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Green/Clement Criticize Martin, Panthers Organization

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Old
04-05-2008, 11:39 PM
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Montsy14
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Green/Clement Criticize Martin, Panthers Organization

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/panther...hers_0406.html

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04-06-2008, 12:39 AM
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All I can pretty much say is WOW. I cant say I totally disagree with them. This team does need a makeover, but do they need it from head to toe? There are people that are in the organization that have done good, and while I thought that Yormark turned the BAC into the yellowpages, it seems that is going on around the league. I think the team needs the following:

a hockey-minded president (ala Bill Torrey)
" " " GM who is not the coach (Martin is decent, but must prove a lot this summer)
a new head coach

I dont think our drafts have been that bad the past couple of years. And it looks like our minor league is starting to build itself up. So there are some things that I dont agree with in the article. But all in all, maybe a facelift would do a lot to this organization.

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04-06-2008, 01:02 AM
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They were off track on some things, as to be expected, but they are right about Yormark. When you have a president who only handles the business side of things and isn't a hockey man, that's never good. First and foremost, having a hockey man running things would eliminate, or at least limit, Cohen's interference with the hockey operations.

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04-06-2008, 02:07 AM
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Good, this puts more pressure on Cohen to make some changes, whatever they may be. I don't buy into Martin being able to build a really strong team. I think we'd be better off in another direction.

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04-06-2008, 03:01 AM
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Dead on! Loved every part of that story. Nice to see people outside the rose colored zone speaking whats been obvious for some time. This franchise is in ruins and everyone who disagrees has loser denial ala adam sandler in billy madison.

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04-06-2008, 03:18 AM
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Martin needs to stay... Certain players need to go.... People that look down on the southeast and Panthers for a living need to shut their pie hole...

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04-06-2008, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Martin needs to stay... Certain players need to go.... People that look down on the southeast and Panthers for a living need to shut their pie hole...
Why? Because the panthers shut up the naysayers with another playoff birth........ 7 years and counting right and 3 for Jerk Martin

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04-06-2008, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Why? Because the panthers shut up the naysayers with another playoff birth........ 7 years and counting right and 3 for Jerk Martin
I'm entitled to my opinion and have explained my reasoning numerous times.

Players need to match a system. Ours don't and never will if we change the system every 2-3 years.

Martin's a jerk?

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04-06-2008, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Why? Because the panthers shut up the naysayers with another playoff birth........ 7 years and counting right and 3 for Jerk Martin
The problem is that the naysayers don't really know what they're talking about. Things like "3 years for Martin" and pinning responsibility on him for the Luongo trade kinda send their credibility into the negatives as far as I'm concerned.

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04-06-2008, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Martin needs to stay... Certain players need to go.... People that look down on the southeast and Panthers for a living need to shut their pie hole...
Martin has to go and his quotes in that article prove as much. The guy is a giant tool and cannot possibly admit to doing an even decent job while balancing TWO jobs. Being GM is a full time job. You can't be an effective coach and GM at the same time. Blow the ****er up. Just do it. Top to bottom. Everyone but the owner. You guys have the goalie and some decent young players but not much else. If Florida continues down this path, they will no longer be in Florida it seems.

Clement is dead on and was actually showing restraint. The circus needs to end. My team, the Coyotes, went through an eerily similar stretch and it finally came to an end when real, tangible hockey people were put in important positions, but more importantly, were held accountable. I hope the Florida franchise finds its way, because indeed, hearing the quips about the SE gets old.

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04-06-2008, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RoadDoggFL View Post
The problem is that the naysayers don't really know what they're talking about. Things like "3 years for Martin" and pinning responsibility on him for the Luongo trade kinda send their credibility into the negatives as far as I'm concerned.
Yes I see. Me saying Martin had some part of the Luongo fiasco is somehow more damning than Martin NOT MAKING THE FREAKING PLAYOFFS AGAIN, Not adding any scorers and sucking AGAIN. Just to be clear.....

You know what the problem is here. Nobody has any freaking accountibility. Martin gets a free pass for everything when everyone in the hockey universe can see it's a total failure down here. If they'd have made the playoffs sometime this millenium then maybe I wouldnt have an argument but since they havent made the playoffs at all in Martin's tenure I think i have a pretty good case. And oh yeah. HE HAS NEVER WON ANYTHING AT THE NHL LEVEL AS A HEAD COACH and he almost ruined Spezza!

Oh and one more thing..........

They had 85 points this year, one less than last year and the same as two years ago. AWESOME PROGRESS JERK MARTIN. Nice Defensive system that gives up the most shots in the nhl. The only thing Martin can win at is losing hockey games.

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04-06-2008, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Yes I see. Me saying Martin had some part of the Luongo fiasco is somehow more damning than Martin NOT MAKING THE FREAKING PLAYOFFS AGAIN, Not adding any scorers and sucking AGAIN. Just to be clear.....

You know what the problem is here. Nobody has any freaking accountibility. Martin gets a free pass for everything when everyone in the hockey universe can see it's a total failure down here. If they'd have made the playoffs sometime this millenium then maybe I wouldnt have an argument but since they havent made the playoffs at all in Martin's tenure I think i have a pretty good case. And oh yeah. HE HAS NEVER WON ANYTHING AT THE NHL LEVEL AS A HEAD COACH and he almost ruined Spezza!
Uh... Martin was left a pile of refuse with a couple bright spots to work with when he got here... Keenan made it worse during Martin's first years... He's just now starting to recover from Keenan's cancerous presence.

As for a "scorer". It's not about getting a scorer, it's about getting the right scorer. Even more so now that there's a salary cap to worry about.

Martin never won a Cup, but saying Martin never won anything at the NHL level makes you look foolish. 3 Division Championships, 8 Playoff appearances and a Jack Adams Award.

And how did he "almost ruin" Spezza again?

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04-06-2008, 05:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Uh... Martin was left a pile of refuse with a couple bright spots to work with when he got here... Keenan made it worse during Martin's first years... He's just now starting to recover from Keenan's cancerous presence.

As for a "scorer". It's not about getting a scorer, it's about getting the right scorer. Even more so now that there's a salary cap to worry about.

Martin never won a Cup, but saying Martin never won anything at the NHL level makes you look foolish. 3 Division Championships, 8 Playoff appearances and a Jack Adams Award.

And how did he "almost ruin" Spezza again?

1. Nice excuse...... once again no accountability. Being better than keenan does not signify progress. They still suck.

2. And by right scorer you mean nobody in 3 years.

3. Yes, everyone plays to win the coveted division title and cherished Jack Adams award.

4. By scratching him the playoffs then thankfully OTT fired him.

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04-06-2008, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
1. Nice excuse...... once again no accountability. Being better than keenan does not signify progress. They still suck.

2. And by right scorer you mean nobody in 3 years.

3. Yes, everyone plays to win the coveted division title and cherished Jack Adams award.

4. By scratching him the playoffs then thankfully OTT fired him.
My accountability is placed on the players. Martin hasn't been GM long enough to get rid of the wrong players for this team.

Martin has not been GM for 3 years. Add to that, Offseason 1 was hurt by our needing to spend picks to replace Luongo (thanks to Keenan).

As I said, he hasn't won the cup, but he also has won more than the nothing you claim.

Without knowing what was going on in the locker room, who's to say he didn't deserve it.

How's Ottawa doing now? They've won the cup twice since he left, right? It was the crappy goaltending in OTT that caused them Playoff trouble. They still haven't fixed that and they still haven't won.

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04-06-2008, 06:29 AM
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Right on and now add Yormark to my list of those who need to be axed. Need to change the atmosphere of the entire Organization, though unfortunately you can't fire the Owner, and find a group of people, President, General Manager, Head Coach, Scouting Director and Assistent Coaches who will add to and tweak but not totally dismantle the roster. Make the present core smaller, Jokinen, Horton, Booth and Bouwmeester and strive to add to it and compliment it. Not necessarily trade or not re-sign everyone else, especially Vokoun, Weiss, Olesz, etc, but make it known those players are available for the right price.

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04-06-2008, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
Good, this puts more pressure on Cohen to make some changes, whatever they may be. I don't buy into Martin being able to build a really strong team. I think we'd be better off in another direction.
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Dead on! Loved every part of that story. Nice to see people outside the rose colored zone speaking whats been obvious for some time. This franchise is in ruins and everyone who disagrees has loser denial ala adam sandler in billy madison.
Yeah, it was really great seeing them talk about the team's incosistency and then saying we need to make the whole team over from top to bottom. We've been doing that for a decade, what has it done for us?

I disagree. We're finally getting some consistency in certain areas and it's helping. Anyone who can't see that is an L7 weenie ala The Sandlot. (I've got some, too).

So, let's keep up the carousel, sounds GREAT! "Mired in mediocrity for a decade, and haven't learned ANYTHING!" -next year's slogan.

team needs: A new coach, an impact forward, cleaning up the defense, and a player with captaincy qualities.

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04-06-2008, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Yes I see. Me saying Martin had some part of the Luongo fiasco is somehow more damning than Martin NOT MAKING THE FREAKING PLAYOFFS AGAIN, Not adding any scorers and sucking AGAIN. Just to be clear.....

You know what the problem is here. Nobody has any freaking accountibility. Martin gets a free pass for everything when everyone in the hockey universe can see it's a total failure down here. If they'd have made the playoffs sometime this millenium then maybe I wouldnt have an argument but since they havent made the playoffs at all in Martin's tenure I think i have a pretty good case. And oh yeah. HE HAS NEVER WON ANYTHING AT THE NHL LEVEL AS A HEAD COACH and he almost ruined Spezza!

Oh and one more thing..........

They had 85 points this year, one less than last year and the same as two years ago. AWESOME PROGRESS JERK MARTIN. Nice Defensive system that gives up the most shots in the nhl. The only thing Martin can win at is losing hockey games.
Again...jerk Martin? Seriously?

I've picked apart part of this post in others, it's not like it's anythign new from you. However, how did he ruin Spezza? last I looked he was quite the top player in the NHL. Ruined? Ummmm...no!

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04-06-2008, 07:54 AM
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I think its funny too how they talk about stability and then want to can everyone.

Is their anyone here who thinks that the long term contracts for Weiss, Horton and Allen were wrong?

I guess all in all what they are asking Cohen to do is give everyone one year contracts and fire everyone. Then there would be an article about how we don't commit to our players and are unstable.

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04-06-2008, 08:22 AM
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From an outsider looking in, I have to say that I probably agree with most of the criticism that is being heaped on the Panthers management. They really need a GM with a track record and need to continue compiling talent. I think Martin is a decent coach and could be an ok GM, but doing both at the same time is probably not the job for him. The issue at hand also is the decision the team has to make on whether or not what they have in house and what they can acquire through small moves (minor trades/FA signings) can be enough to get them into the playoffs. They weren't far this year and they weren't far last year, but I wonder if it is enough with the increasingly competitive Southeast division. The Caps aren't getting worse and are stocked with top end talent. The Canes have a proven Cup team, and with less injuries would be a playoff team this year. I think they're coming to the point where they might need to start retooling or rebuild (especially on the backend) but they still have some young talented parts to build around. The Lightning still have Vinny and St. Louis. With a goalie, they're an improved team. Atlanta made the playoffs last year and might be headed for a rebuild, but who knows with ownership. The question really is, can Florida gear up enough to take a playoff spot? I think they could... but they have to get some more talent somehow. I'm not sure I think Martin is the guy to get that new talent in house without giving up too much or making a bad choice in the FA market. They also haven't been able to compete (either by choice or chance) for top talent signings, so I'm not sure that will change. Does Florida have enough talent in the system or money in the bank to get another few players to make it to the playoffs? Are the young players and the players on the roster now enough to get you to a Cup in 5 years?

I think that has gotten better with a lot of servicable young players on the team coming up (Matthias, Kreps and Booth being the ones I'm most impressed with) and adding to the depth of the organization, but they're still behind the eight ball for drafting and developing prospects. Part of that is some unlucky bounces in the draft lottery and other times that has been poor trades or selections. But they need to keep getting players and get more consistency from ones they have locked up as well. However, it will all go back to drafting and development. They need one or two more really good players and they would be set. I'm not sure where those will come from, but their first round picks need to payoff. Some they have taken might not. I think if anything, the lack of player development might lead me to question whether or not the scouting staff and the GM roles of not only Martin but the predecessors have done the best job possible.

I also think there needs to be a verdict on Jokinen. I know most probably would be against trading him, but I think the Panthers might want to consider it. If they could get 2-3 solid parts, it would make sense. A young player with top end potential and talent, a good prospect and then a pick would make sense to me. i don't even think it is a basis on Jokinen, I just wonder if the elephant in the room of him never making the playoffs isn't a bit much hanging around the team. The bigger thing is that when he is dealt, the team must get a good return.

Then beyond that, the players they are going to keep around need to play to what they're paid and beyond. I think Horton could be better than he played this year, but his talent level is immense. He just needs to refine his game and compete every night. Weiss has tools, but I'm not certain he is the guy to have locked up.

Also, no Zednik/Stumpel like signings. They're decent guys and ok players, but they don't really do a whole lot for the team.

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04-06-2008, 08:29 AM
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I think the article makes some good points. I think it misses the mark on others. How can you praise the Booth-Weiss-Horton line and then question the wisdom of signing two of those players long term? Signing Allen long term was a mistake? Anyone notice the exorbitant price of UFA D-men recently? Remember that these are people who are being paid to be opinionated, not to be right. Black or white. Grey doesn't sell.

My gut feeling the past couple of weeks has been that Martin is gone. Like others here, I certainly think a change at head coach is in order. Like others here, I worry about the change at GM. Whatever happens, I hope a decision is made in the interests of improving the organization rather than in the interests of appeasing the torch and pitchfork crowd.

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04-06-2008, 08:51 AM
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The year following the time you trade Horton he will score 50 goals. This kid has unreal talent but something doesn't fit in Florida for him IMO

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04-06-2008, 09:03 AM
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I think the article makes some good points. I think it misses the mark on others. How can you praise the Booth-Weiss-Horton line and then question the wisdom of signing two of those players long term? Signing Allen long term was a mistake? Anyone notice the exorbitant price of UFA D-men recently? Remember that these are people who are being paid to be opinionated, not to be right. Black or white. Grey doesn't sell.

My gut feeling the past couple of weeks has been that Martin is gone. Like others here, I certainly think a change at head coach is in order. Like others here, I worry about the change at GM. Whatever happens, I hope a decision is made in the interests of improving the organization rather than in the interests of appeasing the torch and pitchfork crowd.
If we happen to get a new GM, I just hope Cohen's smart enough to not hire the next big name out there. Go through a process, start it tommorrow so we have enough time before the draft. But find someone with a plan and be patient enough to allow him implement it.

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04-06-2008, 09:04 AM
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The year following the time you trade Horton he will score 50 goals. This kid has unreal talent but something doesn't fit in Florida for him IMO
He's been allowed to be inconsistenet at times and not have to answer for it. Had he been benched a few times, Florida would be a fine fit for him.

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04-06-2008, 09:58 AM
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Right on and now add Yormark to my list of those who need to be axed. Need to change the atmosphere of the entire Organization, though unfortunately you can't fire the Owner, and find a group of people, President, General Manager, Head Coach, Scouting Director and Assistent Coaches who will add to and tweak but not totally dismantle the roster. Make the present core smaller, Jokinen, Horton, Booth and Bouwmeester and strive to add to it and compliment it. Not necessarily trade or not re-sign everyone else, especially Vokoun, Weiss, Olesz, etc, but make it known those players are available for the right price.
Look at stats this season, and tell me Weiss and Olesz need to be made available. Both were '+' players and both put up a decent number of points. Weiss, indeed, seems to be the keystone of the success of the second line, as it faltered without him and at the end of the season where he was playing hurt.

Jokinen, by comparison, has been nearly invisible for nearly 3 months. Leads the team in scoring, but wouldn't have if he'd played the whole season like he played the second half of it, and had a team-worst +/-. You're rewarding his loyalty, I know - but what about Weiss, who signed a long-term deal? What about Olesz who has filled every role the team has given him without complaining, even a demotion to the minors at one point last year.

Vokoun - well - I'm all for an upgrade, but that could prove hard to find, and certainly he's stolen a few games for the team but has also helped blow a few.

But, seriously - the core of this team has to include at this point Bouwmeester, Jokinen (though he's borderline right now), Booth, Weiss, Horton, Kreps, Allen, and Olesz, as the regular players who actually showed a good effort this season and had decent results for it (except Jokinen, he's given a pass on this season). You make that the core of a team to build around - and keep Cullimore and Belak right now for being excellent in their roles. You use that as the core to build around to get to the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs a couple times, if you're not getting to the finals, that's when you review your core and make adjustments.

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04-06-2008, 10:01 AM
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A new coach is fine, but it's foolish imo to get a total overhaul again. It hasn't worked, noone's patient with anyone's plan of change, and we're not going to all of a sudden get better. A decade at revolving door has produced nothing at all whatsoever, so let's keep it going.

Anyone ever thought that the players' laziness out there is a result of the constant movement? Who are the usual suspects? The guys who've managed to stay here through most of this. Far as I'm concerned, when it comes to accountability, it at this point starts with the players. Those guys have to look at themselves in thr mirror everyday. Coach after coach, GM after GM, all the same problems remain. Noone wants to address that.


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