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Vancouver/Carolina Trade Proposal

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Old
05-20-2004, 11:45 PM
  #1
Jon Burke
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Vancouver/Carolina Trade Proposal

Here's a trade proposal...

To Vancouver: Erik Cole (Winger), 2004 second round pick
To Carolina: Brent Sopel (Defense), 2004 first round pick

Reasoning: The 'Canes defense is beginning to get a bit long in the tooth with the likes of Wesley, Hedican and Hill. They could also use more offensive skill on the back end as well, IMO. Sopel would provide that. The 'Canes also move up a few slots in the draft. The Canucks, meanwhile, gain a big winger who is solid in both ends and has some playoff experience, doesn't make a ton of money and fits well into their core group of young players. The 'Canes might not want to move Cole however, and obviously the Canucks would have to find a way to add another defenseman (either via free agency or a trade).

Thoughts?

 
Old
05-21-2004, 12:30 AM
  #2
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No thanks. Not big on Cole at all. Besides, where would he play? We already have a massive glut on LW.

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05-21-2004, 12:33 AM
  #3
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I think this is a bad deal for Carolina.....give up a very underrated young powerforward in Cole for a d-man in Sopel who has good skills offensivley but is a suspect on d on many nights. A first and second round swap doesn't really make a big difference worth giving Cole up for Sopel. Cole is only about 26 and has a fairly cheap salary

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05-21-2004, 12:33 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
No thanks. Not big on Cole at all. Besides, where would he play? We already have a massive glut on LW.
...he plays RW (remember the BBC line?)

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05-21-2004, 01:55 AM
  #5
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Terrible deal for Carolina.

A 3rd is all I'd give up for Sopel, definitely not a decent player like Erik Cole.

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05-21-2004, 02:16 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
No thanks. Not big on Cole at all. Besides, where would he play? We already have a massive glut on LW.
Ha.. No thanks?

If I am not mistaken, Cole can play RW as well as LW. He would be on your 2nd line almost certainly. Eric Cole would be a perfect fit for the Sedins, adding some much needed muscle and grit. Not only that, but Cole can score you 20/25 right now, and I believe that may run up to about 30 over the years. If you wouldn't want to aquire him for an older 2nd pairing defenseman and only dropping about 5 picks later in the draft, something is seriously, seriously wrong. IMO, Cole would solidiy your secondary scoring perfectly and then some.

Anyway, Carolina would ask for Kesler + Allen at the very least, this wouldn't even give you the rights to mention his name.

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Old
05-21-2004, 05:29 AM
  #7
Blane Youngblood
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Brent Sopel - age 27
GP G A TP PIM +/-
2001-02 VANC, NHL 66 8 17 25 44 21
2002-03 VANC, NHL 81 7 30 37 23 -15
2003-04 VANC, NHL 80 10 32 42 36 11

Eric Cole - age 26
2001-02 CARO, NHL 81 16 24 40 35 -10
2002-03 CARO, NHL 53 14 13 27 72 1
2003-04 CARO, NHL 80 18 24 42 93 -4

Okay, that stats may lie a little but over the last three years (the only three years either has been in the NHL) Sopel has a much better +/-, and has a similar number of points, while playing as a defenseman. While it could be argued that Sopel's stats are inflated because he plays on a good team, lets not forget that both players play prominent roles and thus play a large part in the success and failures of their teams.
There is a one year gap in age, and both are cheap. Now as a Vancouver fan I do this deal for sure, which probably means it's lopsided against Carolina, but also, I think part of that is because Cole is quite overatted and Sopel is quite underrated by most fans (I mean honestly, Cole can pop 25 now, since when?), myself included.

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05-21-2004, 06:23 AM
  #8
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I'd do it from a Canucks' perspective, Cole is the type of player the Canucks need more of IMO. Also playing alongside the Sedins I think he could become a 25-30 goal scorer. Don't see the Cane's being interested though, I think they'll want to build around Cole. But nonetheless, Carolina could definitely use Sopel, so I can see them being interested in him. Maybe if the deal was expanded something could be worked out?

And evman, you may only give up a 3rd for Sopel, but I'm sure there are many teams that would give up more for a 28 year old top 4 d-mand who scored 42 points and will make under $1.5 mil for the next two seasons.

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Old
05-21-2004, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
Ha.. No thanks?

If I am not mistaken, Cole can play RW as well as LW. He would be on your 2nd line almost certainly. Eric Cole would be a perfect fit for the Sedins, adding some much needed muscle and grit. Not only that, but Cole can score you 20/25 right now, and I believe that may run up to about 30 over the years. If you wouldn't want to aquire him for an older 2nd pairing defenseman and only dropping about 5 picks later in the draft, something is seriously, seriously wrong. IMO, Cole would solidiy your secondary scoring perfectly and then some.

Anyway, Carolina would ask for Kesler + Allen at the very least, this wouldn't even give you the rights to mention his name.
and to say why would carolina do that anyway. He's one of there best players already and he's seen the finals. If carolina really needs to get ahold of a defensemen they are better off saving cole and getting a dman through free agency. Sopel is good but at the cost of cole? id pass if im carolina...

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05-21-2004, 08:01 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40
Sopel is good but at the cost of cole? id pass if im carolina...
I'd have to agree from a Canes POV
But a player like Cole is the type of player the Canucks should be looking at. I've heard for a long time now that it would be cheaper to pick up O'Neill.
I'm not sure what would need to be added to the deal to get O'Neill but he would be a good fit as well.

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05-21-2004, 09:32 AM
  #11
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No thanks. Cole is young, cheap and plays his ass off every night. This is the kind of player the Hurricanes need.

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05-21-2004, 09:33 AM
  #12
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I'm surprised the Canucks aren't looking for a goalie as well as a scorer. Perhaps you feel Auld is the guy, cause Cloutier sure isn't.

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05-21-2004, 09:45 AM
  #13
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I find it humorous that Canucks fans think of Erik Cole as overrated when they have Matt Cooke on their team. Intangibles count for a whole lot, and Cole is a warrior.

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05-21-2004, 09:48 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryU
I'm surprised the Canucks aren't looking for a goalie as well as a scorer. Perhaps you feel Auld is the guy, cause Cloutier sure isn't.
goaltending isn't as easy a position to address.... if Cloutier isn't the guy, then who is?? remember it would have to be a goalie that fits our team financially, and one who is available out there, while being a clear-cut upgrade on Cloutier.

It would also have to be someone that fits this team... we had Weekes before, and while he has shown flashes of being a top goalie, he has also been inconsistent and while in Vancouver he had his share of problems fitting in with our team.

the suggestions that have been made, for the most part, don't fit that well... Kolzig is expensive, guys like Garon, Noronen etc, while having good upside aren't any better fits in the short term as they are all still on learning curves and like Cloutier might work out, or might now.

Cloutier for his part, has improved each season, although his injuries are a cause for frustration. Auld IMO is no where near ready to carry a contender in the playoffs - he's still way too inexperienced.

If we can get our hands on a guy like Luongo then great - clear upgrade that helps our team that we can afford... but goalies like this aren't available... and we're in no position to gut our team and throw our salary structure out of wack to acquire a goalie at this stage.

While Cloutier may not be the best guy to lean on, he's perhaps our most realistic option at this point... Auld's place is as a backup right now, rushing him into a bigger role IMO will only hurt his development.

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05-21-2004, 09:53 AM
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Joc Thibault would be a clear upgrade. And probably only cost you a 3-4 D-guy. He's still young (28), relatively cheap & has over 200 wins playing with the Hawks during this downcycle.

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05-21-2004, 09:55 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
I find it humorous that Canucks fans think of Erik Cole as overrated when they have Matt Cooke on their team. Intangibles count for a whole lot, and Cole is a warrior.
I like Cole, and would love to add him to our team.

But I'd take Cooke over Cole.

Cole might be a bit more aggressive, but Cooke holds his own - and the difference, if any, isn't much... Cooke is a better and more consistent defensive player and like Cole raises his play in playoff-like games.

They're both the same age, and both are versatile enough to play both wings.

But what puts Cooke for us at a higher level is that he is already a heart and soul player for us, and one that is becoming more of a leader for us every year.

I wouldn't deal them one for one, but I'd love to add Cole to our team.

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05-21-2004, 10:01 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryU
Joc Thibault would be a clear upgrade. And probably only cost you a 3-4 D-guy. He's still young (28), relatively cheap & has over 200 wins playing with the Hawks during this downcycle.
If we can get Thibault for Sopel (and Ruutu, who I'd figure the Hawks want in any deal with the Canucks), I'd be all over it... given that the rest of the numbers all fit.

I don't know his contract status though.

I also haven't really followed Thibault much last season... I know he played very solid a couple years ago, but given his age, and his play from then, why would the Hawks move him, and for a #3/4 dman at that?

I'd probably be ready to move any one from our defense for him, other than Ohlund, Jovo and Allen.... the rest IMO can be replaced easily enough through free agency or trades.

I don't see the Hawks though moving him... I can't understand why they would if he's that good... the other goalies they have in their system are still too unproven.

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05-21-2004, 10:08 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I like Cole, and would love to add him to our team.

But I'd take Cooke over Cole.
Oh hell's no. Cooke is a limited grinder. Excellent defensively, solid stand-up guy but his production or skill level isn't anything special. What you see is what you get. Cole is a fairly matured powerforward for his age. His scoring upside far exceeds the difference in the other intagibles in comparison to Cooke. He's just as much of a leader, he's every bit as physical, and while not as great in his own zone, he's far from a liability. His scoring upside however, and the fact that I feel he can dominate games in the future (though not on a consistant base, more like a Jason Arnott type) makes me pick him with ease. Cooke is a limited grinder with some great attributes that makes him a valueble member of the Vancouver Canucks, more valueble than his stats show at least. But, an Erik Cole he'll never be confused with nor will he ever get such one by himself.

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05-21-2004, 10:22 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
Oh hell's no. Cooke is a limited grinder. Excellent defensively, solid stand-up guy but his production or skill level isn't anything special. What you see is what you get. Cole is a fairly matured powerforward for his age. His scoring upside far exceeds the difference in the other intagibles in comparison to Cooke. He's just as much of a leader, he's every bit as physical, and while not as great in his own zone, he's far from a liability. His scoring upside however, and the fact that I feel he can dominate games in the future (though not on a consistant base, more like a Jason Arnott type) makes me pick him with ease. Cooke is a limited grinder with some great attributes that makes him a valueble member of the Vancouver Canucks, more valueble than his stats show at least. But, an Erik Cole he'll never be confused with nor will he ever get such one by himself.
and you've seen Cooke play how many times?? it sounds like you haven't watched too many canuck games over the years.

he showed again in the playoffs that his scoring ability isn't limited to what you describe... he fit in very well on the top unit, and has very good hands and and offensive nose for the net....

he has produced, while getting almost zero PP time and until the Bertuzzi situation never played on the top 2 lines....

I think Cooke has very good hands, and very good offensive upside... put him on a line that actually plays an offensive role - like Cole gets all the time - and watch his numbers continue to get better.... his icetime has always been limited outside of the PK... he gets top minutes on the PK on our team, which gets his total icetime up to the 16-18 mins consistently, but that's with getting no PP time (that is until the last few weeks of the season and in the playoffs).

he was solid in the playoffs for us, and showed in the Worlds that he can play an offensive role effectively as well.

His offensive upside IMO is no different than Cole's... the advantage that Cole has had is that he gets to play on a top 2 line all the time, while getting PP time, neither of which Cooke got until the final few weeks of this regular season - and when he got it, he stepped up.

he's got the speed, he's got the hands... he's a solid 2-way player that can score, and he's improved his game over the years.

now if he was on Dallas I'm sure you'd be saying that he's a star... but being on the Canucks means to you (as usual) that he's overrated and no where near as good as everyone thinks he is.

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05-21-2004, 10:42 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
and you've seen Cooke play how many times?? it sounds like you haven't watched too many canuck games over the years.

he showed again in the playoffs that his scoring ability isn't limited to what you describe... he fit in very well on the top unit, and has very good hands and and offensive nose for the net....

he has produced, while getting almost zero PP time and until the Bertuzzi situation never played on the top 2 lines....

I think Cooke has very good hands, and very good offensive upside... put him on a line that actually plays an offensive role - like Cole gets all the time - and watch his numbers continue to get better.... his icetime has always been limited outside of the PK... he gets top minutes on the PK on our team, which gets his total icetime up to the 16-18 mins consistently, but that's with getting no PP time (that is until the last few weeks of the season and in the playoffs).

he was solid in the playoffs for us, and showed in the Worlds that he can play an offensive role effectively as well.

His offensive upside IMO is no different than Cole's... the advantage that Cole has had is that he gets to play on a top 2 line all the time, while getting PP time, neither of which Cooke got until the final few weeks of this regular season - and when he got it, he stepped up.

he's got the speed, he's got the hands... he's a solid 2-way player that can score, and he's improved his game over the years.

now if he was on Dallas I'm sure you'd be saying that he's a star... but being on the Canucks means to you (as usual) that he's overrated and no where near as good as everyone thinks he is.
I was about to post a balanced reply mentioning my thoughts, but everytime you feel it's necessary to tell me I am a homer. I know I am, but you're losing all my respect with every single post and you're ignorant if you're expecting me to reply thoughtfully.

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05-21-2004, 10:55 AM
  #21
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How about Kaberle, 2nd for Cole, 3rd???

I'd love to have cole on the leafs...

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05-21-2004, 10:58 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Porn*
How about Kaberle, 2nd for Cole, 3rd???

I'd love to have cole on the leafs...
Carolina should be all over this deal.

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05-21-2004, 11:03 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
I was about to post a balanced reply mentioning my thoughts, but everytime you feel it's necessary to tell me I am a homer. I know I am, but you're losing all my respect with every single post and you're ignorant if you're expecting me to reply thoughtfully.
I can't help it, because it seems everytime I read your posts, you highlight how the Stars players have so much more value (ie. the Arnott thread) and every time you talk about the Canucks and their players there is a clear dislike for them, or undervaluing for their players.

I'm not saying that Cooke's value is that of a top star player in the league - it's not... but then neither is Cole's (but they both have more value when you take their contracts and intangibles into account)... but seeing things like how Cooke is so limited offensively, while Cole's upside is so much greater, it has me wondering if you have actually watched Cooke play.

I've brought this up a few times over the past couple years - asking you if you've actually watched players play since you make the statements you do, and everytime you fail to respond to it (not once actually have you mentioned how often you watch them play).... I've asked how many times you've even watched the Stars play each year, and not heard a response.

The reason I ask is that I disagree with a lot (or most) of your player evaluations, and I want to know where you're coming from... it seems like you hold on to evaluations based on print from previous years... like how Cooke is so limited offensively, which may be a popular thought a couple years ago when he was never given an offensive role to play, while Cole was coming off his playoff run with the Canes... since then (2 years) a lot has changed... Cole has been inconsistent at both ends of the rink, while Cooke has been stepping up, and has stepped up most recently when he's been put in a top 6 role on both the Canucks and the Canadian team at the Worlds...

so what else am I supposed to think?? we are all homers at heart, but if you're going to make such statements about the players, I would actually hope you have watched them play... and if you have, then support your arguments with reality... saying that Cooke and Cole are so far apart, where one is limited offensively, while the other is a "fairly matured powerforward for his age," when over the last 2 years watching them both play doesn't make that sound right, has got me wondering if you actually watch them play.

Cooke and Cole are both nice players... both are excellent 3rd line players on top teams that can provide intangibles and scoring... both can play effectively on a top 6 role providing offense from there as well - but on a top elite team, both would probably be best in a 3rd line role... neither are true powerforward types that can control a game physically and offensively at a high level (like the Bertuzzis, Tkachuks, Iginlas, Doans, etc), but both bring offense and toughness/grit to their respective lineups.... I don't see a lot of difference in their shift-to-shift talent levels... the difference in the score sheets though is more easy to see, especially when you consider the roles and icetimes in those roles that each has been playing.

comparing their offensive play though by looking at the stats doesn't make much sense to me... you have to account for their roles on their respective teams and who they are playing with - when one doesn't get any top line minutes, and no PP time, his stats are going to be deflated.... but if you watch them, I think you get a better understanding of their talent levels and ability.

from reading so many of your posts that all follow the same formula (Dallas is god, Canucks aren't worthy of being in the same realm, etc) I can't help but get frustrated by your player evaluations.

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05-21-2004, 11:45 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = Dud
Ha.. No thanks?

If I am not mistaken, Cole can play RW as well as LW. He would be on your 2nd line almost certainly. Eric Cole would be a perfect fit for the Sedins, adding some much needed muscle and grit. Not only that, but Cole can score you 20/25 right now, and I believe that may run up to about 30 over the years. If you wouldn't want to aquire him for an older 2nd pairing defenseman and only dropping about 5 picks later in the draft, something is seriously, seriously wrong. IMO, Cole would solidiy your secondary scoring perfectly and then some.

Anyway, Carolina would ask for Kesler + Allen at the very least, this wouldn't even give you the rights to mention his name.
He hasn't scored 20 yet as a 26 year old. Why don't we wait 'till that happens before we say he'll score 30?

Personally, I think Cole is topped out. Another Trent Klatt. That's not a bad thing, but certainly not something I'd give up Sopel and a 1st pick for.

RIAL - while I agree a player like Cole is interesting, consider that we already have Bertuzzi,Cooke, Linden, Ruutu, and May which are all very similar players to Cole (albiet of differing skill levels). I would argue we are already pretty full on physical wingers at the moment.

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05-21-2004, 12:09 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
RIAL - while I agree a player like Cole is interesting, consider that we already have Bertuzzi,Cooke, Linden, Ruutu, and May which are all very similar players to Cole (albiet of differing skill levels). I would argue we are already pretty full on physical wingers at the moment.
I'm not discussing the proposal whatsoever and I never addressed the need for Vancouver to acquire Erik Cole.

I was discussing how Canucks fans can sit there and play the overrated card on Cole, yet be huge fans of Matt Cooke. Doesn't fly.

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