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Old
04-16-2008, 09:40 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
You know, that blueline stud that Murray traded Barnes and Warrener for.
Oh, no - you can mention Mike Wilson until you're blue in the face. It's just that other guy who shall remain nameless that - if you mention his name - you will face a floppy rubber chicken smackdown from Happy Girl for bringing him up. And Mogo might send you one of his patented Lemonade Slushies.

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04-16-2008, 10:04 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
That's absurd. Pavel played with Viktor Kozlov and Ray Whitney. Olli would be doing much better with even them.

Plus, the team made the playoffs in one of the parts of four seasons (or was it five?) Pavel was a Panther. One. And they didn't win a single playoff game.
God I would take both of them right now on Olli's line.

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04-17-2008, 12:38 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
You know, that blueline stud that Murray traded Barnes and Warrener for.
Barnes and Woolley for Chris Wells
Rhett Warrener + pick for Mike Wilson

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04-17-2008, 01:46 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Oh, no - you can mention Mike Wilson until you're blue in the face. It's just that other guy who shall remain nameless that - if you mention his name - you will face a floppy rubber chicken smackdown from Happy Girl for bringing him up. And Mogo might send you one of his patented Lemonade Slushies.
Oh, I was previously lead astray then.

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04-17-2008, 01:51 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
Barnes and Woolley for Chris Wells
Rhett Warrener + pick for Mike Wilson
Ah yes, it was actually two separate brilliant trades. My God, I don't know which one was worse. Dare I say Wilson was actually more useful/contributed more than Wells? Still, Warrener and a 2nd for Wilson was so brutal. I was so pissed that day, I still remember it. We just trade Jovo in the Bure deal and what does Murray do, trades away Warrener for that useless pylon. God hates us.

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04-17-2008, 02:49 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Ah yes, it was actually two separate brilliant trades. My God, I don't know which one was worse. Dare I say Wilson was actually more useful/contributed more than Wells? Still, Warrener and a 2nd for Wilson was so brutal. I was so pissed that day, I still remember it. We just trade Jovo in the Bure deal and what does Murray do, trades away Warrener for that useless pylon. God hates us.
It was actually warrener and a 5th for wilson but thankfully the 5th was worthless and turned into Ryan Miller

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04-17-2008, 07:43 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
At least we made the playoffs with Pavel, who much like Ollie now, had to play with no talent on his line. And the team was at least exciting back then - unlike the boring display we see most nights.

I'll take a pure goal scorer with speed over a soft defenseman any day. The last time I checked it was Bo usually on the ice in those end of games collapses so his defense still needs a lot of improvement. I wish we could make that trade today.

Samuelsson had no value at that time, he developed some scoring finally on the wings later on. Both trade downs were useless.
As Alan points out below, Pavel had talent on his line. But I wont disagree that it was entertaining hockey with him around. And obviously it brought in the casual fan.

I wouldnt call Jay soft...he's not a physical d-man but are guys like Lidstrom or Niedermayer physical? I'm not saying Jay is as good as either but my point is that just cause he doesn't bang the body like some defenders doesn't make him soft. I venture to say he actually has started to use his body more effectively in the last 2 yrs. He still has another 2 yrs before I would call him a truly superstar elite defender, worthy of consideration for a Norris trophy, but he's only 24 so you can't expect miracles overnight (it took Bourque, Niedermayer and Lidstrom quite some time before they won a Norris). You could make that trade today but I guarantee you'd regret it in 2 yrs time.

You had little opportunity to judge what Samuelsson would be able to do. He only played 37 games with FL and that was due to injury. I guess what I'm saying is you never really got to see what you had until it was gone. FL keeps guys like Juraj Kolnik over him and you see where that leads you in the end.
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
That's absurd. Pavel played with Viktor Kozlov and Ray Whitney. Olli would be doing much better with even them.

Plus, the team made the playoffs in one of the parts of four seasons (or was it five?) Pavel was a Panther. One. And they didn't win a single playoff game.
That would be an interesting point. I've read many of the comments here saying that FL needs a scoring winger for Olli's line. Maybe what is really needed is a playmaking winger for Olli's line. I mean, didn't he play some better hockey with Stumpel on his wing? Stumpel is not good by any means but it begs the question that maybe everyone should evaluate what the real need is for FL.

More importantly and to bring this back on topic , now that JM has agreed to stay on as GM he should be looking for that type of winger. Generally that playmaker is usually going to be a center on most lines (see Thornton, Savard, Datsyuk, Gomez, H.Sedin, and even Weiss on your Sunrise Express line) but it can be a winger (Hemsky, PM Bouchard, Kariya). Not sure if any are going to be available this summer so might be pointless to discuss it. Still begs the question as to what JM really sees as needs for your team and whether he can fill those needs with worthwhile players (not hope Stumpel didnt have a career yr and could reproduce that).

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Old
04-17-2008, 08:35 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Staal is better than Horton, player v. player. However, if Horton was given a true playmaking center I could see his goal total increase dramatically and then there would be a debate as to who the better player is.

Edit: Weiss isn't good enough for Horton. Horton has the finishing ability to be a top goal scorer and playing with Weiss I doubt he gets close to 35 goals.
The problem is not that one is better then the other. I think they are actually about the same. Neither is elite like a Bure/Crosby/Ovechkin type player. The diffence I think is the team around them. If Horton was picked by Carolina and we picked Staal, Horton would have been the better player to this point and we would be complaining about Staal. Point is, Staal landed on a good team almost at the top of the mountain and Horton landed on a rebuilding team who was getting ready to start climbing a montain.

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04-17-2008, 08:42 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Ah yes, it was actually two separate brilliant trades. My God, I don't know which one was worse. Dare I say Wilson was actually more useful/contributed more than Wells? Still, Warrener and a 2nd for Wilson was so brutal. I was so pissed that day, I still remember it. We just trade Jovo in the Bure deal and what does Murray do, trades away Warrener for that useless pylon. God hates us.
Wilson wasn't a completely useless defender - but it was the clutch and grab NHL and the 6'5, something like 225lbs. Wilson refused to hit. Played a pretty game instead, but it wasn't what was expected of him.

I'd much rather have had Warrener. But BM was charged with dismantling the team and keeping payroll low so it could be sold. Remember, Huizenga had it on the market since at least 1999, and I'm thinking it was actually 1998.

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04-17-2008, 11:45 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
The problem is not that one is better then the other. I think they are actually about the same. Neither is elite like a Bure/Crosby/Ovechkin type player. The diffence I think is the team around them. If Horton was picked by Carolina and we picked Staal, Horton would have been the better player to this point and we would be complaining about Staal. Point is, Staal landed on a good team almost at the top of the mountain and Horton landed on a rebuilding team who was getting ready to start climbing a montain.
Staal is a big reason that team is good, and horton is a big reason our team is so inconsistent and defensively irresponsible. They are different players, and I like Horton, but he is no Staal.

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04-17-2008, 02:43 PM
  #86
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I'd take a non-diving Horton over a crybaby diving wimp Stall any day of the week.

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04-17-2008, 06:02 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
Barnes and Woolley for Chris Wells
Rhett Warrener + pick for Mike Wilson
Thanks for bringing up that Barnes trade again
I HATE THAT TRADEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Old
04-17-2008, 06:32 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
I'd take a non-diving Horton over a crybaby diving wimp Stall any day of the week.
Really? Over crybaby, diving, wimp....100 point, Stanley Cup winning, 1st line center Staal?

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04-17-2008, 08:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Oh, no - you can mention Mike Wilson until you're blue in the face. It's just that other guy who shall remain nameless that - if you mention his name - you will face a floppy rubber chicken smackdown from Happy Girl for bringing him up. And Mogo might send you one of his patented Lemonade Slushies.
I'm beginning to think that this is no ordinary curse by the cardboard defenseman. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

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04-17-2008, 09:41 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Wilson wasn't a completely useless defender - but it was the clutch and grab NHL and the 6'5, something like 225lbs. Wilson refused to hit. Played a pretty game instead, but it wasn't what was expected of him.

I'd much rather have had Warrener. But BM was charged with dismantling the team and keeping payroll low so it could be sold. Remember, Huizenga had it on the market since at least 1999, and I'm thinking it was actually 1998.
You're right, it's coming back to me now. He played a finesse game but that didn't work back then unless you were really a top offensive defenseman. Still, wasn't he a bit pylon-ish? He certainly wasn't a defensive stalwart. Warrener, on the other hand, was an extremely steady physical defender and rarely made mistakes-the perfect defensive defenseman.

If BM was charged with keeping payroll low already at that time, why did he trade for Bure then?

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04-17-2008, 10:17 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
Staal is a big reason that team is good, and horton is a big reason our team is so inconsistent and defensively irresponsible. They are different players, and I like Horton, but he is no Staal.
You totally missed my point. Yeah he is good now because being drafted to a good team has made him develop quicker!!! Horton hasn't developed fully yet because he has been playing on a team who hasn't really been a winner in years. Like I said my point was if Horton was drafted by Carolina he would be one of their best players right now and if we had drafted Staal we would all still be complaining about why he hasn't fully developed yet. Only players who are elite like Crosby/Ovechkin/etc. don't need a good team to help develop fast.

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04-18-2008, 06:52 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beezer View Post
You totally missed my point. Yeah he is good now because being drafted to a good team has made him develop quicker!!! Horton hasn't developed fully yet because he has been playing on a team who hasn't really been a winner in years. Like I said my point was if Horton was drafted by Carolina he would be one of their best players right now and if we had drafted Staal we would all still be complaining about why he hasn't fully developed yet. Only players who are elite like Crosby/Ovechkin/etc. don't need a good team to help develop fast.
I can agree with this assessment, especially given the fact that Staal benefited from playing on the same team with Rod Brindamour. Once Rod went down for the season, Staal placed the team on his shoulders, and I firmly believe Rod's influence over the years had a lot to do with Staal's maturity and leadership this season.

With the exception of 2 years with an oft-injured Gary Roberts, Nate hasn't had any true mentor as a Panther. Had Roberts not clashed philosophically with Martin, I would've loved to have seen him remain on this team and further Horton's development as a power forward.

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04-18-2008, 08:28 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
If BM was charged with keeping payroll low already at that time, why did he trade for Bure then?
It was a paradigm change - Huizenga wasn't getting offers for the team so he told BM to get a marquis player...but still keep payroll low. We got Pavel, but ditched Jovo and the holdout Weekes and veteran Gagne and only picked up cheap Brad Ference along with Pavel. Payroll still wasn't competitive with the big boys by any stretch, and barely was with the middle-of-the-pack teams. When it was clear that Pavel was too temperamental and the team still wasn't making the playoffs with him, the decision was made to go back to cutting payroll to make the team dirt cheap until it sold. I think we bottomed out at a payroll that was below what is now league minimum.

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04-18-2008, 09:00 AM
  #94
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how I wish the russian rocket was still playing and in a panther uni... he'd help out soo much. PP, Go to guy, shoot outs. ALthough I wonder how he'd play under martin.

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04-18-2008, 09:31 AM
  #95
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how I wish the russian rocket was still playing and in a panther uni... he'd help out soo much. PP, Go to guy, shoot outs. ALthough I wonder how he'd play under martin.
Same way he played under Murray, Sutter, and Keenan - he'd play his awesome but one-way game until he decided he didn't like the coach anymore, then he'd play half-assed until the coach got fired or he got traded.

Face it - Bure was exciting, electrifying...and a locker room cancer. He personally succeeded, but helped cause the team to fail while he was here.

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04-18-2008, 09:40 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
It was a paradigm change - Huizenga wasn't getting offers for the team so he told BM to get a marquis player...but still keep payroll low. We got Pavel, but ditched Jovo and the holdout Weekes and veteran Gagne and only picked up cheap Brad Ference along with Pavel. Payroll still wasn't competitive with the big boys by any stretch, and barely was with the middle-of-the-pack teams. When it was clear that Pavel was too temperamental and the team still wasn't making the playoffs with him, the decision was made to go back to cutting payroll to make the team dirt cheap until it sold. I think we bottomed out at a payroll that was below what is now league minimum.
You forgot that Hedican came back in that deal too. Doesn't look quite as bad when you factor him into the equation. But then again it does look bad cause FL also gave Vancouver a 1st rounder in 2000. Seems like every time FL makes a trade with the Canucks, the Panthers get fleeced huh? Might be a good idea for Martin to keep in mind...don't make any deals with Vancouver.

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04-18-2008, 09:57 AM
  #97
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You forgot that Hedican came back in that deal too. Doesn't look quite as bad when you factor him into the equation. But then again it does look bad cause FL also gave Vancouver a 1st rounder in 2000. Seems like every time FL makes a trade with the Canucks, the Panthers get fleeced huh? Might be a good idea for Martin to keep in mind...don't make any deals with Vancouver.
Well, at least I didn't include Auld in the deal this time like I usually do

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04-18-2008, 11:10 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
Really? Over crybaby, diving, wimp....100 point, Stanley Cup winning, 1st line center Staal?
Absolutely. Is ther anything I should say to make it clearer? How about this:

I DON'T WANT DIVERS ON MY TEAM!


Any more questions?

EDIT: This isn't intended to be rude to you PR, just trying to make it absolutely clear that I don't care how good the player is, they have to play the game with integrity for me to cheer for them.

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04-18-2008, 11:32 AM
  #99
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Same way he played under Murray, Sutter, and Keenan - he'd play his awesome but one-way game until he decided he didn't like the coach anymore, then he'd play half-assed until the coach got fired or he got traded.

Face it - Bure was exciting, electrifying...and a locker room cancer. He personally succeeded, but helped cause the team to fail while he was here.
I guess the failure of the team had nothing to do with the fact that, much like Ollie now, he was all alone on his line playing with third line players at best. I'll take a healthy Bure any day over 95% of the players out there year after year in the league and 100% of the ones we've seen here.

Lets stop blaming the team failures on the very few guys who have produced for this franchise and look at those who don't produce offensively or defensively or anywhere. They are the ones we should be pointing the fingers to.

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04-18-2008, 12:26 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
I guess the failure of the team had nothing to do with the fact that, much like Ollie now, he was all alone on his line playing with third line players at best. I'll take a healthy Bure any day over 95% of the players out there year after year in the league and 100% of the ones we've seen here.

Lets stop blaming the team failures on the very few guys who have produced for this franchise and look at those who don't produce offensively or defensively or anywhere. They are the ones we should be pointing the fingers to.
I'd rather have a guy that puts in 25 goals and plays 100% every game than someone that puts in 35 and only shows up when he feels like it.

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