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Jagr: Declining Skills or Lasting Injury?

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Old
04-01-2008, 10:50 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
The guy is underperforming, but to those who want to run him out of town after the season is over let me ask you this.

Which one of our up and coming youth at forward, or just forwards overall, do you want to face the coverage that he gets?

Do you really want Dubinsky to be the one to get mugged by Komisarek, Gill, Orpik, Chara and all the other monsters in the league? I'd want to give Dubi the possible chance to develop in his second year. Don't think sending him out there to deal with those guys is the smartest thing. Don't even want to think of what a disaster it would be for any of our smaller guys or Cherepanov if he comes over (Drury, Gomez, Dawes).

100+ point Jagr or not, he takes alot of the focus away from our other forwards, and if he leaves, someone who we'd rather not is going to have to receive that abuse.

I don't care if Jagr gets only 50 points next year - as long as defenders are preoccupied with knocking him on his ass and hanging on him rather than someone else. He expects it, knows how to handle it, and does pretty well all things considered.
I understand where your coming from, but his game is so limited now. Its not like Drury, who only has around 50 points, but has been an absolute freakin' STUD when it comes to the defensive zone. He can't block shots, hit people, or play really good D in general.

So like I said, I understand, but the man is only good for puck control, a goal here and there, and an occasional nice set-up nowadays.

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04-01-2008, 11:06 AM
  #102
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The question regarding Jagr that has gone unanswered numerous times by the haters is "Who is going to replace him?" Sure, you can grab a free agent that can replace his offensive production, but more specifically, whose going to absorb the same punishment every single night. Jagr is still an absolute bull on the boards...although declining he still makes handling top defenseman in the NHL's physicality look relatively easy.

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04-01-2008, 11:31 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
The question regarding Jagr that has gone unanswered numerous times by the haters is "Who is going to replace him?"
I don't understand this notion that the '07/'08 version of Jagr is irreplaceable because he takes the abuse dealt out by Ranger opponents really well. How is it rational reasoning to retain the services of someone who shows no chemistry with anyone on the team and can't produce the offense that they desperately need from the top line.?

As of July 1st, the holes to be filled on the wings are going to be gaping and multiple. Whether Jagr can still fill one of those holes remains to be seen, but for sure, the Rangers NEED to find wingers that are far more productive playing with Gomez and Drury than anyone currently holding down the job. I have not considered who that might be, so all I can advocate right now is keeping all options open.

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04-01-2008, 12:26 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
whose going to absorb the same punishment every single night. Jagr is still an absolute bull on the boards...although declining he still makes handling top defenseman in the NHL's physicality look relatively easy.
What are you talking about he coughs up the puck 90% of the time.

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04-01-2008, 12:34 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I don't understand this notion that the '07/'08 version of Jagr is irreplaceable because he takes the abuse dealt out by Ranger opponents really well. How is it rational reasoning to retain the services of someone who shows no chemistry with anyone on the team and can't produce the offense that they desperately need from the top line.?

As of July 1st, the holes to be filled on the wings are going to be gaping and multiple. Whether Jagr can still fill one of those holes remains to be seen, but for sure, the Rangers NEED to find wingers that are far more productive playing with Gomez and Drury than anyone currently holding down the job. I have not considered who that might be, so all I can advocate right now is keeping all options open.
Would you rather overpay for a FA in a long-term deal, or retain Jagr at a salary equivalent (5-6 million) to this year's production in a short-term, one-two year deal?

I'd rather wait it out with Jagr and use him as a stop gap, especially during a down UFA season and crop, and either wait until the right FA comes along or our youth steps in (Cherepanov, Anisimov) and gives us a shot in the arm. Maybe make a trade?

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Old
04-01-2008, 12:47 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by segmentation fault View Post
What are you talking about he coughs up the puck 90% of the time.

Sure he does. Try watching a game impartially and then get back to us.

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04-01-2008, 01:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
Would you rather overpay for a FA in a long-term deal, or retain Jagr at a salary equivalent (5-6 million) to this year's production in a short-term, one-two year deal?
Assuming the UFA is someone who I think would really thrive on the team, I take the UFA.

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04-01-2008, 02:23 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I don't understand this notion that the '07/'08 version of Jagr is irreplaceable because he takes the abuse dealt out by Ranger opponents really well. How is it rational reasoning to retain the services of someone who shows no chemistry with anyone on the team and can't produce the offense that they desperately need from the top line.?

As of July 1st, the holes to be filled on the wings are going to be gaping and multiple. Whether Jagr can still fill one of those holes remains to be seen, but for sure, the Rangers NEED to find wingers that are far more productive playing with Gomez and Drury than anyone currently holding down the job. I have not considered who that might be, so all I can advocate right now is keeping all options open.
I agree you have to figure that Cherry & Bouret are at best still a year away from breaking into the NHL, most likley 2. Dawes Cally & Prucha will get there 15 to 25 goals a pice & thats nice too, but we need the game breaker that Jagr was. I think Shanny & Straka are gone next year, can't afford to carry aging stars that don't produce the way there contracts dictate.

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04-01-2008, 05:01 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Balej20 View Post
I hope he retires. And you calling him the 2nd best forward on this team is laughable. Let's see, I'll name all the forwards that are better than him on this team right now.

Gomez
Dubinsky
Drury
Avery
Shanahan is on par with him
Rozsival is a better forward than he is
Dawes can atleast score in the shoot out
Callahan atleast hits and tries hard
Betts is more valuable

I just hope this guy retires at the end of the year. I really do. He drags down this team so much.
This statement is a joke. Entirely. Obviously you (A) Don't watch Ranger games (B) You're severely underestimating Jaromir Jagr's production or (C) Don't know the fundamentals of winning games.

Jaromir has 21G 45A, fact is 66PTS. The FACT is that it ranks him as one of the top 50 most PRODUCTIVE forwards in the NHL in the 2007-2008 season. The FACT is that he is the most balanced point getter on the team and second on the team total in PTS. The FACT is that any team would openly welcome a player that can put up 70PTS in a season.

He doesn't skate some games. True. Sometimes it doesn't look like he cares. True. He's lost confidence while carrying the puck and shooting the puck on the power play. True. The FACT is that the Rangers are only in the Playoffs by a matter of mere points and the FACT is that if you take away the second leading scorer on the team you would not have a team in the Playoffs right now. Jagr, half assing it, is more productive that 85% of all NHL players, passion in the game or not.

Oh and a lot of Dubinsky's growth as a player, that kid that everyone loves on the Rangers for his hard work ethic, hard hitting, scoring potential, etc; has really grown from playing with JAGR and that much is pretty evident, especially with how Dubinsky guards the puck. Jeze, I'm not saying Jagr is team MVP this year because he hasn't been at all. The fact is, for a team so shallow in offense, if you take him out of the picture, the team scores even less goals.

And don't even get me started on Rozy, if we re-sign him I'm going to lose it. We need a real premier defenseman, not a second pair defenseman who we forced into a first pair position that hasn't scored in 20+ games.

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04-01-2008, 05:34 PM
  #110
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I've complained a lot about jagr all season, and it has to do with one simple fact........HE IS LAZY AND TAKES SHIFTS OFF!!!

You know how we can all end this argument...watch a Ranger game on MSG. Ever notice every fourth of fifth game, Joe (who's an idiot) and Sam (who i trust immensely) will say about 10 mins into the game: "Man, Jagr's really flying tonight" or "Jagr really came to play tonight"...etc. etc.

If he's the Captain of the team......HE SHOULD DO IT EVERY GAME, to the point where the announcers wouldn't have to point out that he's "flying"....and when he is "flying"....the most that comes out of his extra effort is either a drawn penalty or a shot on goal, usually wide or into the goalie's chest.

Guys, i love him for ressurecting the franchise and showing us his brilliance. I am a Jagr fan, and i know he has it tough with all the attention he gets from opponents.

But he's done. Finished. After this season, i think it's time for the organization, an organization who helped him find his game again, to part ways

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04-01-2008, 10:54 PM
  #111
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21 Goals....45 assists a plus 7...on what HE will even tell you is a less than stellar season! Those who think he is done are delusional. He is not the same player of 2 seasons ago...but he is still the guy who draws the oppositions shut down line and best defensive players night in and night out! He is the reason Gomez gets to have the season he is having, or else he would be getting the top defensive pair from the other team every night. I am quite sure that JJ can still produce at a better level than he has this season! That said, he is second on the team in scoring in an admittedly bad season for him! If he is willing to come back at a reasonable number for a player of his talent level.....I'm all for it. There is not a single other player on this team capable of providing the skills he displays on the ice......and I am sick and tired of the lack of respect that is heaped upon him night in and night out by some folks on this board. He has CHANGED HIS GAME trying to fit into this teams offense and people want to bash him! You don't purchase a Ferrari to drive 55, yet that is exactly what has been done with Jagr....they brought in a scoring MACHINE, and put a governor on it, and along with that, they went from supporting that expensive import with top mechanics...to sending it to Meineke for just basic maintenance with the local BOCES grad! The guy has kept his mouth shut and done what he has been asked to do .....even though it was in many ways foreign to the way he has played the game for his entire life prior. Why are none of you haters seeing this?

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04-02-2008, 01:31 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedrngrblue View Post
21 Goals....45 assists a plus 7...on what HE will even tell you is a less than stellar season! Those who think he is done are delusional. He is not the same player of 2 seasons ago...but he is still the guy who draws the oppositions shut down line and best defensive players night in and night out! He is the reason Gomez gets to have the season he is having, or else he would be getting the top defensive pair from the other team every night. I am quite sure that JJ can still produce at a better level than he has this season! That said, he is second on the team in scoring in an admittedly bad season for him! If he is willing to come back at a reasonable number for a player of his talent level.....I'm all for it. There is not a single other player on this team capable of providing the skills he displays on the ice......and I am sick and tired of the lack of respect that is heaped upon him night in and night out by some folks on this board. He has CHANGED HIS GAME trying to fit into this teams offense and people want to bash him! You don't purchase a Ferrari to drive 55, yet that is exactly what has been done with Jagr....they brought in a scoring MACHINE, and put a governor on it, and along with that, they went from supporting that expensive import with top mechanics...to sending it to Meineke for just basic maintenance with the local BOCES grad! The guy has kept his mouth shut and done what he has been asked to do .....even though it was in many ways foreign to the way he has played the game for his entire life prior. Why are none of you haters seeing this?
Thank you man. I went through this thread and I must say that I am stunned by some comments about JJ in this thread and others the whole season. Bolded text is very important in my opinion and I am sorry for all the guys who are not able to accept it OR understand it.

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04-02-2008, 05:32 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedrngrblue View Post
21 Goals....45 assists a plus 7...on what HE will even tell you is a less than stellar season! Those who think he is done are delusional. He is not the same player of 2 seasons ago...but he is still the guy who draws the oppositions shut down line and best defensive players night in and night out! He is the reason Gomez gets to have the season he is having, or else he would be getting the top defensive pair from the other team every night. I am quite sure that JJ can still produce at a better level than he has this season! That said, he is second on the team in scoring in an admittedly bad season for him! If he is willing to come back at a reasonable number for a player of his talent level.....I'm all for it. There is not a single other player on this team capable of providing the skills he displays on the ice......and I am sick and tired of the lack of respect that is heaped upon him night in and night out by some folks on this board. He has CHANGED HIS GAME trying to fit into this teams offense and people want to bash him! You don't purchase a Ferrari to drive 55, yet that is exactly what has been done with Jagr....they brought in a scoring MACHINE, and put a governor on it, and along with that, they went from supporting that expensive import with top mechanics...to sending it to Meineke for just basic maintenance with the local BOCES grad! The guy has kept his mouth shut and done what he has been asked to do .....even though it was in many ways foreign to the way he has played the game for his entire life prior. Why are none of you haters seeing this?
Cliche time.

You hit the nail on the head.

The last time he was asked to play this way he also struggled offensively (his last year in Pitt and while in Washington) And while he pouted and claimed "I'm dying alive" at those 2 previous locations, he's done nothing of the sort here in NY.

I would love to have him back next season, but I'm not sure he is going to want to come back with the style of play that we employ. I know he's said it a thousand times, but he needs to be in a system that allows for alot more freedom offensively. OR he needs players that can support him offensively while being just as good defensively so that they can cover for any mistakes he makes.

He's getting older, his skills are going to decline, I would have preferred a better season than 60-70 points, but even that's not a bad number.

Jagr at 4.5 million with attainable bonuses (he's reached that age) for 2 years is fine by me.

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04-02-2008, 06:34 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by bleedrngrblue View Post
21 Goals....45 assists a plus 7...on what HE will even tell you is a less than stellar season! Those who think he is done are delusional. He is not the same player of 2 seasons ago...but he is still the guy who draws the oppositions shut down line and best defensive players night in and night out! He is the reason Gomez gets to have the season he is having, or else he would be getting the top defensive pair from the other team every night. I am quite sure that JJ can still produce at a better level than he has this season! That said, he is second on the team in scoring in an admittedly bad season for him! If he is willing to come back at a reasonable number for a player of his talent level.....I'm all for it. There is not a single other player on this team capable of providing the skills he displays on the ice......and I am sick and tired of the lack of respect that is heaped upon him night in and night out by some folks on this board. He has CHANGED HIS GAME trying to fit into this teams offense and people want to bash him! You don't purchase a Ferrari to drive 55, yet that is exactly what has been done with Jagr....they brought in a scoring MACHINE, and put a governor on it, and along with that, they went from supporting that expensive import with top mechanics...to sending it to Meineke for just basic maintenance with the local BOCES grad! The guy has kept his mouth shut and done what he has been asked to do .....even though it was in many ways foreign to the way he has played the game for his entire life prior. Why are none of you haters seeing this?
Thumbs up.

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04-02-2008, 06:51 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DarrenTurcotte8 View Post
I've complained a lot about jagr all season, and it has to do with one simple fact........HE IS LAZY AND TAKES SHIFTS OFF!!!

You know how we can all end this argument...watch a Ranger game on MSG. Ever notice every fourth of fifth game, Joe (who's an idiot) and Sam (who i trust immensely) will say about 10 mins into the game: "Man, Jagr's really flying tonight" or "Jagr really came to play tonight"...etc. etc.

If he's the Captain of the team......HE SHOULD DO IT EVERY GAME, to the point where the announcers wouldn't have to point out that he's "flying"....and when he is "flying"....the most that comes out of his extra effort is either a drawn penalty or a shot on goal, usually wide or into the goalie's chest.

Guys, i love him for ressurecting the franchise and showing us his brilliance. I am a Jagr fan, and i know he has it tough with all the attention he gets from opponents.

But he's done. Finished. After this season, i think it's time for the organization, an organization who helped him find his game again, to part ways
I agree with this, and its his laziness that is the main problem; whether he complains or not, whether he is suffering because he's playing a style he's not comfortable with, he's not producing like he should be, and he obviously doesnt care (more often than not) out on the ice. As long as he's here, it seems, he'll be Renney's obligatory captain, but for the reasons stated above, that needs to change. Its not good for the team. We all know someone like Shanahan or Drury would be better suited for it.

Not that he doesn't do good things for the Rangers, but its time to move forward. Neither he or Sather will say it at this point, obviously, but I think they both see the writing on the wall. When the season ends, regardless of where we finish, I expect Jagr to call it a career in the NHL. He'll be happier in Omsk - its best for all parties involved to let him go.

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04-02-2008, 08:20 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Lundqvist Saves View Post
I agree with this, and its his laziness that is the main problem; whether he complains or not, whether he is suffering because he's playing a style he's not comfortable with, he's not producing like he should be, and he obviously doesnt care (more often than not) out on the ice. As long as he's here, it seems, he'll be Renney's obligatory captain, but for the reasons stated above, that needs to change. Its not good for the team. We all know someone like Shanahan or Drury would be better suited for it.

Not that he doesn't do good things for the Rangers, but its time to move forward. Neither he or Sather will say it at this point, obviously, but I think they both see the writing on the wall. When the season ends, regardless of where we finish, I expect Jagr to call it a career in the NHL. He'll be happier in Omsk - its best for all parties involved to let him go.
That's your opinion and that's fine....but who comes in, takes the heat, and keeps the rest of the team (Specifically Gomez and Drury) from having to deal with the best dmen and shut down lines on opposing teams? Who picks up the slack for Jagrs scoring? In a poor season by his standards and ours pointswise....he is still second on this team in scoring! There are maybe 4 or 5 players off the top of my head who can handle the pressure of NY and do the things Jagr can do, as well as score at least at the pace he has this season not named Ovechkin or Crosby!

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04-04-2008, 12:36 AM
  #117
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I personally can acknowledge two facts involving Jagr:

1. He's not and will not be the player we remember who broke Ranger records.

2. Being a 25-30 goal, 70-80 point player isn't bad at all.

If he can accept a role where he's not the man anymore, which he seems okay with, and is willing to sign for a reasonable contract; I am okay with re-signing him.

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04-04-2008, 01:31 AM
  #118
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Boy would he look good with Hemsky and Horcoff.

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04-04-2008, 01:57 AM
  #119
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I'd like to keep him next season but I don't see him letting go of that "C" 'til he's gone.

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04-05-2008, 10:25 AM
  #120
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Didn't want to start a whole new Jagr thread...so I'll lay it out here. The washed up 36 year old is now tied for first on the team in points with one more game played than Gomez..........tied for first on the team in goals scored with Drury........and has a better +/- than either of them! All this while having an admittedly bad season by him and by our harsh standards. All you bashers need to learn a little something from this....there is no denying greatness...the cream will always rise to the top...and Jagr has definitely stepped it up considerably from earlier this season. I can only surmise that he has not been fully healthy and was still recovering from the shoulder injury. The shot and confidence have defininitely taken a turn for the better. As a result I have much higher expectations for this team in the playoffs. The Jagr we have seen here these last two or three games....is the Jagr who can turn a game at will in a matter of minutes...and lucky for us he has shown up at the right time. Seeing his passion out there recently....I have a hard time NOT believing he will be back next season....regardless the outcome this season. He truly seems to LOVE it here...and I think the coaching staff and Slats truly admire what he has done here for the sake of the team....regardless of the stat sheet. I know I do !

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