'6.
it seems most of the players bigger than cleghorn were physical D.

similar to shore, cleghorn's only weakness was his violence and tendency to take penalties.
I don't think size is an issue with Claghorn. 5'10" for a defenceman isn't that small. He's only a couple inches shorter than Orr. He's near the size of Shore and Harvey, and close to Bourque's height. Chelios is about six feet tall, too. (I think there's some exaggeration with Chelios' height).

Claghorn's not going to win any popularity contests around here, or anywhere else, for that matter. But I have him firmly entrenched as one of the top 20 defencemen of all-time. There wasn't anything he couldn't do. Outstanding skater, very strong, very creative offensively, mean, tough, aggressive, defensively sound - the guy could do it all.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:44 AM
  #71
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i generally agree, except i don't see how cleghorn was small for his time. 5'10, basically the same size as shore.
Was Cleghorn really 5'10"? Could you give me a link to that? Not questioning your sources, just I thought he was more like 5'8". As far as I know, Eddie Shore was an even six feet, making him a big man for his era. Cleghorn at 5'10" would actually be slightly above average, I think, but I'd like to see some kind of link.

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03-28-2008, 11:53 AM
  #72
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Hmmm...ok. I couldn't find any listing of Cleghorn's size, but I did find a picture of the 24-25 Habs:



I'm fairly certain Sprague is the guy two to the right of Vezina (obviously the goalie in the middle). He looks like he's...yeah...a bit above average in size. Ok, I stand corrected. Nevertheless, not quite the bruiser that Stevens was.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:55 AM
  #73
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Hockeydb lists Cleghorn at 5'10.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=1024

Ultimate Hockey has sizes as well (they're usually similar to hockeydb though), I can check it when I get home from school.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:57 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
Hockeydb lists Cleghorn at 5'10.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php3?pid=1024

Ultimate Hockey has sizes as well (they're usually similar to hockeydb though), I can check it when I get home from school.
His Legends of Hockey bio refers to him as the original "Big Train." So I think there's something to the 5'10" listing.

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Old
03-28-2008, 11:59 AM
  #75
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Hockeydb lists Cleghorn at 5'10.
I don't entirely trust their size listings (I can't really mention specifics right now), which is I guess why I skipped looking there, entirely. Still, it appears to be correct in this case.

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