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Is there anyway Sean Avery returns next season?

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Old
04-15-2008, 10:01 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by True Blue View Post
I think that Kris Draper would disgree with you. So would most of Lemiuex's opponents.
True there is no love from Draper.

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04-16-2008, 01:19 AM
  #77
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How do you NOT bring Avery back?

And Shanny should also be back. You win cups with guys like him.

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04-16-2008, 01:42 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
That's not true, there were plenty of Devils fans that COULD NOT STAND Lemieux's cheap shot and/or clown antics on the ice, including me. It was often an embarrassment to the team IMO, especially when he did stick work behind the refs back etc... But Lemieux to Avery is a terrible comparison as Lemieux won four Stanley Cups and a playoff MVP trophy. I think he scored >30 goals about 5 or 6 times too. Unless you simply meant that they are both agitator type players, which then I guess is a fair comparison.

And to the asertion made by some that none of the Rangers had a problem with it, check out these comments by SV. To bad Stevey V doesnt play defense for the Devils.

Backup goaltender Steve Valiquette, on the other hand, didn't think it was a fair tactic. "It's not in the spirit of the game, let's call a spade a spade,'' Valiquette said of Avery's face-guarding of Brodeur. "It worked. It's effective, but it's not... it's a gentleman's game. Hockey is a gentleman's game. Just like golf. "You can't do that. It's like yelling in somebody's backswing.'' Valiquette said he wasn't comfortable with the Avery version. And he said he was happy the NHL acted quickly to make the tactic illegal. "I wouldn't have been happy if it had happened to me,'' Valiquette said. "I probably would have reacted different, too. Sean would have been picking his teeth up off the ice, if it was me.''

http://www.nj.com/devils/index.ssf/2..._beholder.html
Over the course of 15-20 years Lemieux won 4 cups. Avery is in year 6 (?) 7 (?). Lemieux made his mark as a agitating, sometimes dirty player who had some talent. I don't think an Avery comparison is far fetched and I'm not sure how many cups Lemieux won is a reason to disqualify the comparison. A lot depends on who you played with. Let's see Brodeur and Patrick Roy were his goalies--very arguably both in the top 5 all time. In any case you may have cringed at some of Lemieux's antics but you have no problem living with the cups he helped win--and why should you? I agree with True Blue's remarks. Avery raises our teams combat level. We tend to be push overs when he's not in the lineup. He brings a pro-active instead of re-active element to our physical game. Every team needs that pro-active element and most teams have some player or two who fit that bill. When other teams fans say they don't like him--it's more or less proof to us that what he does is working.

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04-16-2008, 01:44 AM
  #79
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hey keep it simple...if he wants to go to Florida or TB then let him..if not then ask him to sign by draft or tell mgmt which western team he'd like to go to...lets be fair they'll be jumping over each other to get a 20 goal, 200pim guy like avery who can play Center or LW on both PP and PK. He's still in his 20's, and has excellent versatility,,,but the NYR have plenty of talent at C. If they really want a quality grinder more than a scorer they can go after Dan Paille or Mat cooke both WILL be available this UFA period.

do what the Preds did and trade away @ the Draft or b4 any impending ufa's to non conference rivals...imagine the NYR lose Rachunek +Nylander to conference rivals...it doesn't totally blow up in their face this season since Rachunek is on a very large nj blueline and Nylander is injured for over half the season but Roz+Avery should both be signed b4 the Draft or traded before the draft in order to get them away from conference rivals...at worst they could package them w/ guys like Pock/Mara etc...+some mid round picks for a pair of 2nd round picks

NYR have got Brandon Dubinsky, Fedor Tyutin, and a very good prospect that was key in the Avery trade last year in the 2nd round.

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04-16-2008, 02:10 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
The fact that Avery is currently the make or break player says to me there's a lot of room for improvement on the roster.
Why? Talk about towing the stereotypical anti-Avery line...I'm surprised Mel. Support yourself.

Forget about the name on the back of the jersey for a second and look at the tangibles he brings here. Like him or not, he can play this way for any team in the league and be this kind of factor for any team in the league...so long as he's surrounded by the right influences.

Name another player in the league that provides us with the kind of flexibility that Avery does at nearly every position. He can play on a scoring line, checking line, energy line, on the powerplay, on the penalty kill, and he can also be a leader. This is what you're paying for: his flexibility. He may not have the statistical production, but lets face it, neither does Drury. He brings other things that make him deserving of the money. And as I said, he's shown a signficant amount of maturity in his game over the last two years - enough to make me want to gamble on his future (a future that's going to be without some of the influences that have thus far kept him in check - Shanny, Jagr, etc.).

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Improvement that's not going to take place when/if he commands a decent sized chunk of the salary budget, at which point you do what we're doing now. Foresake them and pray that the sideshow is enough to carry this team in spite of some pretty obvious shortcomings.
I agree, there are obvious shortcomings, but getting rid of Sean is only going to add to those shortcomings. He isn't the problem here. In fact, he is in large part responsible for the reason why we're even in the playoffs. He is the edge of our team.

So, yes, its fair to compare his production to that of his teammates if it's going to come down to one or the other in terms of re-signing. Who adds the most value. Sideshow included he's worth $3 million.

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04-16-2008, 07:03 AM
  #81
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Those are certainly numbers Avery can point to when he becomes an unrestricted free agent at seasonís end. He is seeking about $4 million a year and cut off contract negotiations with the Rangers in early March when they were not offering those numbers. He made $1.9 million this season.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/16/sp...ts&oref=slogin

Sean isn't getting $4 million from the Rangers.The Rangers reportedly offered or placed his value at $2.75 million.

The Rangers shouldn't break the bank for Avery and/or Roszival

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04-16-2008, 07:06 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Why? Talk about towing the stereotypical anti-Avery line...I'm surprised Mel. Support yourself.
You're right that Avery gives the team flexibility, but he's not being used as a flex player. He's a staple on the generally ineffective 1st PP unit. He's spent a ton if time on the first line and never sees duty below the 2nd. The team is not only counting on Avery to bring the intangibles, but also to generate the offense that his teammates aren't.

I'm not anti-Avery. I just think it's foolish of the Rangers to continue with this strategy. This isn't about "getting rid" of him. It's about whether you can afford his services AND make the necessary roster upgrades.

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04-16-2008, 08:11 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Over the course of 15-20 years Lemieux won 4 cups. Avery is in year 6 (?) 7 (?). Lemieux made his mark as a agitating, sometimes dirty player who had some talent. I don't think an Avery comparison is far fetched and I'm not sure how many cups Lemieux won is a reason to disqualify the comparison. A lot depends on who you played with. Let's see Brodeur and Patrick Roy were his goalies--very arguably both in the top 5 all time.
Well you make a fair point that about the timeline, and obviously Avery has some years to win a cup, but my point wasnt simply just about cups won but about overall hockey skill in general. Lemieux scored about 400 goals in his career and there arent many guys who play the game that manage to put up those numbers.

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04-16-2008, 08:33 AM
  #84
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I'll tell you this: after looking at their second halfs and playoffs, I make more of an effort keeping Avery than I do Rozsival.

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04-16-2008, 08:39 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
You're right that Avery gives the team flexibility, but he's not being used as a flex player. He's a staple on the generally ineffective 1st PP unit. He's spent a ton if time on the first line and never sees duty below the 2nd. The team is not only counting on Avery to bring the intangibles, but also to generate the offense that his teammates aren't.

I'm not anti-Avery. I just think it's foolish of the Rangers to continue with this strategy. This isn't about "getting rid" of him. It's about whether you can afford his services AND make the necessary roster upgrades.
Not used as a flex player? Everytime there is an injury he's the guy that gets moved around: first line wing, second line center, third line wing. He started the year moving up and down from the 2nd to the 3rd line and when Straka went down and nothing else worked he moved to the 1st line. He gets used in every situation! Also, for what its worth: Avery is 7th amongst forwards in pp toi/g (behind guys like Prucha even).

Add to the fact that he can contribute at everyone of those positions and that is why he deserves 3+. I'm not sure I want to pay him 4, but that is why we negotiate. I also want to clarify my own position: I was under the impression he was asking 3.25-3.5 and the Rangers offered 2.5-2.75. I'd read it somewhere, it seems to have increased since then (through the media second-hand reports). I'm not sure he'll get over $4M from any other franchise, because it's a gamble on their behalf that they can create the proper environment for him to succeed. Who really knows whether these reports are accurate - I'm a cynic in regards to "I've heard he's asking..." type of articles.

I understand you're point that we need to find permanent solutions for the positions he's played (first line left wing for example), but that doesn't mean his value is going to be reduced.

Also, I wasn't suggesting that you're anti-Avery, merely that by not supporting your opinion you sounded just like someone who was (most of them not having a clue..). I was surprised.


Last edited by BigE: 04-16-2008 at 08:58 AM.
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Old
04-16-2008, 08:40 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'll tell you this: after looking at their second halfs and playoffs, I make more of an effort keeping Avery than I do Rozsival.
At this point I'm starting to lean towards keeping Mara over Rozsival.

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04-16-2008, 08:41 AM
  #87
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Sean isn't getting $4 million from the Rangers.The Rangers reportedly offered or placed his value at $2.75 million.
Here's where this goes. The Rangers are going to resign Avery at $3M per year for 2 year. There isnt a chance in hades anyone in the NHL is going to pay him $4M per year, and $3M is pushing it frankly. Plus IMO the Rangers dont have to worry that much about him being a flight risk. Due to his baggage and antics he has probably realistically limited the teams that would take him to 1/2 the NHL, maybe even less, so his options are limited. I also think the fact he is making himself a fan favorite in NY plays into this well for him too in terms of contract talks, but that's admittedly circumstantial.

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04-16-2008, 08:57 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Here's where this goes. The Rangers are going to resign Avery at $3M per year for 2 year. There isnt a chance in hades anyone in the NHL is going to pay him $4M per year, and $3M is pushing it frankly. Plus IMO the Rangers dont have to worry that much about him being a flight risk. Due to his baggage and antics he has probably realistically limited the teams that would take him to 1/2 the NHL, maybe even less, so his options are limited. I also think the fact he is making himself a fan favorite in NY plays into this well for him too in terms of contract talks, but that's admittedly circumstantial.
I can definately see that happening, and think that is fair. It is actually the contract I want. 2 yrs at a reasonable price.

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04-16-2008, 09:07 AM
  #89
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Another point that needs to be made is this: people have a tendency to look at what he's asking for and assume that is what will be added to the cap next year - this is not the case.

His current hit is 1.9, if the Rangers sign him to 3.5-4 million range they're only adding, at the most, $2 million. Who can the Rangers add for an extra $2 million that is going to be as effective as Sean Avery? Whether it is a $2 million player or getting a $6 million player instead of a $4 million player - who can they add?

We already know what Sean's contributions are to this team - they're undeniable. Who can the Rangers bring in for that extra $2 million that is going to give us more than Avery will? Who wants to take that risk?

It's a good question that depends on the market, but I'm not sure you can point that player with 100% confidence. Is Hossa the guy? Knowing what we already know about Avery, versus Hossa's storied past...is that the route the Rangers should go?

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04-16-2008, 09:27 AM
  #90
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I really couldn't care less about Avery's growing adversarial relationship with the media (refusal to talk to them and last night I saw him give the finger to a cameraperson on Channel 4 news), but I'm not so sure Sather, Renney and ALL of his teammates feel the same way.

Two months ago I was sure he and Sather would work out a contract unless someone offered him a whole lot more than Sather offered. I'm not so sure now.

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04-16-2008, 10:20 AM
  #91
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Sean is a party boy, he love NYC. I dont think he's leaving.

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04-16-2008, 10:44 AM
  #92
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Do we make the PO's 3 years in a row without Avery? doubtful

last year, most certainly not, and this year, maybe

also, with the possiblilty of Shanny, Straka, and Jagr all or some departing, Avery will be needed.

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04-16-2008, 10:56 AM
  #93
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Here's where this goes. The Rangers are going to resign Avery at $3M per year for 2 year. There isnt a chance in hades anyone in the NHL is going to pay him $4M per year, and $3M is pushing it frankly.
Wrong on both counts. 4-5 years $3-3.5MM. Minimum. There are plenty of teams that would take him in a heartbeat.

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04-16-2008, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Avery raises our teams combat level. We tend to be push overs when he's not in the lineup. He brings a pro-active instead of re-active element to our physical game. Every team needs that pro-active element and most teams have some player or two who fit that bill. When other teams fans say they don't like him--it's more or less proof to us that what he does is working.

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Originally Posted by BigE View Post
Name another player in the league that provides us with the kind of flexibility that Avery does at nearly every position. He can play on a scoring line, checking line, energy line, on the powerplay, on the penalty kill, and he can also be a leader. This is what you're paying for: his flexibility. He may not have the statistical production, but lets face it, neither does Drury. He brings other things that make him deserving of the money. And as I said, he's shown a signficant amount of maturity in his game over the last two years - enough to make me want to gamble on his future

I agree, there are obvious shortcomings, but getting rid of Sean is only going to add to those shortcomings. He isn't the problem here. In fact, he is in large part responsible for the reason why we're even in the playoffs. He is the edge of our team.
Well said by both of you. Agree 100% with every single word in the above posts.



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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'll tell you this: after looking at their second halfs and playoffs, I make more of an effort keeping Avery than I do Rozsival.
As do I. If we let Avery walk it will be one of the biggest mistakes we've made post lockout. I like Rozy but if I had to choose between bringing him back or Avery I am picking Avery.

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04-16-2008, 03:44 PM
  #95
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Here's where this goes. The Rangers are going to resign Avery at $3M per year for 2 year. There isnt a chance in hades anyone in the NHL is going to pay him $4M per year, and $3M is pushing it frankly. Plus IMO the Rangers dont have to worry that much about him being a flight risk. Due to his baggage and antics he has probably realistically limited the teams that would take him to 1/2 the NHL, maybe even less, so his options are limited. I also think the fact he is making himself a fan favorite in NY plays into this well for him too in terms of contract talks, but that's admittedly circumstantial.
You certainly underestimate a guy that is scoring in every playoff game and driving the opposition nuts after only 3 games.

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04-16-2008, 03:55 PM
  #96
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There's a reason why...

Avery currently isn't signed - that should say something. Perhaps Sather feels that Avery is a time bomb that could at any time wear out his welcome. Perhaps there really are players internally who have spoken up. Who knows the scoop, but all we know is he made an effort to sign guys and Avery isn't signed - and he's the one that can walk at the end of the season and I can almost guarantee he tests the UFA waters - he'd be a fool not to with the recent run he's had while playing with Jagr.

As for the Lemieux comparison - I hated Lemieux, but Avery now has 6 more goals than Petr Prucha, let alone Claude Lemieux and his nine 20+ goal seasons, compared to Avery's zero. Let Avery play in this league a bit longer before those comparisons are drawn.

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04-16-2008, 05:56 PM
  #97
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Wrong on both counts. 4-5 years $3-3.5MM. Minimum.
Wouldnt that be wrong on 1 count? I do think he will resign with the Rangers and I did say $3M. I do not believe the Rangers will go long-term with a player like Avery, as he can be a liability in the room. That's the only reason I say 2 years. If he didnt have baggage in terms of personality/conduct etc... I'd agree with your 4-5 opinion. We will know soon enough.

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04-17-2008, 09:43 AM
  #98
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Avery - Bush League

This just in. Avery really does have ties with the Bush Leagues.

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04-17-2008, 09:54 AM
  #99
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You gotta think they'll settle in the 3.5m/year range on a 3 year deal. At this point I'd be ok with that. He brings a lot to the table, and while that's a bit much when only considering point production, it's not a terrible deal considering the overall package.

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04-17-2008, 09:54 AM
  #100
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I dont want him to leave but I dont think hes worth 4 mil yet either.

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