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Green/Clement Criticize Martin, Panthers Organization

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Old
04-06-2008, 02:48 PM
  #51
zeroG
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
You can bring Matthias up, and maybe a Olli/Matthias/Rolston line would be more productive, but then what happens with Olesz. Rusty compliments any line he would play on, but he really needs some quality minutes, which he wouldnt get on the lower two lines. Unless you want to move Olli, then you can maybe have something like:

Booth - Weiss - Horton
Olli trade - Matthias - Rolston/Prospal

This team has options. They have UFA/RFAs that are borderline for this team, and they are going to have some cap room to play with. From GM to coach to players, this offseason should play a big part into what this organization will accomplish in the next few seasons. Its extremely important we go out on the market and do what we HAVE to do to take that next step. NO MORE 3rd/4th LINE GUYS!
i actually believe last off-season was the most impt for the next few years in the sense that JM made the commitment to the talent he inherited, filled in the gaping hole in goal and didn't take any unnecessary risks in doing so. there's some tweaking to do and those tweaks will influence future accomplishments to be sure but the plate was set last off-season.

we aren't going to be signing much up front. there's not much room unless there are several buyouts. there's not much need either. i'd go along with rolston (or someone similar) but that's about all.

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04-06-2008, 02:59 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by jrockett1096 View Post
JM needs to go as coach that is for sure for all the reasons that has been said before by me and many others in this board for months now. I don't think he has done a bad job as GM though signing just 3rd liners this offseason and not picking up a Kariya or Selanne or other top flight forward to help Olli would have probably got us in the playoffs. Our depth on the team (when healthy) is better, we have very good goaltenders, they're great players coming up soon and he signed long term our good but not great young players who should get better. Martin as a coach is a big problem on this team and we need someone else who can play a more offensively aggressive system, better motivate these players and we can turn this around.

Olli Jokinen needs help, no more 3rd line forwards or crusty old guys mocking as 1st liners. Sign a big name free agent already, enough is enough. Signing Hossa, Rolston or Marcus Naslund who has been a great captain for Vancouver over the years would be good names to consider and get this burden of lifting this franchise to the playoffs off Jokinens back already!

This team has been close to make the playoffs these past couple years and i don't think an entire overhaul is needed but we need to spend some money and get some help on that first line another good defenseman , a new coach to get the best out of these players and for most of all stay healthy!
nonsense. there are a lot of people here who don't know what they are talking about. play a more aggressive offensive system? when this team has been most successful, they've been aggressive on the forecheck. they just haven't been consistent. now whether that is due to the constantly shifting lines or coaching is a worthy debate but the reasons supplied by many here just don't cut it past hockey 101. atf has made the point that JM perhaps wasn't able to get enough out of the guys and that's the one legit beef i can see. the level of play and consistency when the team's healthy seems to work against atf's argument, though.

regarding your comments, did you see JM's response to the criticism leveled yesterday?

Quote:
"Different teams play with varying degrees of aggressiveness, and the Panthers are the most cautious," Elliott said.

Martin disagrees.

"I don't know what those guys are looking at," he said. "I'm not using any different system than any other team."
my problem with the criticism coming from folks like you is that you don't have half a clue what a system is.

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04-06-2008, 03:05 PM
  #53
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My take:
1. I agree with the basic point that the organization needs real fixing, not tweaking. But I don't agree that it's a top-to-bottom overhaul need.
2. When fixing problems, always start with the most critical. IMO it's the (non-player) leadership situation. I'd offer JM to stay as GM and give up HC position. If he refuses, I'd let him go, because it's more important to have JM step down from the HC post than it is to keep him as GM. Simultaneously, I'd replace Yormark.
3. Get #2 done quickly and efficiently, preferably during playoffs if possible. Put all your effort into that. Get an enthusiastic, outspoken guy as HC.
4. After #2 is done move on to think about player moves.

I realize that this sounds great (if you agree with the logic), but executing it quickly is quite a problem. Especially for Cohen.

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04-06-2008, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
nonsense. there are a lot of people here who don't know what they are talking about. play a more aggressive offensive system? when this team has been most successful, they've been aggressive on the forecheck. they just haven't been consistent. now whether that is due to the constantly shifting lines or coaching is a worthy debate but the reasons supplied by many here just don't cut it past hockey 101. atf has made the point that JM perhaps wasn't able to get enough out of the guys and that's the one legit beef i can see. the level of play and consistency when the team's healthy seems to work against atf's argument, though.

regarding your comments, did you see JM's response to the criticism leveled yesterday?

my problem with the criticism coming from folks like you is that you don't have half a clue what a system is.
My problem with JM's comment is precisely what he said. "I don't know what these guys are looking at. I'm not using any different system than any other team." Now to anyone who has completed team sports 101, this should be a disturbing quote. JM seems to think that all teams play the same system, basically. Wow. No wonder.
And please, before you try to interpret for me what JM probably meant to say, just think about what he DID say. It's pretty pathetic.

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04-06-2008, 04:03 PM
  #55
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Goon, I didn't get that at all from that quote. He's not telling anyone what his system is, but the way I read it was "The are various systems out there and I am not using anything out of the ordinary."

That said, I believe his lack of imagination is stifling the potential for creativity (our offense is downright predictable) and agree with your logic from the standpoint of we need a new HC much more than a new GM at this point and I'd prefer JM stay on as GM..


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04-06-2008, 05:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Desert Panther View Post
Goon, I didn't get that at all from that quote. He's not telling anyone what his system is, but the way I read it was "The are various systems out there and I am not using anything out of the ordinary."

That said, I believe his lack of imagination is stifling the potential for creativity (our offense is downright predictable) and agree with your logic from the standpoint of we need a new HC much more than a new GM at this point and I'd prefer JM stay on as GM..
i think you are correct on #1 and if there's an area where i'd be willing to concede, it'd be with tail end of your second comment, though even then it's grudgingly. i think JM's done a pretty decent job considering what he's inherited and the injuries this team has sustained the past two seasons (think about how much injuries have impacted our lineup; heck, think about how much the roster has changed since opening night last year...). having said that, i think JM's shown he's got the wherewithall on the GM side (at least so far) so if it was absolutely necessary to placate the masses or owner, i'd go along with him giving up coaching. unfortunately, i believe that's the part he enjoys the most.

as far as the offense is concerned, i don't think JM's telling guys to "not be creative". the whole game is about creativity. do you really think he's telling guys "alright, i want dump-ins every time and if you gain possession, i want to see you grind out chances via the cycle"? i don't. rather, i think our offensive style is a function of the type of players we had/currently have. that, mind you, is going to change when add our prospects (esp. frolik) to the equation. so we're in a transition period. as our defensive zone play got better this year, you saw better breakouts, more speed and more creativity through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. that, imo, is where the focus should be (both in terms of criticism and in terms of off-season acquisitions).

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04-06-2008, 05:25 PM
  #57
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No, I don't think he's telling guys not to be creative. However, I do believe that his style of play tends to stifle those players that are capable of being more creative with the puck because they're being fit into a system that doesn't let them play to that strength. Remember, he had the same knock against him in Ottawa as well. I can't help but think that there is something more to that.

I also believe that the type of system he employs is much more suited for the old style of NHL play. I believe that is one of the contributors to the fact we have been dead last in PP differential for the last few years.

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04-06-2008, 08:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Desert Panther View Post
No, I don't think he's telling guys not to be creative. However, I do believe that his style of play tends to stifle those players that are capable of being more creative with the puck because they're being fit into a system that doesn't let them play to that strength. Remember, he had the same knock against him in Ottawa as well. I can't help but think that there is something more to that.

I also believe that the type of system he employs is much more suited for the old style of NHL play. I believe that is one of the contributors to the fact we have been dead last in PP differential for the last few years.
alright, this is what angers me most... WHAT system??? how do you know??? what do you (or anyone else) see on the ice that's telling you that his system is "old style" or stifling? tell me, give me some details, not just vague references to his time in ottawa and comments from people who probably know just as little as some who criticize on this board. let's talk specifics.

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04-06-2008, 11:33 PM
  #59
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At least we are really good at the dump and chase....on the PP

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04-07-2008, 12:14 AM
  #60
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Again...jerk Martin? Seriously?

I've picked apart part of this post in others, it's not like it's anythign new from you. However, how did he ruin Spezza? last I looked he was quite the top player in the NHL. Ruined? Ummmm...no!
If anything I think he helped Spezza by not rushing him.

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04-07-2008, 12:21 AM
  #61
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I agree with most everything else, but I don't think we should be going after any RFA's like Carter or Perry, and have to give up yet another first round pick or multiple first rounders, not to mention the other picks. Especially with the super 2009 draft coming up. IMO guys like Carter and Perry are not worth all the picks we'd be giving up. We should be looking at trades or UFA to bring in major pieces.
It would be worth considering, however I would also prefer to go the UFA route and keep our picks espcially after giving so many up this year.

Signing Carter could work though if we traded Jokinen for a bunch of young players/futures. That way we could recoup some of the draft picks we would lose in RFA.

Just something to think about.

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04-07-2008, 12:29 AM
  #62
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Both Perry and Carter are 30+ goal scorers. Id offer $4.75 million to either of them, and deal with the consequences. You cant guarantee anything in the draft, and to get a 30+ goal scorer would benefit this team extremely over the offseason. Especially when they are in their mid 20s.

UFAs just cost money though, RFAs cost money AND picks. RFA is risky and should be explored with exceptional players (like Malkin) or with those unproven guys with lots of potential (like Harding last year). Guys like Carter and Perry would cost alot in terms of money and picks, so this option is often better left alone unless you have extra picks or prospects (like how Edmonton had an extra 1st coming into this season, although I disagree with the Penner sheet). I don't want to destroy our draft next year unless we can acquire some additional picks/prospects.

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04-07-2008, 12:31 AM
  #63
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only problem with that plan is that you don't leave any room for matthias and i think JM (by virtue of his callup this year) is really thinking that matthias will skip the A and jump right to the bigs. otherwise, i like the idea. rolston could additionally provide a bridge to a future captaincy for weiss.
I wouldn't leave room for Matthias. I would make room when he proves he can't be held out of the lineup. Make him earn it.

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04-07-2008, 01:12 AM
  #64
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It would be worth considering, however I would also prefer to go the UFA route and keep our picks espcially after giving so many up this year.

Signing Carter could work though if we traded Jokinen for a bunch of young players/futures. That way we could recoup some of the draft picks we would lose in RFA.

Just something to think about.
Hmmm......that is something to think about, but pb1300 was suggesting that we sign a top RFA to complement the core players we already have, not change our core. And IMO that would be the whole point. I don't see how swapping Jokinen for Carter helps us that much and changes us much talent wise.

I also don't like the idea of giving so many first round picks to someone else. I'd prefer us to keep our own picks. Like I said, you don't know what's going to happen in the future. We could end up in a lottery position in 09 or 10, but once again without a pick. And then I think I'd shoot myself. Imagine being in the position to draft Tavares, Hedman, or Pulkkinen, and not having the pick? Lecavalier all over again.

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04-07-2008, 02:08 AM
  #65
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alright, this is what angers me most... WHAT system??? how do you know??? what do you (or anyone else) see on the ice that's telling you that his system is "old style" or stifling? tell me, give me some details, not just vague references to his time in ottawa and comments from people who probably know just as little as some who criticize on this board. let's talk specifics.

Sorry, I missed your response as I had my house league game tonight .. Ok, you want details ... A few things I've noticed. I'm sure there are more but it's late and I'm tired..

First, I can't count how many times I've seen one of our forwards dump in for a line change regardless of the numbers going forward (I've actually seen several potential 2 on 1s that we've "thrown away"). Sometimes you need to take a bit of a risk if the situation calls for it and try to generate a scoring chance while changing the D behind the play in case there is a turnover.

Second, I can't count how many times I've seen that once we get a lead sit back, send one forechecker and play man to man on the wings in order to trap the zone. And since we're not really that good at it consistantly, the opposition ends up coming at us in waves without any real worry that we'll transition and rush back up to their end of the ice. 5 years ago when the physical play in the defensive zone was allowed and the stick fouls in the neutral zone went uncalled that works. It doesn't now.

Third, I'm blind and can't count, and I've noticed that we lose the zone time in a lot of games simply because other teams are able to set up in our zone by swinging the puck around the boards and we are horrible at guarding the point. They simply reverse the play and are able to keep in because the wings are cheating to the center and standing still. They immediately get what I call a "mini 2 on 1" in the corner. It doesn't necessarily generate a chance for them, but it's really hard for us to generate offense fon 160 feet away and gets us chasing the play.

Finally, throughout most of the season, I've noticed that teams that play against us get better as the game goes on because we don't adapt. Scouting reports aside, we don't seem to make those little changes very well between periods to take advantage of the opponent's weaknesses. I understand the need for playing a disciplined game, but hockey is also a situational game and we do not take advantage of the situations very well at all..


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04-07-2008, 05:47 AM
  #66
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Two things this organization has not tried very often if at all....

1. Playing an offensive system, unless you consider Pavel Bure cherry-picking at the red line.

2. Hiring a head coach that had a great NHL career as a player. Not saying this is the answer, but Neilson, MacLean, B.Murray, Keenan, Torchetti, and Martin never played in the NHL....T.Murray, D.Sutter, and Dudley did. Dudley mostly let his assistants run the show, so I guess he shouldn't really be mentioned here. Terry played and still holds the record for best Panther season (even though it was a fluke) and Sutter failed horribly despite his career and background.

Former players that play offensive systems in junior/minors off the top of my head, Patrick Roy (Quebec Ramparts), Dale Hunter (London Knights), and John Anderson (Chicago Wolves). Perhaps the Panthers should try to pry someone's NHL assistant coach? Tim Hunter from San Jose or Kirk Muller from Montreal perhaps?

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04-07-2008, 07:53 AM
  #67
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2. Hiring a head coach that had a great NHL career as a player. Not saying this is the answer, but Neilson, MacLean, B.Murray, Keenan, Torchetti, and Martin never played in the NHL....T.Murray, D.Sutter, and Dudley did. Dudley mostly let his assistants run the show, so I guess he shouldn't really be mentioned here. Terry played and still holds the record for best Panther season (even though it was a fluke) and Sutter failed horribly despite his career and background.

Former players that play offensive systems in junior/minors off the top of my head, Patrick Roy (Quebec Ramparts), Dale Hunter (London Knights), and John Anderson (Chicago Wolves). Perhaps the Panthers should try to pry someone's NHL assistant coach? Tim Hunter from San Jose or Kirk Muller from Montreal perhaps?
Just to point out, the one former player who had a successful season (Murray) lost the respect of his players and got fired the very next season as part of prima donna Pavel Bure's quest to get a coach that let him do whatever he wanted. Bure also played a role in getting Keenan fired, too, if you recall. He stopped playing his hardest for Keenan, which forced the team to finally give up on him and trade him to the Rangers, but also led to the Panthers having a miserable 2001-02 season, which brings down the wrath of Keenan. He ends up getting some of his better offensive players so wound up they can't play anymore, and he's gone after a horrible start to 2002-03. Then he's back as GM to land Martin right after that season. Then he's gone again after his first season as GM two years later.

So I don't see that hiring former players as coaches is all that great an idea. Scotty Bowman was probably the best coach this game ever saw - but he only played three years of juniors and never played in the NHL.

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04-07-2008, 07:56 AM
  #68
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I wouldn't leave room for Matthias. I would make room when he proves he can't be held out of the lineup. Make him earn it.
Amen. I'm 100% for Matthias starting the season with Rochester, along with Frolik...but I'm also 100% in favor of giving them every chance to get called up, and if it looks like they really are too good for the AHL then go ahead and make room for them in Sunrise.

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04-07-2008, 11:12 AM
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I just don't understand why everyone is ready to throw Matthias into a 2nd or 1st line spot. He didn't do much at all after he got back to Belleville, then he got sick, so it's going to take him a while to rebuild strength over the summer and get healthy again. He's still lanky as you could see when he was called up, and he didn't play with a really big physical edge that hopefully he'll develop at the NHL level when he did play up here. Jokinen liked him a lot and I love his potential, as he's 6'3 or 6'4 and a great skater and skilled, but he should start in the AHL unless he earns a spot and when he does make the team he should be starting on the 3rd line. Just because he scored two deflections in one game doesn't mean he's our first liner next year. If he's on the first line, we have John Tavares to look forward to after next year.

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04-07-2008, 11:48 AM
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Amen. I'm 100% for Matthias starting the season with Rochester, along with Frolik...but I'm also 100% in favor of giving them every chance to get called up, and if it looks like they really are too good for the AHL then go ahead and make room for them in Sunrise.
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I just don't understand why everyone is ready to throw Matthias into a 2nd or 1st line spot. He didn't do much at all after he got back to Belleville, then he got sick, so it's going to take him a while to rebuild strength over the summer and get healthy again. He's still lanky as you could see when he was called up, and he didn't play with a really big physical edge that hopefully he'll develop at the NHL level when he did play up here. Jokinen liked him a lot and I love his potential, as he's 6'3 or 6'4 and a great skater and skilled, but he should start in the AHL unless he earns a spot and when he does make the team he should be starting on the 3rd line. Just because he scored two deflections in one game doesn't mean he's our first liner next year. If he's on the first line, we have John Tavares to look forward to after next year.
the reason why, pr, is that the kid has absolutely dominated in the ohl and, by all accounts, his game would translate very naturally to this level. having said that, i agree with these comments in principle. i trust JM (and newy) wrt where he belongs next year, tho - for the first time, we have management willing to be patient with these kids.

the only other thing i'd add is that IF you're forced to make room for him during the year, your hands are certainly going to be tied when it comes to moving a F - everyone will know that you have to deal and you'll certainly lose some potential value coming back.

i'm not sure what the best approach is here.

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04-07-2008, 12:31 PM
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the reason why, pr, is that the kid has absolutely dominated in the ohl and, by all accounts, his game would translate very naturally to this level. having said that, i agree with these comments in principle. i trust JM (and newy) wrt where he belongs next year, tho - for the first time, we have management willing to be patient with these kids.

the only other thing i'd add is that IF you're forced to make room for him during the year, your hands are certainly going to be tied when it comes to moving a F - everyone will know that you have to deal and you'll certainly lose some potential value coming back.

i'm not sure what the best approach is here.
Agreed. I really appreciate that management is willing to be patient with the kids. I think Matthias could play in the NHL, but he does need to earn that spot.

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04-07-2008, 12:40 PM
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the reason why, pr, is that the kid has absolutely dominated in the ohl and, by all accounts, his game would translate very naturally to this level. having said that, i agree with these comments in principle. i trust JM (and newy) wrt where he belongs next year, tho - for the first time, we have management willing to be patient with these kids.

the only other thing i'd add is that IF you're forced to make room for him during the year, your hands are certainly going to be tied when it comes to moving a F - everyone will know that you have to deal and you'll certainly lose some potential value coming back.

i'm not sure what the best approach is here.
I understand that. I followed him all season just as I followed Frolik and Repik with the Q and Dub respectively. It's just that I believe we'd be better served letted Matthias play in the AHL, hopefuly dominate and then, once he does that, let him come up to the NHL and slowly bring him along. We could have him come up in the fall and he could put up 15 goals as a rookie, 40 points or so, with all account being a fantastic rookie season, but if he plays in the AHL and scores 30 goals, 70 points, playing first line minutes and gaining consistency and confidence at the pro level, then we can bring him up and watch him hopefully dominate. We've brought up so many kids before they were ready. When's the last time we really waited until someone was more than ready to be in the NHL? Even Kreps right now could have used another year in the AHL to dominate and then come to the NHL but he defintely could play in the NHL. We don't need bodies, we need stars, so however the best route for Matthias to become one is where I hope we lead him.

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04-07-2008, 12:42 PM
  #73
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i'm not sure what the best approach is here.
The realistic one - the roster will probably have an expendable forward or two anyway. Better Matthias than them if he's shown he's earned the spot. Either someone will be demotable and sent to the AHL, or it won't be a big loss dealing them to a team in need of a warm body for a 7th round pick.

We could delude ourselves into thinking certain players have better trade value, but ultimately they aren't helping this team into the playoffs. We should be happy for anything this team gets for Peltonen or Stumpel, for instance.

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04-07-2008, 12:52 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
I understand that. I followed him all season just as I followed Frolik and Repik with the Q and Dub respectively. It's just that I believe we'd be better served letted Matthias play in the AHL, hopefuly dominate and then, once he does that, let him come up to the NHL and slowly bring him along. We could have him come up in the fall and he could put up 15 goals as a rookie, 40 points or so, with all account being a fantastic rookie season, but if he plays in the AHL and scores 30 goals, 70 points, playing first line minutes and gaining consistency and confidence at the pro level, then we can bring him up and watch him hopefully dominate. We've brought up so many kids before they were ready. When's the last time we really waited until someone was more than ready to be in the NHL? Even Kreps right now could have used another year in the AHL to dominate and then come to the NHL but he defintely could play in the NHL. We don't need bodies, we need stars, so however the best route for Matthias to become one is where I hope we lead him.
couldn't agree more. this isn't a science, tho. luckily, i trust the folks in charge to make the right decision.

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04-07-2008, 12:58 PM
  #75
zeroG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
The realistic one - the roster will probably have an expendable forward or two anyway. Better Matthias than them if he's shown he's earned the spot. Either someone will be demotable and sent to the AHL, or it won't be a big loss dealing them to a team in need of a warm body for a 7th round pick.

We could delude ourselves into thinking certain players have better trade value, but ultimately they aren't helping this team into the playoffs. We should be happy for anything this team gets for Peltonen or Stumpel, for instance.
yeah, i wasn't really thinking about those two. more like a kreps, campbell or mclean (how many centers do we want to carry on the nhl roster?). in their case, waiting might mean the difference between a 3rd, 4th, 5th or...

and we don't really have anyone would could be sent down. kreps is it at this point and he's an RFA. if he doesn't sign a new deal, i believe we could still send him down but after the way he's played, that doesn't seem too cool.

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