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Richter = HOF'er?

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02-04-2004, 04:27 PM
  #1
Shadowtron
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Richter = HOF'er?

Should Richter go to the Hall of fame?

Yes?

No?


I think that if anything gets him in there, it'll be the heroics in 94 and internationally in 96. While his career, statistically, wasn't stellar (as far as I know), you couldn't ask for a better big game goalie. I don't know if his career number will get him in or not, but his big time performances might. What do you guys think?

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02-04-2004, 04:35 PM
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Davisian
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Saw the thread on this in the other forum, and since this topic was already covered at the beginning of the year (after his announcement) I'm just tired of debating it..

I can see many points about why he should not, but I personally think there's many more reasons why he should..

I think he belongs in the hall.. Not on his first and maybe not on his second ballot, but someday.. I'm not sure how the voting works, but I think by getting in the third or fourth chance will show that while he may not have been the best of his era (Roy, Hasek, Belfour.) he was still one of hockeys greats and worthy of the HOCKEY (not NHL) hall of fame..



(BTW- I purposely left Brodeur's name off the above because he's got so much left to play, I consider him of the "next" era..)

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02-04-2004, 04:42 PM
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No doubt he's a Hall of Famer. Winningest goalie in Ranger history (and may I add thats a pretty long history), was a key component in the Rangers' first Cup in 54 years, and backstopped Team USA to Gold and Silver at the World Cup and Olympics. If the greatest American goalie ever doesnt get in, nobody should.

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02-04-2004, 04:55 PM
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If Giacomin is in, so should Richter.

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02-04-2004, 05:31 PM
  #5
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Cup and Team USA aside, shouldn't his 300 wins get him in?

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02-04-2004, 05:33 PM
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Do want to be negative on Richter but I personally don't think his NHL stats are good enough for the Hall.....If you take his contributions to Team USA then I believe a case could be made........But on NHL stats alone, I don't believe it is enough.

Games: 666
Wins: 301
Shutouts: 24
GAA: 2.89

Very average.

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02-04-2004, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
Do want to be negative on Richter but I personally don't think his NHL stats are good enough for the Hall.....If you take his contributions to Team USA then I believe a case could be made........But on NHL stats alone, I don't believe it is enough.

Games: 666
Wins: 301
Shutouts: 24
GAA: 2.89

Very average.

301 wins is average? I agree, the 24 shutouts and the 2.89 GAA is "average", but remember that he played on a pretty "average" defensive team -- horrendous in the latter half if you ask me -- in an era where scoring was way higher than it is now.

His '94 performance, his '96 WC performance, and his overall class and work ethic as a player and as a person, along with very strong numbers, put Mike Richter in the HOF.

Just my opinion, though.

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02-04-2004, 07:16 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr4life5186
If the greatest American goalie ever doesnt get in, nobody should.
Using that logic every greatest American goalie prior to Richter should already be in. There's always a "greatest" but being the greatest doesn't mean you're great or a HoFer. It merely means you're better than what came before.

I love Richter, he was a legendary Ranger and a fine human being, but if the Hall is to mean something he really doesn't deserve to get in. He was never a great goalie, although he played great games and even great series. The Hall should be reserved for genuine greatness, IMO.

In short, if you have to argue for the guy, he shouldn't be in.

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02-04-2004, 08:05 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetchie
301 wins is average?
He played 14 seasons, averaging 21 wins a season... that's average.

Quote:
His '94 performance, his '96 WC performance, and his overall class and work ethic as a player and as a person, along with very strong numbers, put Mike Richter in the HOF.
Two strong International appearances and a Stanley Cup doesn't put a goalie in the hall of fame. Richter lost 40% of the games he played in the National Hockey League. His NHL numbers were also quite average.

There's no reason why he should go to the hall ahead of Barrasso, Vernon, or Moog.

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02-04-2004, 08:32 PM
  #10
Shadowtron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
He played 14 seasons, averaging 21 wins a season... that's average.


Two strong International appearances and a Stanley Cup doesn't put a goalie in the hall of fame. Richter lost 40% of the games he played in the National Hockey League. His NHL numbers were also quite average.

There's no reason why he should go to the hall ahead of Barrasso, Vernon, or Moog.

It's not really about who he goes before or how soon he gets there. I think everyone here realizes that while he may one day sneak into the Hall, a strong argument has to be made for him. The feelings I got from your post is that you might think that we Rangers fans are talking about him going to the Hall before he gets his jacket off after tonight's ceremony. Not at all. What I should have asked is do you think Richter could be a Hall of Famer at some piont way down the road?

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02-04-2004, 10:01 PM
  #11
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I think Richter will get in. Playing in New York will be a big help, ending the 54 year old draught will push him over the top.

IMO he should fall jsut a bit short of the Hall of Fame, which should be reserved for the best of the best.





BTW: Richter is not a lock for the title of "best American goalie of all-time"

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02-04-2004, 10:39 PM
  #12
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NO

doubt

about it...


}:-)>

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02-04-2004, 11:34 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJDevs430
NO

doubt

about it...


}:-)>
Too bad he didn't face 20 shots a game and played for the best defensive team in the best defensive era.

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02-04-2004, 11:35 PM
  #14
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if JD has the sway he thinks he has with the board at the hall of fame, richter will probably end up there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
BTW: Richter is not a lock for the title of "best American goalie of all-time"
if he played on a defensively minded team he would be a lock. the rangers defense left him high and dry so many times, and most of the time he came up with the huge save, lots of times even the secondary save. its a shock he actually has the stats that he has. anyway, who is your choise?

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02-05-2004, 12:27 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Richter is not a lock for the title of "best American goalie of all-time"
Who do you think can legitamently compete with him as being the best US goaltender?

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Old
02-05-2004, 12:43 AM
  #16
NJDevs430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Too bad he didn't face 20 shots a game and played for the best defensive team in the best defensive era.
Whoa...back off. Guess we're a little sensitive tonight, are we?
You should go back and read what I said.
I agreed that he should be in the HOF. I said No doubt about it... as in No doubt about it...he belongs in the Hall.
No need to get all sarcastic about it. I'm not even going to address your specious argument.
Yeesh!
}:-(>

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02-05-2004, 12:51 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Who do you think can legitamently compete with him as being the best US goaltender?
Brimsek and Barrasso.

Barrasso was the better NHL goaltender... not sure how many times he represented Team USA though.

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02-05-2004, 02:14 AM
  #18
rickyrod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go pierre hedin
Brimsek and Barrasso.
not sure how many times he represented Team USA though.
i don't think he ever did.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...?pid%5B%5D=216

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02-05-2004, 07:42 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #37-#93-#27
Who do you think can legitamently compete with him as being the best US goaltender?
People seem to automatically regard Mike Richter as the best American goalie ever. I don't see it quite so clear cut.

I present 4 candidates:

Tom Barasso

369-277-86 .560 win%
38 shutouts
3.23 GAA

Playoff record
61-54 .530 win%
6 shutouts
3.01 GAA
2 Stanley Cups

NHL All-Rookie Team (1984)
NHL First All-Star Team (1984)
Calder Memorial Trophy (1984)
Vezina Trophy (1984)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1985, 1993)
Shared William M. Jennings Trophy (1985) with Bob Sauve

NHL All-Star Game (1985)

International Career
US WJC team in 1983
US Canada Cup team in 1984
US World Championship team in 1986
Canada Cup team in 1988 (played just one game)

Frankie Brimsek

252-182-80 .570 win%
40 Sutouts
2.70 GAA
lost 2 years due to military service during WWII

Playoff record
32-36 .470 win%
2 Shutouts
2.54 GAA
2 Stanley Cups

Calder Memorial Trophy (1939)
First All-Star Team Goalie (1939, 1942)
Second All-Star Team Goalie (1940, 1941, 1943, 1946, 1947, 1948)
Vezina Trophy (1939, 1942)


Mike Richter

301-258-73 .530 win%
24 Shutouts
2.89 GAA

Playoffs
41-33 .550 win%
9 Shutouts
2.68 GAA
1 Stanley Cup

Named World Cup MVP (1996)
Played in NHL All-Star Game (1992, 1994, 2000)

International Career
US WJC in 1985 & 86
US World Championship team in 86 (played 1 game) & 87 (2 games)
Oylmpic Team in 1988
US Canada Cup team in 1992
US World Championship team in 93 (played 7 games)
US World Cup in 1996 Won Gold
US Olympic Team in 1998
US Olympic Team in 2002 (won silver)


John Vanbiesbrouck

374-346-119 .520 win%
40 Shutouts
2.97 GAA

Playoffs
28-38 .420 win%
5 Shutouts
2.67 GAA

NHL First All-Star Team (1986)
Vezina Trophy (1986)
NHL Second All-Star Team (1994)
NHL All-Star Game (1994, 1996, 1997)

International Career
US WJC goalie 1982 & 83
US World Championship team in 85, 87, 89, 91
US Canada Cup team 1992 (1 game)
US Olympic Team 1998 (1 game)

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Old
02-05-2004, 08:08 AM
  #20
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I'm sure when people say best "american" goaltender they look at his international stats, which is what they should. Put Richter on the late 80-early 90 Pens and he'd have 2 cups. It's not like he wouldn't. There is not one team where you can say if Richter was in net for them, they wouldn't have won the cup that year. The fact he's even getting strong consideration with his not great NHL career statistics speaks volumes.

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02-05-2004, 08:09 AM
  #21
Shadowtron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJDevs430
Whoa...back off. Guess we're a little sensitive tonight, are we?
You should go back and read what I said.
I agreed that he should be in the HOF. I said No doubt about it... as in No doubt about it...he belongs in the Hall.
No need to get all sarcastic about it. I'm not even going to address your specious argument.
Yeesh!
}:-(>

37's repsonse is understandable. I, too, thought the giant "NO" was your way of being sarcastic. It looked as if you were saying no he shouldn't be. I hope this clears the air a little.

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Old
02-05-2004, 08:11 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
People seem to automatically regard Mike Richter as the best American goalie ever. I don't see it quite so clear cut.
Stats aren't all that telling. Have any of those other goalies play for the Rangers these last 7 years and let's seen what kind of stats they have then. Put Richter on almost any other team in his last 6 years, and hss #'s improve dramatically. Playing behind the league's worst defense EVERY single year for his last 6 years did nothing to improve his stats. The Rangers could have been playing 2 goalies at once and their stats would suck.

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02-05-2004, 08:24 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Stats aren't all that telling. Have any of those other goalies play for the Rangers these last 7 years and let's seen what kind of stats they have then. Put Richter on almost any other team in his last 6 years, and hss #'s improve dramatically. Playing behind the league's worst defense EVERY single year for his last 6 years did nothing to improve his stats. The Rangers could have been playing 2 goalies at once and their stats would suck.
I'm not saying that Richter isn't the best American goalie ever, just that it's not so clear cut.

Barasso wasn't exactly playing behind Stevens & Niedermayer during his career.

I'm not going to argue Brimsek, because I never saw him play.

Between Barasso, Richter, and Vanbiesbrouck, I think it's very close, and an argument could be made for any of the three.

IMO when all were at their very best, Richter was the best of the three goalies.

Richter was not as consistant, durable or had the longevity the others had.


Gun to my head my choices would be:

For one game: Richter
For a career: Barasso

Flip of a coin IMO.

Vanbiesbrouck may have been the best of the 3 during the regular season, but never quite got it done during the playoffs; although him taking the Panthers to to the Finals may be as impressive as anything the otehr two goalies did.

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Old
02-05-2004, 10:27 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Stats aren't all that telling. Have any of those other goalies play for the Rangers these last 7 years and let's seen what kind of stats they have then. Put Richter on almost any other team in his last 6 years, and hss #'s improve dramatically. Playing behind the league's worst defense EVERY single year for his last 6 years did nothing to improve his stats. The Rangers could have been playing 2 goalies at once and their stats would suck.
The Rangers have had all-star teams in front of Mike Richter for six years, they could add almost any defender they wanted or play any system they wanted to protect the goaltender. He did not play for expansion teams or rebuilding teams, he played for teams expected to win every year.

After Beezer left and he became the full-time starter he did not make the playoffs in seven of eleven years in a league where half the teams qualify.

Other goalies have done much more and with much less.

Classy man, but not a Hall of Famer.

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02-05-2004, 10:29 AM
  #25
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I see it pretty much the same way, John. The guys who deserve to be in the hall are the ones who stayed on top of the game over a long period of time. Richter, for a few years, was about as good as anyone else around, but he couldn't maintain that later in his career. Not entirely his fault, bad teams and injuries contributed to that, but those are the breaks. Cam Neely is in the same boat. You have to induct guys into the hall based on what they did, not what they might have been able to do had they stayed healthy or played on better teams.

And, the hall should be kept exclusive. You put Richter in, there's at least half-a-dozen others that you pretty much have to as well. And with only 30-plus goalies in there now, I don't know how you can induct that many guys from the last decade or so.

It's such a subjective thing, and there will always be guys out there for whom there are pretty good arguments for or against. Looking at the guys who played about the same time as Richter, I'd say you'd have to peg Roy and Hasek as no-brainers. Brodeur probably too, although he is overrated and not in the same league as the first two. There are others you could make strong cases for, I'd say Belfour, Vernon and Barrasso, in that order, are the strongest.

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