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Would you make an attempt at an RFA?

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Old
04-08-2008, 11:35 AM
  #26
Carlos Ranger
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Brawler View Post
I really question looking to sign an RFA unless his name is Malkin or Jordan Staal. Those are the types of guys worth the money and the picks when and if they become available.
Staal over Perry, really? That's a horrible pick.. Staal is looking like an above average 3rd line center/pk specialist right now. While Perry is better than all of our winger prospects. and Bouwmeester likely better than anything we have on the blueline, and both better than anything we could hope to get in the late 1st '09 round, especially with our track record.

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04-08-2008, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by DruMez View Post
Staal over Perry, really? That's a horrible pick.. Staal is looking like an above average 3rd line center/pk specialist right now. While Perry is better than all of our winger prospects. and Bouwmeester likely better than anything we have on the blueline, and both better than anything we could hope to get in the late 1st '09 round, especially with our track record.
thank you.

I'm not a huge fan of signing RFA's, but if there was a good time now would be it. We already have alot of prospects in the AHL, and a young team. Plus we have a really deep draft this year and we have most of our picks. We can afford to lose some draft picks next year.

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04-08-2008, 11:41 AM
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To me there are only a very small handful of players that it would make sense to sign to an offer sheet. And that doesn't include anyone in this years RFA class. Easier to sign a UFA and not have to give anyone up.

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04-08-2008, 11:44 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
To me there are only a very small handful of players that it would make sense to sign to an offer sheet. And that doesn't include anyone in this years RFA class. Easier to sign a UFA and not have to give anyone up.
so you would like to overpay for an older player, who isn't as good as the younger player w/ not as much upside b/c of a couple draft picks. nice.

signing an RFA is just like making a trade and signing the player to an extension. we love trade proposals on this board but hate signing RFA's. it truly is amazing.

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04-08-2008, 11:52 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
true but Perry's #'s have gotten better every single season. he already has won a cup. He was in the AS game. This kid really isn't hit or miss like Prucha.
How much would we need to pay Perry to keep Anaheim from matching? That's the question, really. This is the compensation chart from last year. The numbers will go up a bit, but it gives a good idea of what we might have to pay in draft picks.

$773,442 or less None
$773,442 - $1,171,882 3rd round pick
$1,171,882 - $2,343,764 2nd round pick
$2,343,764 - $3,515,645 1st and 3rd round pick
$3,515,645 - $4,687,527 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
$4,687,527 - $5,859,412 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
$5,859,412 or more Four 1st round picks

Those numbers are per year of the contract.

Anaheim has $5 million coming off the cap next year from Weight and Selanne (assuming they don't resign) and a bunch of cheap RFAs and some UFAs that may or may not resign. Plus, the cap will be going up 5-6 million.

So, how much would you offer for Perry? At what point would Anaheim not match? How much would you be willing to give up for him?

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04-08-2008, 12:02 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How much would we need to pay Perry to keep Anaheim from matching? That's the question, really. This is the compensation chart from last year. The numbers will go up a bit, but it gives a good idea of what we might have to pay in draft picks.

$773,442 or less None
$773,442 - $1,171,882 3rd round pick
$1,171,882 - $2,343,764 2nd round pick
$2,343,764 - $3,515,645 1st and 3rd round pick
$3,515,645 - $4,687,527 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
$4,687,527 - $5,859,412 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
$5,859,412 or more Four 1st round picks

Those numbers are per year of the contract.

Anaheim has $5 million coming off the cap next year from Weight and Selanne (assuming they don't resign) and a bunch of cheap RFAs and some UFAs that may or may not resign. Plus, the cap will be going up 5-6 million.

So, how much would you offer for Perry? At what point would Anaheim not match? How much would you be willing to give up for him?
What i bolded are the true questions. Let's see what the compensation scales are for this offseason. But right now giving up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd i would do in a heartbeat for a player like Perry (of course i would go the last cent up the limit). But the Ducks would likely match i would think, although who knows w/ Burke.

I definately wouldn't give up 4 first rounders though. I would be hesitant to give up 2firsts but I don't know enough about the depth of the 09 or 10 draft to say for sure. Although in both drafts I do believe we will be picking in the low first round. And again w/ all the good players we are supposed to have coming up through the system, it might not make a difference anyway especially since a draft is essentially a crapshoot.

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04-08-2008, 12:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
What i bolded are the true questions. Let's see what the compensation scales are for this offseason. But right now giving up a 1st, 2nd, 3rd i would do in a heartbeat for a player like Perry (of course i would go the last cent up the limit). But the Ducks would likely match i would think, although who knows w/ Burke.

I definately wouldn't give up 4 first rounders though. I would be hesitant to give up 2firsts but I don't know enough about the depth of the 09 or 10 draft to say for sure. Although in both drafts I do believe we will be picking in the low first round. And again w/ all the good players we are supposed to have coming up through the system, it might not make a difference anyway especially since a draft is essentially a crapshoot.
I'm not high on signing players to offer sheets, really dont wanna go that direction. But if Sather were to do that this year then I'd only like to see him try for O'Sullivan bc it wouldnt cost as much. Otherwise no.

Once you sign someone to an offer sheet, everyone hates you and then teams start doing it to you and I really dont feel like losing AA or Cherry to an offer sheet. Same goes for Staal and Sangs.

Were not desperate and pathetic like the Edmonton Oilers were.

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04-08-2008, 12:08 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How much would we need to pay Perry to keep Anaheim from matching? That's the question, really. This is the compensation chart from last year. The numbers will go up a bit, but it gives a good idea of what we might have to pay in draft picks.

$773,442 or less None
$773,442 - $1,171,882 3rd round pick
$1,171,882 - $2,343,764 2nd round pick
$2,343,764 - $3,515,645 1st and 3rd round pick
$3,515,645 - $4,687,527 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
$4,687,527 - $5,859,412 Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick
$5,859,412 or more Four 1st round picks

Those numbers are per year of the contract.

Anaheim has $5 million coming off the cap next year from Weight and Selanne (assuming they don't resign) and a bunch of cheap RFAs and some UFAs that may or may not resign. Plus, the cap will be going up 5-6 million.

So, how much would you offer for Perry? At what point would Anaheim not match? How much would you be willing to give up for him?
I gotta imagine that whatever Perry would sign for would mean giving up a first round pick and at least one more pick. I wouldn't even consider perry for more than a 1st and 3rd. And with the salary cap going up I definitely see Perry making 3.5 mil per year, putting him into the 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier.

That's just too many picks to give up for a player who we've only see succeed on one (amazing) team.

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Old
04-08-2008, 12:19 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How much would we need to pay Perry to keep Anaheim from matching? That's the question, really. This is the compensation chart from last year. The numbers will go up a bit, but it gives a good idea of what we might have to pay in draft picks.

$3,515,645 - $4,687,527 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick
They have approx 49million committed to 16 players next season.. would need to re-sign or replace about 6. If we throw 4.6 at him, they could definitely have trouble matching. This largely depends on Scott Niedermayer, if he retires that's a 6.7 off the books, and then they would be able to no problem.

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04-08-2008, 12:24 PM
  #35
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If we can get a guy who could definitely realize his potential as a top line forward or top pairing defenseman, then I would go for it. We're deep in depth players, we can afford to give up a few picks for a star. I think Perry fits that bill, but I think the only way he can be had is if he's signed to an offer sheet that requires giving up 4 firsts, something I don't believe he's worth.

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04-08-2008, 12:32 PM
  #36
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You have to remember that Brian Burke and Glen Sather are good buds, and take that annual fishing trip every year. I don't see Sather offering Perry a contract... The only players Sather is going to go after are UFA's....

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04-08-2008, 12:42 PM
  #37
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Sather is not going to poach a player off Burke's roster.Slats and Burke own the Chilliwack Bruins on the WHL,

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04-08-2008, 12:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jagr68NYR94Leetch View Post
I'm not high on signing players to offer sheets, really dont wanna go that direction. But if Sather were to do that this year then I'd only like to see him try for O'Sullivan bc it wouldnt cost as much. Otherwise no.

Once you sign someone to an offer sheet, everyone hates you and then teams start doing it to you and I really dont feel like losing AA or Cherry to an offer sheet. Same goes for Staal and Sangs.
Were not desperate and pathetic like the Edmonton Oilers were.
if you sign you're players to long term contracts before they hit the market it won't make a difference. Plus you can just take them to arbitration in which case nobody can sign them to an offer sheet, and than work out a deal like w/ did w/ Lundy.

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04-08-2008, 12:46 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
so you would like to overpay for an older player, who isn't as good as the younger player w/ not as much upside b/c of a couple draft picks. nice.

signing an RFA is just like making a trade and signing the player to an extension. we love trade proposals on this board but hate signing RFA's. it truly is amazing.
So what if those piks tunred into Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov, and potentially Colbourne? Is a guy like Corey Perry worth all of them? To me, no he isn't...but if we are talking a Dion Phaneuf, a Sidney Crosby, or an Alex Ovechkin...then maybe. That is the select few players I would consider it for. Other than that I don't think it makes that much sense.

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04-08-2008, 12:48 PM
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Mike Green! Not likely to get away though.

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04-08-2008, 12:58 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Lion Hound View Post
So what if those piks tunred into Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov, and potentially Colbourne? Is a guy like Corey Perry worth all of them? To me, no he isn't...but if we are talking a Dion Phaneuf, a Sidney Crosby, or an Alex Ovechkin...then maybe. That is the select few players I would consider it for. Other than that I don't think it makes that much sense.
and what if those picks turn into Lundmark, Brendl, Jessiman, Chernarski, Ferraro, Jeff Brown, Malholtra, Sundstrom... see where I'm going w/ this.

also we don't know how good Sangs and Cherry will actually be they have never played in the NHL yet. They could become busts, they could just be decent, u do realize they aren't guaranteed superstars. You just don't know what they will become. Malholtra was supposed to be amazing. Remember Alexandre Daigle.? he was extremely high rated and just never panned out.

Many first round picks don't live up their potential. so giving up 1 or 2 might not be horrible. like I said before there is no way I would give up 4. a first, 2nd and 3rd no problem. Maybe even 2 1st's a 2nd and 3rd.

Perry is the type of player that everybody on this board has been crying for. Big, young, tons of skill, getting better each season, has playoff experience, one a cup (maybe even 2 this year), but now a couple of draft picks stands in the way. He is only turning 23 this may. He has at least 10 yrs left of awesome hockey. It's not like he is 30 already and we have to give up picks. He is TWENTY FREAKIN THREE.

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04-08-2008, 01:06 PM
  #42
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I don't think that it's "dirty", but there's no money for a Vanek type contract, and I can't think of any lower tier guys I'd be interested.

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04-08-2008, 01:46 PM
  #43
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Do you guys think the Oilers would do it over again knowing then what they know now? I still wouldn't do it. I question what motivates a good young player to up and move from the team that gave him his shot, the teammates he's bled with and fought for, and especially if that team is young and competitive and in contention. It takes a certain kind of player to walk away from all that and I'm not sure that mercernary, me first mentality is something I want to add. And before you come at me with Gomez and Drury, let me say that Drury became a Ranger because he grew up wanting to be a Ranger. And Gomez, well, I never liked Gomez before this season and he's grown on me, but I think part of him did it for the challenge, and the other part did it to stick it to Lamoriello. Even so, just because it seems to have worked out so far doesn't mean it always will. It's blown up in our face plenty of times before with Kamensky, Driver, Kasparaitis, Fleury, etc. You guys can advocate all you want for RFA's. I want no part of them.

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04-08-2008, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Brawler View Post
I understand your point about our drafting but our last three 1st round picks (Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov) look phenomenal.

And an RFA is hardly a veteran. Look at what Thomas Vanek did this season after signing that huge deal. These guys aren't 6 to 10 year vets like Gomez and Drury were. RFAs have a couple of seasons behind them and can still be hit or miss. Look at Prucha. One 30 goal season and he'll probably never score that many again. I really question looking to sign an RFA unless his name is Malkin or Jordan Staal. Those are the types of guys worth the money and the picks when and if they become available.
Yes, they look phenomenal, but only one has made the NHL and justified his draft position.

As for Vanek, his goal total is 7 of last years pace and that's with an absolute putrid 1st half. You also fail to mention that maybe just MAYBE losing Briere and Drury had something to do wih his 20 point drop in production.

You contradict yourself in the statement that you run the risk thatyounger RFA's still have a chance to stutter on the NHL lever where as you run a major risk of those future first rounders not ever making the NHL.

I'd take anyone from that list over any 20-30 range draft pick. In fact I'd take anyone from that list over 4 late 1st rounders. At least you know what you are getting. A youngster that is getting better as opposed to a total variable in a draft pick because at the end of the day, as phenomenal as Sangs and Cherry look, they are still variables and could be 2 wasted 1st rounders.

We keep this years pick

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04-08-2008, 01:52 PM
  #45
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Just for the record, Malhotra was never supposed to be "amazing". He didn't even score 20 goals in his draft year. Malhotra was being hyped up for his maturity and leadership which may have been quite a triat for an 18 year old in a room full of 18 year olds, but is pretty much expected when you get in a lockerroom gull of grown men. Ironically, Muckler got blasted for calling Malhotra out as a potential third liner, which is exactly what he's turned out to be. A good third liner, but nonetheless, a third liner. There was no reason to take him that high. The only people who ever said Malhotra was supposed to be amazing were the spin doctors in the NYR front office who needed a face to pin to their sham of a youth movement.

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04-08-2008, 01:53 PM
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Do you guys think the Oilers would do it over again knowing then what they know now? I still wouldn't do it. I question what motivates a good young player to up and move from the team that gave him his shot, the teammates he's bled with and fought for, and especially if that team is young and competitive and in contention. It takes a certain kind of player to walk away from all that and I'm not sure that mercernary, me first mentality is something I want to add. And before you come at me with Gomez and Drury, let me say that Drury became a Ranger because he grew up wanting to be a Ranger. And Gomez, well, I never liked Gomez before this season and he's grown on me, but I think part of him did it for the challenge, and the other part did it to stick it to Lamoriello. Even so, just because it seems to have worked out so far doesn't mean it always will. It's blown up in our face plenty of times before with Kamensky, Driver, Kasparaitis, Fleury, etc. You guys can advocate all you want for RFA's. I want no part of them.
Absolutely they would. Taking ones production and superimposing it to another situation doesn't take anything else into consideration.

I betcha they would rather have Vanek playing along side Gagner than worry about developing 1st rounders that may be just like Robbie Schremp

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04-08-2008, 01:59 PM
  #47
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Do you guys think the Oilers would do it over again knowing then what they know now? I still wouldn't do it. I question what motivates a good young player to up and move from the team that gave him his shot, the teammates he's bled with and fought for, and especially if that team is young and competitive and in contention. It takes a certain kind of player to walk away from all that and I'm not sure that mercernary, me first mentality is something I want to add. And before you come at me with Gomez and Drury, let me say that Drury became a Ranger because he grew up wanting to be a Ranger. And Gomez, well, I never liked Gomez before this season and he's grown on me, but I think part of him did it for the challenge, and the other part did it to stick it to Lamoriello. Even so, just because it seems to have worked out so far doesn't mean it always will. It's blown up in our face plenty of times before with Kamensky, Driver, Kasparaitis, Fleury, etc. You guys can advocate all you want for RFA's. I want no part of them.
Maybe Corey Perry wants to live in New York.... than are you against it?

don't use hindsight. If we could all use hindsight than nothing would ever be bad. We wouldn't have drafted so piss poor in the 90's and early 2000's. We wouldn't have signed overaged superstars.

but here is a question for you. What happens if next year Penner gets a 60 pt season and oilers play well? to me that contract was completely worth it. And realistically it could happen as he has some other good players surrounding him now. Also remember Perry is already better than Penner and is 3 YEARS YOUNGER.

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04-08-2008, 02:01 PM
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Actually, I wasn't even thinking of the Vanek offer when I posed the question. I was thinking of Dustin Penner. Was it worth all that drama to get a 23 goal scorer? And what's so special about Corey Perry? The guy didn't even get thirty on a good team. I think I could see your point more in Vanek, but this fascination with these guys who don't even put up great numbers on good teams I find quite puzzling.

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04-08-2008, 02:08 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SML View Post
Just for the record, Malhotra was never supposed to be "amazing". He didn't even score 20 goals in his draft year. Malhotra was being hyped up for his maturity and leadership which may have been quite a triat for an 18 year old in a room full of 18 year olds, but is pretty much expected when you get in a lockerroom gull of grown men. Ironically, Muckler got blasted for calling Malhotra out as a potential third liner, which is exactly what he's turned out to be. A good third liner, but nonetheless, a third liner. There was no reason to take him that high. The only people who ever said Malhotra was supposed to be amazing were the spin doctors in the NYR front office who needed a face to pin to their sham of a youth movement.
Right, but taken over Tanguay (47 goals in Q) and Gagne (30).. and Gomez? That's just absurd. Take your 'leadership' guy in the 2nd round..

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04-08-2008, 02:11 PM
  #50
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Maybe Corey Perry wants to live in New York.... than are you against it?

don't use hindsight. If we could all use hindsight than nothing would ever be bad. We wouldn't have drafted so piss poor in the 90's and early 2000's. We wouldn't have signed overaged superstars.

but here is a question for you. What happens if next year Penner gets a 60 pt season and oilers play well? to me that contract was completely worth it. And realistically it could happen as he has some other good players surrounding him now. Also remember Perry is already better than Penner and is 3 YEARS YOUNGER.
You know what, I get the feeling that no matter what I say, you are going to be right AND USE CAPITAL LETTERS TO SHOW ME HOW WRONG I AM. You have your ideas, I have mine. You seem to think Corey Perry is the second coming of Christ, and I think you're wrong. I think it's a bad idea to deal picks before you know their value, and you think I'm wrong. I never said it was wrong to deal picks, period. Wrong to deal them BEFORE YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE. It's like walking into the 7-11 and buying 100 mega millions tickets, and then walking out the door and selling them for 300 bucks. There's a good chance you didn't win anyway, and then you got good value for your money. But there's that chance you did, and if you got rid of that ticket, you'll never live it down. All I'm saying is that I want to see the value of my pick before I go promise it to somebody else. Call it old age, call it wisdom, call it stupidity or alzheimer's if it makes you feel better, I don't care. But I'm not going to keep kicking this dead horse back and forth with you. I agree to disagree, let's call it a day.

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