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Martin out as coach, stays as GM

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Old
04-11-2008, 03:21 PM
  #76
hoax15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Maybe you didn't read the part where I said, "specifically scoring." As in a legitimate top line player.
And a new coach.
With what money?

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04-11-2008, 03:22 PM
  #77
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With what money?
American money.

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04-11-2008, 03:35 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i'll throw it right back - nothing like refusing reason.
reason is subjective, and your reasoning means nothing to me

accountability is clear,

when you fail you either admit your faults and accept responsibility or lay the balme elsewhere

tell me, where does jacques fall?

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04-11-2008, 03:57 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
reason is subjective, and your reasoning means nothing to me

accountability is clear,

when you fail you either admit your faults and accept responsibility or lay the balme elsewhere

tell me, where does jacques fall?
well, then i have failed and i need to do better. i thought i was providing and backing up a reasonable POV (even if you disagreed), not a meaningless one.

perhaps, yes, JM could have accepted some more responsibility. he has, though, articulated a clear vision for the franchise and offered a clear dissection of what's gone wrong this season in a hockey sense. in the bigger picture, his admissions are not really necessary or to be expected - do any other GMs routinely sit down at the end of the year and heap the blame on their own shoulders. hell, one could even make the argument that JM was really forced to take the position he has with regard to the fans and ownership because the situation is so unstable here. if he were to come out and say "i failed", how could cohen justify keeping him here in the face of what we heard about last night.


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 05:03 PM. Reason: removing politics
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04-11-2008, 04:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
well, then i have failed and i need to do better. i thought i was providing and backing up a reasonable POV (even if you disagreed), not a meaningless one.

perhaps, yes, JM could have accepted some more responsibility. he has, though, articulated a clear vision for the franchise and offered a clear dissection of what's gone wrong this season in a hockey sense. in the bigger picture, his admissions are not really necessary or to be expected - do any other GMs routinely sit down at the end of the year and heap the blame on their own shoulders. hell, one could even make the argument that JM was really forced to take the position he has with regard to the fans and ownership because the situation is so unstable here. if he were to come out and say "i failed", how could cohen justify keeping him here in the face of what we heard about last night.
well I guess what I'm saying is that I feel that it takes a real man to own up to a mistake, something martin clearly has not done

he has looked very unprofessional and foolish throwing Ollie under the bus, when Ollie was the only one who was a man and took responsibility

and for no reason throwing Salei under the bus when he traded him, nothing gained there by doing that in the media, and Salei is doing pretty well in colorado

and by continuing to ride the injury excuse to forgiveness

I really question his leadership and ehtical makeup and I am ashamed that he is our GM, but then again we are used to this with the collection we've assemebled over the years


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 05:04 PM.
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04-11-2008, 04:09 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
well I guess what I'm saying is that I feel that it takes a real man to own up to a mistake, something martin has not done

he has looked very unprofessional and foolish throwing Ollie under the bus, when Ollie was the only one who was a man and took responsibility

and for no reason throwing Salei under the bus when he traded him, nothing gained there by doing that in the media, and Salei is doing pretty well in colorado

and by continuing to ride the injury excuse to forgiveness

I really question his leadership and ehtical makeup and I am ashamed that he is our GM, but then again we are used to this with the collection we've assemebled over the years
Olli had a chance to take this team to the playoffs and he CHOKED. He FAILED. He didn't SHOW UP.

If Olli was playing his hardest and he failed it would be one thing, but he was barely even playing in many of those games. He cost us goals in pivotal games by floating in a daze...

Martin was 100% right in calling out our team captain for deciding to take nights off... Olli was unprofessional and letting his team down...

I am sick and tired of hearing our beloved captain admitting his faults but not putting forth the effort to correct them!


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 05:05 PM. Reason: quoting deleted material
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04-11-2008, 04:23 PM
  #82
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The TSN link says that he hasn't accepted the GM role yet...He was ASKED to stay...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=234003&l...headlines_main

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04-11-2008, 04:33 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Cats Gambler View Post
The TSN link says that he hasn't accepted the GM role yet...He was ASKED to stay...

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=234003&l...headlines_main
perhaps the thread title should be changed. may i suggest "florida panthers on the precipice of complete and utter (not to mention unmitigated) organizational collapse".



Last edited by zeroG: 04-11-2008 at 04:48 PM.
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04-11-2008, 04:55 PM
  #84
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Thread closed until I can clean the politics out of it. It's off-topic and blatant trolling to go bashing any political figure on any board other than the (hidden from view) politics board. This is not a group-think society here and bashing any politician is itching for a fight, which has no place here.

EDIT: Thread cleaned and re-opened.

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04-11-2008, 05:23 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
perhaps the thread title should be changed. may i suggest "florida panthers on the precipice of complete and utter (not to mention unmitigated) organizational collapse".

Completely agree. It is.. its sad to see though. I liked what Jacques was doing with the club, its too bad Cohen doesn't have any patience at all.

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04-11-2008, 05:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Nate The Great View Post
Completely agree. It is.. its sad to see though. I liked what Jacques was doing with the club, its too bad Cohen doesn't have any patience at all.
He has patience, and thats why he asked Martin to stay as GM. You can see this team was underachieving, and maybe a new voice in the locker room is what this team needs.

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04-11-2008, 05:29 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
He has patience, and thats why he asked Martin to stay as GM. You can see this team was underachieving, and maybe a new voice in the locker room is what this team needs.
He asked him to stay on as GM, but the coach revolving door appears to be back, and im sure itll be back a couple seasons from now, so on and so forth. ITs getting old, actually its been old for quite some time. sincere and a good person is one thing, but being the owner of the team, he has made some horrid moves.

What does this say to other coaches around the league?
Coaches constantly get fired from this organization, same with general managers, and having Nieuwy leave really helped our situation. BS, stupid BS. I don't see how anyone would want to come work for those morons calling the shots.

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04-11-2008, 05:33 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
He has patience, and thats why he asked Martin to stay as GM. You can see this team was underachieving, and maybe a new voice in the locker room is what this team needs.
not everyone was underachieving. i'll leave it at that. perhaps a new voice could help but the way this whole thing went down was pure bush league. you can't cut a GM off at the knees, embarrass him, then ask him to stay and expect good to come of it. it's the same mentality, the same decision patterns all over again. this team desperately needs someone between cohen and hockey operations.

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04-11-2008, 06:28 PM
  #89
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I think Martin has a good hockey mind and has the franchise going in the right direction. I'd like him to stay. Having said that, I don't think having the same individual serving as both GM & HC is in the best interests of an organization or the individual. Historically it simply doesn't work.

Martin cannot do both jobs simultaneously and effectively. I know that Martin enjoys coaching most of all. That is not in the franchise's best interests right now. This team needs stability, but at the GM position - not at HC. Martin has demonstrated that he has his eye on the future. That is a welcome and needed change in the Panthers front office.

Behind the bench, Martin has failed in one fundamental respect. He does not get the most out of his players' abilities. You have a choice in that situation; you either get rid of the players or you change coaches. It's obvious which of those scenarios is most likely.

Some are alarmed that Martin as GM will bring in a like-minded-defense-first coach. I think that's fine. If a coach can be brought in that can make the players buy into the system, to play disciplined hockey, I think many will be surprised at how dangerous this team can be.

I disagree with the sentiment that Martin's system is flawed. It isn't. When the players play within the system and aggressively exploit mistakes (which is what the system is predicated on) the team looks very strong. The problem is simply that the team doesn't consistently play within the system. That, ultimately, is the coaches responsibility (although it is the players' fault).

Can JM swallow his pride and accept that his greatest value lies in the front office rather than behind the bench? For his sake, and the sake of the organization, I hope he can.

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04-11-2008, 06:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Olli had a chance to take this team to the playoffs and he CHOKED. He FAILED. He didn't SHOW UP.

If Olli was playing his hardest and he failed it would be one thing, but he was barely even playing in many of those games. He cost us goals in pivotal games by floating in a daze...

Martin was 100% right in calling out our team captain for deciding to take nights off... Olli was unprofessional and letting his team down...

I am sick and tired of hearing our beloved captain admitting his faults but not putting forth the effort to correct them!
if anyone is to blame it's Martin for putting **** players like McLean, Peltonen, Zednik and the inexperienced Olesz on the first line and expecting Jokinen to just "make it work".


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 08:01 PM. Reason: flaming
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04-11-2008, 06:57 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
perhaps the thread title should be changed. may i suggest "florida panthers on the precipice of complete and utter (not to mention unmitigated) organizational collapse".

Kind of reminds me of the Dolphins once Marino joined up and left the front office in a span of a week. It was ALL downhill after that.

So when are the Panthers hiring Cam Cameron?

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04-11-2008, 07:00 PM
  #92
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Any word on Martin making a decision yet, hopefully he leaves so a competent GM can be hired?

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04-11-2008, 07:04 PM
  #93
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I don't know why people think this franchise is going to fall off a cliff. We already fell off the cliff a few years ago. JM didn't do any damage except for maybe Olli but who knows how that will turn out and now we have a chance to acquire the right people who will make move this franchise in the right direction. Martin wasn't working.

I understand people being hesitant to change because it does seem like every time we get a new coach or GM we take a step back. However, if we don't make a change we risk more of the same. Staying the course is no longer an option.

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04-11-2008, 07:06 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by braindeadalive View Post
if anyone is to blame it's Martin for putting **** players like McLean, Peltonen, Zednik and the inexperienced Olesz on the first line and expecting Jokinen to just "make it work".
The blame-Jokinens-linemates-for-Jokinens-failures argument doesn't work.

1. Jokinen put up his best numbers working with Stumpel.

2. Jokinen's problem isn't his decreased scoring. It lies with his lack of performance away from the puck. I would have been very happy with his numbers (other than +/-) had he been playing sound defensive hockey and aggressively battling for the puck. He wasn't generally doing those things. On the Olesz - Jokinen - McLean line, Jokinen was the weakest two way player. The only thing that wasn't working on that line was Jokinen.


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 08:00 PM.
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04-11-2008, 07:10 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
The blame-Jokinens-linemates-for-Jokinens-failures argument doesn't work.

1. Jokinen put up his best numbers working with Stumpel.

2. Jokinen's problem isn't his decreased scoring. It lies with his lack of performance away from the puck. I would have been very happy with his numbers (other than +/-) had he been playing sound defensive hockey and aggressively battling for the puck. He wasn't generally doing those things. On the Olesz - Jokinen - McLean line, Jokinen was the weakest two way player. The only thing that wasn't working on that line was Jokinen.
Maybe the Panthers should get rid of Jokinen so they can put all 4th liners on the first line? Who cares about scoring as long as there's two-way play.

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04-11-2008, 07:19 PM
  #96
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Kind of reminds me of the Dolphins once Marino joined up and left the front office in a span of a week. It was ALL downhill after that.

So when are the Panthers hiring Cam Cameron?
you're right - total bush league. the only thing that can save this organization right now is for cohen to get his head out of his *** and find a director of hockey operations, just as the dolphins did with parcells. there's no guarantee that will bring a winner but one thing is certain at this point - cohen cannot get things right on the hockey operations side (and no, i'm not talking about JM - that was the one thing he's gotten right thus far). he can't even handle the basic processes.

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04-11-2008, 07:48 PM
  #97
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Maybe the Panthers should get rid of Jokinen so they can put all 4th liners on the first line? Who cares about scoring as long as there's two-way play.

1. Olesz & McLean are far from fourth line players. Ideal first line forwards. No. Then again, Jokinen wasn't either with his lackluster play.

2. Two way forward > Scoring floater. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent. Scoring one doesn't help if you give up two.

I'm not advocating trading Jokinen.

I'm advocating that Jokinen should be held accountable in the same way that JM should be held accountable as head coach.


Last edited by Acadmus: 04-11-2008 at 07:58 PM.
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04-11-2008, 08:53 PM
  #98
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1. Olesz & McLean are far from fourth line players. Ideal first line forwards. No. Then again, Jokinen wasn't either with his lackluster play.

2. Two way forward > Scoring floater. The object of the game is to score more than the opponent. Scoring one doesn't help if you give up two.

I'm not advocating trading Jokinen.

I'm advocating that Jokinen should be held accountable in the same way that JM should be held accountable as head coach.
Never said Olesz is a 4th liner, I said he's inexperienced, McLean etc. would be 4th liners on any decent team, 3rd liners on others.

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04-11-2008, 09:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
Olli had a chance to take this team to the playoffs and he CHOKED. He FAILED. He didn't SHOW UP.

If Olli was playing his hardest and he failed it would be one thing, but he was barely even playing in many of those games. He cost us goals in pivotal games by floating in a daze...

Martin was 100% right in calling out our team captain for deciding to take nights off... Olli was unprofessional and letting his team down...

I am sick and tired of hearing our beloved captain admitting his faults but not putting forth the effort to correct them!

The plus minus stat is the most misleading and worthless stat there is, it is for people that don't have a clue as to what is really going on on the ice, which is why that is all Coehn talked about yesterday. This whole notion that he struggled this year even with the goals he scored is based on this stat. You can get a minus for covering your man and your goalie giving up a weak shot from the point, you can get a plus for being on the ice and not even touching the puck. Power plays and short handed situations don't even count, which nowadays makes up a big part of the game. The fact that Ollie draws the other team's top defenseman and offensive line is also not accountable, the fact that he has stiffs on his line also is not counted.

Ollie's plus/minus was not based on just a couple of weeks where you say he choked. if he choked, how about all the times where Jay was left with his stick in his hand when the man he was to pick up was scoring the late goal untouched. Ollie hustled as much and no less than almost everyone on the team, except for maybe Booth and lets hope Booth keeps it up once he signs a real contract. The difference is he is a man and he knows he still could have done better, and he is willing to take the blame for the rest of the team. As far as chloking, martin choked as a coach and GM a million times worse than Ollie and he has no class or professionalism by blaming everything and everyone but who he sees in the mirror.

Plus minus stats, lets see, the flyers made the playoffs and many here were asking and begging for Brier. His plus minus is a MINUS 22. Alexander Semin who plays with Ovechkin is a minus 18. Boyle is a minus 29, Lecavallier is a minus 17. Bill Guerin is a minus 16. Marion Hossa is a minus 14. Could we use any of these guys, regardless of their plus minus??? Hell yeah, and I would drop any of the third line stiffs martin has assembled here in a heart beat.

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04-11-2008, 10:11 PM
  #100
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Agreed. Nice Post. Glad Martin is gone. Hopefully he doesn't bring in his mirror image as coach of this team if he stays as GM. Lets hope whoever the GM is, we bring in the right coach to inspire these players with a system better suited for there talents, get some help for Jokinen, get another Dman, shed the dead weight on this team, and stay healthy for once.

Today was a good day.

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