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Old
04-18-2008, 11:32 AM
  #101
Acadmus
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
I guess the failure of the team had nothing to do with the fact that, much like Ollie now, he was all alone on his line playing with third line players at best. I'll take a healthy Bure any day over 95% of the players out there year after year in the league and 100% of the ones we've seen here.

Lets stop blaming the team failures on the very few guys who have produced for this franchise and look at those who don't produce offensively or defensively or anywhere. They are the ones we should be pointing the fingers to.
Kozlov and Whitney both had over 60 points the year the team made the playoffs. Whitney was a consistent producer. But Bure's presence, if you recall (doesn't seem like you were following the team closely then but I don't know) Whitney was dealt supposedly because Bure didn't like him. Kozlov stuck around even after Bure was gone. The team even signed Bure's brother, Valeri, to make him happy - but that was the year Pavel tried to get Keenan fired, and thus they weren't together long as Pavel got shipped out by Christmas if I recall.

Pavel played with much better players - at least initially. Hell, even by the time he was traded we at least had a decent top line. But ultimately he was not a responsible player, on or off ice, and it hurt the team. He was good for fans in the respect he made games exciting. But he was defensively irresponsible to a fault, and if teams nullified his offense then he was a useless player. And it's not like he couldn't play defense - he got publically challenged to do it by the coach one game and went out and threw a few big hits just to show he could do it (he was smallish but also a lot of upper body strength)...but he just didn't want to.

As I said, he succeeded, the team around him failed. And it failed in no small part due to his presence.

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04-18-2008, 11:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Madhatter73 View Post
I'd rather have a guy that puts in 25 goals and plays 100% every game than someone that puts in 35 and only shows up when he feels like it.
or who puts in 50 goals but when play goes the other way...he just lets it.

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04-18-2008, 12:16 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Kozlov and Whitney both had over 60 points the year the team made the playoffs. Whitney was a consistent producer. But Bure's presence, if you recall (doesn't seem like you were following the team closely then but I don't know) Whitney was dealt supposedly because Bure didn't like him. Kozlov stuck around even after Bure was gone. The team even signed Bure's brother, Valeri, to make him happy - but that was the year Pavel tried to get Keenan fired, and thus they weren't together long as Pavel got shipped out by Christmas if I recall.

Pavel played with much better players - at least initially. Hell, even by the time he was traded we at least had a decent top line. But ultimately he was not a responsible player, on or off ice, and it hurt the team. He was good for fans in the respect he made games exciting. But he was defensively irresponsible to a fault, and if teams nullified his offense then he was a useless player. And it's not like he couldn't play defense - he got publically challenged to do it by the coach one game and went out and threw a few big hits just to show he could do it (he was smallish but also a lot of upper body strength)...but he just didn't want to.

As I said, he succeeded, the team around him failed. And it failed in no small part due to his presence.

When you have a guy like Bure on your team it wouldnt be real smart to expect a two way game from him, but oh how soon we all forget he was on the PK his first season here and was terrific at it. Bure was a pretty special player and to be honest I cant see how he's any more defensively irresponsible than any of the jokers the team has now. I think that wonderful statement "if teams nullified his offense then he was a useless player' can be applied to all snipers. His job was not to throw big hits, his job was to score goals and god do I wish he was around now.

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04-18-2008, 12:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
When you have a guy like Bure on your team it wouldnt be real smart to expect a two way game from him, but oh how soon we all forget he was on the PK his first season here and was terrific at it. Bure was a pretty special player and to be honest I cant see how he's any more defensively irresponsible than any of the jokers the team has now. I think that wonderful statement "if teams nullified his offense then he was a useless player' can be applied to all snipers. His job was not to throw big hits, his job was to score goals and god do I wish he was around now.
I have to agree with you. Goal scorers score goals. I understand that an effort has to be made by all players in all facets of the game, but to give Bure a failing grade because he had an offense-first style about him is unfair and he definitely wasn't a detriment to the team... for his first few seasons, at least.

Anyways... so Martin stays, huh?

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04-18-2008, 01:38 PM
  #105
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I <3 Pavel Bure lol.

He was amazing and he did everything expected, scoring 59 goals for us. How can you fault him for not playing defense? The other teams defense couldn't even become involved offensively because he stretched the zone so far. Imagine him with no 2-line pass rule in play now.

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04-18-2008, 02:38 PM
  #106
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Really? Over crybaby, diving, wimp....100 point, Stanley Cup winning, 1st line center Staal?
He had 100 points once in his career, so far. Calling him "100 point" Eric Staal is misrepresenting him a bit.

Seeing as some of you folks like to harp on about +/-, Horton has him beat there. Staal is a -22 over his NHL career, and Horton is a + 33.

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04-18-2008, 02:39 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by pukboy8 View Post
He had 100 points once in his career, so far. Calling him "100 point" Eric Staal is misrepresenting him a bit.

Seeing as some of you folks like to harp on about +/-, Horton has him beat there. Staal is a -22 over his NHL career, and Horton is a + 33.
Good point. Not to mention Horton has been on far worst teams who have been minus teams every year.

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04-18-2008, 02:54 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Good point. Not to mention Horton has been on far worst teams who have been minus teams every year.

Not to mention fans who value plus minus over a 100 point season and a stanley cup. COME ON.

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04-18-2008, 03:09 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Not to mention fans who value plus minus over a 100 point season and a stanley cup. COME ON.
i rather have the cup and i'd take stall now becuz i think he comes to play every night unlike horton but once horton wakes up or one day he'll leave florida and become the 50 goal scorer he is capable of. i think i'd stick with horton.

i think plus minus is one of the better stats too look at it.. if u score 50 goals and ur a plus 20 it shows u only play one side of the puck. and some guys can only score on the power play. which makes it tht much worse for them

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04-18-2008, 03:23 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by homegrizown View Post
i rather have the cup and i'd take stall now becuz i think he comes to play every night unlike horton but once horton wakes up or one day he'll leave florida and become the 50 goal scorer he is capable of. i think i'd stick with horton.

i think plus minus is one of the better stats too look at it.. if u score 50 goals and ur a plus 20 it shows u only play one side of the puck. and some guys can only score on the power play. which makes it tht much worse for them
Plus minus is the most worthless stat in hockey. If you suck and are on a powerhouse you can be like plus 40 or 50 like lilja was a few years back.

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04-18-2008, 03:35 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Clint View Post
I have to agree with you. Goal scorers score goals. I understand that an effort has to be made by all players in all facets of the game, but to give Bure a failing grade because he had an offense-first style about him is unfair and he definitely wasn't a detriment to the team... for his first few seasons, at least.

Anyways... so Martin stays, huh?
A player who only scores goals and doesn't do anything else is an asset that can help on an elite team that can cover his many shortcomings. Interestingly enough, he never played for one.

A guy who's the last to show up for practice, the first to leave after practice (as well as the first to leave after a game), if he shows for practice at all (I recall one of the coaches making the excuse "I know he works out on his own so it's okay"), who will let his team get overwhelmed as though shorthanded whenever the puck is in the defensive zone because he's not going to move below the blueline, and (and this is key, here) stops playing 100% whenever he takes a disliking to a head coach is not exactly the kind of player that was beneficial to a young, inexperienced team.

That's why this team made the playoffs but didn't win a game his first full season as a Panther (when they still had some talent), and why they missed them the remaining years (when players he reputedly didn't like were moved as "locker room cancers" when, in fact, it was him).

Anyway, I know people like him (I did for a while) and I won't change anyone's mind on it, but neither will mine be changed on it.

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04-18-2008, 03:50 PM
  #112
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I just don't know if I like this move by the Panthers or not. I like it for the consistency but I do question if Martin can truly be effective when he's had the coaching responsibilities removed from him in such a public way. I wish we could've positioned this so that Martin WILLINGLY removed himself as coach so he could focus on his GM duties. Instead we got the should i stay or should I go routine for a week or so. yet another knock on the organization and IMO it does undermine Martin's authority/credibility.

As far as Horton and his lazy ass (LOL Mogo) - to me that is partially the coaches fault. If he's lazy, get him motivated or get him off the team. period. He's a professional athlete - with enough years of experience in the league. He should know better too. It doesn't hellp when our captain admits in the media to not bringing it every night. Once again, that blame falls on the systemic failure of this organization to instill accountability in the players.

Meh I've been wanting to see consistency but right now we're just consistently mediocre and still without playoff experience in this century. Meh.

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04-18-2008, 03:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
Kozlov and Whitney both had over 60 points the year the team made the playoffs. Whitney was a consistent producer. But Bure's presence, if you recall (doesn't seem like you were following the team closely then but I don't know) Whitney was dealt supposedly because Bure didn't like him. Kozlov stuck around even after Bure was gone. The team even signed Bure's brother, Valeri, to make him happy - but that was the year Pavel tried to get Keenan fired, and thus they weren't together long as Pavel got shipped out by Christmas if I recall.

Pavel played with much better players - at least initially. Hell, even by the time he was traded we at least had a decent top line. But ultimately he was not a responsible player, on or off ice, and it hurt the team. He was good for fans in the respect he made games exciting. But he was defensively irresponsible to a fault, and if teams nullified his offense then he was a useless player. And it's not like he couldn't play defense - he got publically challenged to do it by the coach one game and went out and threw a few big hits just to show he could do it (he was smallish but also a lot of upper body strength)...but he just didn't want to.

As I said, he succeeded, the team around him failed. And it failed in no small part due to his presence.
Oh boy, I don't think I have enough time to address all of the misinformation you have in there but I'll try.

I did follow the team and my season tickets were seven rows up from the ice in his corner, and I saw it all.

Was Bure a defensive wizard? no, but a guy that is the top goal scorer in the league doesn't have to be, and I certainly don't want my 60 goals scorer worrying about defense first. Just him being on the ice is a threat because it ties up a player watching him always.

Was he a prima dona? maybe, but NOT a locker room cancer like you keep referring him as in other posts. Isn't that some type of rule on these boards not to degrade posters or even players like that, with that language?

They traded for Valerie, not signed him as a free agent, and they barely played together because one was always hurt.

Pavel was very responsible off the ice and on the ice. I know players that played with him, and while he stuck to himself a lot, and he knew he was the star, he worked harder than anyone in practice and was known for that intensity. If he was in such bad shape, how did he average 30 minutes per game as a forward many nights? He played injured several times, and did everything the team asked him to. All of his injuries were unavoidable and none had anything to do with conditioning.

Kozlov had those points because of Bure. It took him till last year to even get to 50 points, much less the 70 he had with Bure burying everything that maybe kozlov touched at some point.

Whitney was dealt because HE was a primadona and was playing golf repeatedly, which someone who saw him confirmed to me, when he was injured and not to do any physical activity.

He did not get Keenan fired. They were and are still friends and not too long before this season had lunch at Lester's down the street from the BAC. If you were at the meeting with Cohen you would know why he got fired, he explained the whole story.

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04-18-2008, 04:06 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Acadmus View Post
A player who only scores goals and doesn't do anything else is an asset that can help on an elite team that can cover his many shortcomings. Interestingly enough, he never played for one.

A guy who's the last to show up for practice, the first to leave after practice (as well as the first to leave after a game), if he shows for practice at all (I recall one of the coaches making the excuse "I know he works out on his own so it's okay"), who will let his team get overwhelmed as though shorthanded whenever the puck is in the defensive zone because he's not going to move below the blueline, and (and this is key, here) stops playing 100% whenever he takes a disliking to a head coach is not exactly the kind of player that was beneficial to a young, inexperienced team.

That's why this team made the playoffs but didn't win a game his first full season as a Panther (when they still had some talent), and why they missed them the remaining years (when players he reputedly didn't like were moved as "locker room cancers" when, in fact, it was him).

Anyway, I know people like him (I did for a while) and I won't change anyone's mind on it, but neither will mine be changed on it.
Misinformation everyhwhere, read my last response to you. He worked as hard as anyone in practice.

and he did make it to game seven of the stanley cup finals losing by one goal, against the destiny driven rangers, and has a great scoring record in that playoffs as well as others. he led that team in many ways, a known playoff performer

also played in a time much different than crosby or Ovechkin, where defense was much tighter and more physical, and clutching and grabbing was the norm, and two line offsides still existed.

in today's NHL Bure would be an 80 goal scorer consistently

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04-18-2008, 04:47 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Happy Girl View Post
I just don't know if I like this move by the Panthers or not. I like it for the consistency but I do question if Martin can truly be effective when he's had the coaching responsibilities removed from him in such a public way. I wish we could've positioned this so that Martin WILLINGLY removed himself as coach so he could focus on his GM duties. Instead we got the should i stay or should I go routine for a week or so. yet another knock on the organization and IMO it does undermine Martin's authority/credibility.

As far as Horton and his lazy ass (LOL Mogo) - to me that is partially the coaches fault. If he's lazy, get him motivated or get him off the team. period. He's a professional athlete - with enough years of experience in the league. He should know better too. It doesn't hellp when our captain admits in the media to not bringing it every night. Once again, that blame falls on the systemic failure of this organization to instill accountability in the players.

Meh I've been wanting to see consistency but right now we're just consistently mediocre and still without playoff experience in this century. Meh.
The fact that they didnt position it, makes it credible. Maybe it didnt appear right, but the truth is the truth. He asked him to split the positions. Hiring a GM above JM couldnt have been an option. It certainly isnt a slap in the face to ask someone to be the absolute leader of a franchise.

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04-18-2008, 04:57 PM
  #116
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[QUOTE=Acadmus;13736347]A player who only scores goals and doesn't do anything else is an asset that can help on an elite team that can cover his many shortcomings. Interestingly enough, he never played for one.

A guy who's the last to show up for practice, the first to leave after practice (as well as the first to leave after a game)
[QUOTE]

A. did you miss the 94 cup finals???

B. Horton anyone????

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04-18-2008, 11:02 PM
  #117
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It was a paradigm change - Huizenga wasn't getting offers for the team so he told BM to get a marquis player...but still keep payroll low. We got Pavel, but ditched Jovo and the holdout Weekes and veteran Gagne and only picked up cheap Brad Ference along with Pavel. Payroll still wasn't competitive with the big boys by any stretch, and barely was with the middle-of-the-pack teams. When it was clear that Pavel was too temperamental and the team still wasn't making the playoffs with him, the decision was made to go back to cutting payroll to make the team dirt cheap until it sold. I think we bottomed out at a payroll that was below what is now league minimum.
Sounds kosher to me.

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04-19-2008, 01:56 AM
  #118
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Fun-fact. Pavel Bure was an absolute conditioning freak and was incredibly dedicated to working out and becoming as good as he could be. He had a really crazy workout program that I found out about through someone that knows him and it involves some intense working out and effort, lots of sprints and running. Don't say he didn't work hard.

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04-19-2008, 10:49 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Plus minus is the most worthless stat in hockey. If you suck and are on a powerhouse you can be like plus 40 or 50 like lilja was a few years back.
i can agree with u there. but for someone like jokinen i'm sorry the guy can't play defense worth a ***** so for him that stat is actually worth something.

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04-19-2008, 04:04 PM
  #120
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Plus minus is the most worthless stat in hockey. If you suck and are on a powerhouse you can be like plus 40 or 50 like lilja was a few years back.
lilja must be doing something right - he's survived several years on a very good detroit D. players who suck don't last on a very good teams. even if you think they "suck", they must clearly be performing their role well or a good team would not have them.

and, while not perfect, plus minus is FAR from a worthless stat. if it was, why would it continue to tracked and referenced by both coaches and players?

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04-19-2008, 04:38 PM
  #121
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Lilja's highest career +/- was a +18. Not 40 or 50.

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04-19-2008, 04:56 PM
  #122
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Lilja's highest career +/- was a +18. Not 40 or 50.
Plus minus is still the most worthless stat in the world.

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04-19-2008, 04:59 PM
  #123
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Plus minus is still the most worthless stat in the world.
ok, boss.

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04-19-2008, 05:18 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Plus minus is still the most worthless stat in the world.
It's worthless in a vacuum, without taking into account how the rest of the team is doing.

What you look for, or what I look for anyway, when taking into account the +/- stat is the standout indicators. For example, Looking at Jassen Cullimore's relatively high +/- is a good indicator that he was a good shutdown guy on the ice. Same thing for the Sunrise Express, judging by their relatively high +/- indicates when they were on the ice good things happened.

Same thing for Olli's team worst -19. Couple that with his lower than usual point total for the year, we can conclude that he had a subpar season.

However, when we are down by a goal and need someone to put the puck in the net, I'd rather have Olli on the ice than Cullimore. Wouldn't you?

With that being said, I doubt Lilja would have a +18 this year if he were on the Panthers.

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04-19-2008, 05:19 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
ok, boss.
"Cohen's thesis is that hockey fans are being mislead by the current numbers. He calls plus/minus "worthless," because so many players are given a role that emphasizes defense over scoring. He thinks giveaways and takeaways are as much a subjective mess as the nebulous "hits" category. "

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/colum...ski061119.html

I tend to agree with the expert on this one. Especially on a board where panthers fans prefer nathan horton to eric staal

Also lest we forget the hockey immortals that have led the NHL in plus minus like Marek Malik and Michael Rozival.

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