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Jagr and Roenick ....

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02-09-2004, 12:35 AM
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craig1
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Jagr and Roenick ....

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_178581.html

......it is good to see that these two use their repective MBA's. It's good to know that Roenick knows how to solve the problems of a multi-million dollar LLP partnership. The city is distressed, losing money hand over fist.....sure, we'll fork over millions of dollars for a building that barely generates us squat. Jeremy Roenick said it will fix everything!!! I find it funny that this came out after the piece in the Post~Gazette yesterday that said the Pens have been doing ok financially. I just wish athletes would stick to playing the game, and not comment on things they don't know about.


On a side note: I am all for a new arena. I am happy to hear that the state is willing to help. It should not be the city's respnsibility to fund it though. If the arena is going to generate profits, then the Pens should be more than willing to seek financing from an outside source willing to finance long-term. I am in San Diego now...left the paradise we call Pittsburgh. Out here, the Chargers are talking about building a $500 million dollar stadium with NO outside help. The only thing they are asking for is the development rights to the land that Quallcomm stadium now sits. They plan on building the new stadium on an adjacent parking lot (a la Heinz field) and do away with surface lot parking by building hugh garages, and taking advantage of the new trolley system set to open in 2005. All the Chargers want is the development rights....(Get this, want to build a couple thousand condos on the land with first floor retail shops..gorocery/restaraunt/clothing stores/etc)....and the public is up in arms! The development rights to a current parking lot for the stadium is more than the public is willing to give the team! Why should Pittsburgh subsidize its sports teams? If the Penguins develop the land properly, they can profit incredibly.

Out here, they are building 40 story skyscrapers (by the dozen) in the city for housing. That's right....dozens of skyscrapers are currently being built in downtown with the opening of Petco Field for the Padres...all for housing and first floor retail/grocery/etc. They are preselling at $500,000. In the end, an additional 200,000 to 250,000 people are going to be living in downtown on top of the current downtown population. Most of these buildings are nothing more than foundations and partial steel superstructures, yet they are sold out already, with people awaiting move in dates. That's right......thousands and thousands of apartments are being built in the city....in new skyscrapers...that's new development ideas in a region, and millions are being made on each one! If the Pens were innovative, they could do similar project on their land on a much smaller scale. Granted, they would have to be smaller, more basic units to fit the lifestyle and economic circumstances of Pittsburgh, but a profit could be made nonetheless. All it takes is imagination, a well thought out business plan, and a financial backer.....there are tons of real estate backers who are looking for well thought out development plans to take part in!

This rant is in response to Roenick's insinuations that the Pens need help from the city for a new arena. I am glad he is concerned, but I am tired of hearing about subsidies that do nothing for the city. If the city wants to give out subsidies, give tax breaks to relocate Fortune 500 offices there! Bring in people with high disposable incomes who can spend money, thereby creating excess tax revenue as that new money recirculates through the regions economy! Subsidizing a new arena with no other realistic yet inventive overall development plan will garner the city nothing. They gave them out for the 2 on the North side, allowing for promises and wonders to come. Mimimal development has occurred. Why should the Pirates and Steelers care at this point? They already have their cash from the City and State. It's a distressed cityas it is, with an overabundance of local government, and worthless subsidized programs on its books. It can't take on another!


Last edited by craig1: 02-09-2004 at 12:46 AM.
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02-09-2004, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_178581.html

......it is good to see that these two use their repective MBA's. It's good to know that Roenick knows how to solve the problems of a multi-million dollar LLP partnership. The city is distressed, losing money hand over fist.....sure, we'll fork over millions of dollars for a building that barely generates us squat. Jeremy Roenick said it will fix everything!!! I find it funny that this came out after the piece in the Post~Gazette yesterday that said the Pens have been doing ok financially. I just wish athletes would stick to playing the game, and not comment on things they don't know about.


On a side note: I am all for a new arena. I am happy to hear that the state is willing to help. It should not be the city's respnsibility to fund it though. If the arena is going to generate profits, then the Pens should be more than willing to seek financing from an outside source willing to finance long-term. I am in San Diego now...left the paradise we call Pittsburgh. Out here, the Chargers are talking about building a $500 million dollar stadium with NO outside help. The only thing they are asking for is the development rights to the land that Quallcomm stadium now sits. They plan on building the new stadium on an adjacent parking lot (a la Heinz field) and do away with surface lot parking by building hugh garages, and taking advantage of the new trolley system set to open in 2005. All the Chargers want is the development rights....(Get this, want to build a couple thousand condos on the land with first floor retail shops..gorocery/restaraunt/clothing stores/etc)....and the public is up in arms! The development rights to a current parking lot for the stadium is more than the public is willing to give the team! Why should Pittsburgh subsidize its sports teams? If the Penguins develop the land properly, they can profit incredibly.

Out here, they are building 40 story skyscrapers (by the dozen) in the city for housing. That's right....dozens of skyscrapers are currently being built in downtown with the opening of Petco Field for the Padres...all for housing and first floor retail/grocery/etc. They are preselling at $500,000. In the end, an additional 200,000 to 250,000 people are going to be living in downtown on top of the current downtown population. Most of these buildings are nothing more than foundations and partial steel superstructures, yet they are sold out already, with people awaiting move in dates. That's right......thousands and thousands of apartments are being built in the city....in new skyscrapers...that's new development ideas in a region, and millions are being made on each one! If the Pens were innovative, they could do similar project on their land on a much smaller scale. Granted, they would have to be smaller, more basic units to fit the lifestyle and economic circumstances of Pittsburgh, but a profit could be made nonetheless. All it takes is imagination, a well thought out business plan, and a financial backer.....there are tons of real estate backers who are looking for well thought out development plans to take part in!

This rant is in response to Roenick's insinuations that the Pens need help from the city for a new arena. I am glad he is concerned, but I am tired of hearing about subsidies that do nothing for the city. If the city wants to give out subsidies, give tax breaks to relocate Fortune 500 offices there! Bring in people with high disposable incomes who can spend money, thereby creating excess tax revenue as that new money recirculates through the regions economy! Subsidizing a new arena with no other realistic yet inventive overall development plan will garner the city nothing. They gave them out for the 2 on the North side, allowing for promises and wonders to come. Mimimal development has occurred. Why should the Pirates and Steelers care at this point? They already have their cash from the City and State. It's a distressed cityas it is, with an overabundance of local government, and worthless subsidized programs on its books. It can't take on another!

Very good post.

In Roenicks defense however, I feel his staements were somewhat accurate. He didnt say it would SOLVE any problems, but that a new building would HELP. I think thats both a fair and accurate statement.

I really like your idea's about bringing more money inot the city of Pittsburgh. I haven't thought about that for a looong time and I think it was a very intriguing idea. Obviously alot hader said than done but kudos for your post on the subject!

California is growing like crazy. I now own a real estate business with my dad and we have way more business than we can handle.I too, moved here from Pittsburgh a year ago. How long ago did you leave?


Last edited by stardog: 02-09-2004 at 03:12 AM.
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02-09-2004, 12:08 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
I just wish athletes would stick to playing the game, and not comment on things they don't know about.
I guess if we are commenting on it I have no problem with the players commenting on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
On a side note: I am all for a new arena. I am happy to hear that the state is willing to help. It should not be the city's respnsibility to fund it though. If the arena is going to generate profits, then the Pens should be more than willing to seek financing from an outside source willing to finance long-term.
It most certaintly should be up to the city to help. Its is a common misconception that this is a "hockey arena". Thats simply not true. A new arena would generate revenue not only for the Penguins, but for the city also. Concerts, tractor pulls, the circus, etc. All of these have nothing to do with the Pens.

The city also needs to think about the investment. How would it benefit the city if the Pens get no new arena and move? Does anyone really think the Pens need Pittsburgh more then Pittsburgh needs the Pens? Does the city really need to lose more jobs and enertainment? This is not a stadium that has limited uses, this is an arena that will be used by the city as well as the Pens. Even if the Pens move the city still needs a new arena.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
I am in San Diego now...left the paradise we call Pittsburgh. Out here, the Chargers are talking about building a $500 million dollar stadium with NO outside help. The only thing they are asking for is the development rights to the land that Quallcomm stadium now sits. They plan on building the new stadium on an adjacent parking lot (a la Heinz field) and do away with surface lot parking by building hugh garages, and taking advantage of the new trolley system set to open in 2005. All the Chargers want is the development rights....(Get this, want to build a couple thousand condos on the land with first floor retail shops..gorocery/restaraunt/clothing stores/etc)....and the public is up in arms! The development rights to a current parking lot for the stadium is more than the public is willing to give the team! Why should Pittsburgh subsidize its sports teams? If the Penguins develop the land properly, they can profit incredibly.
There is a huge difference beween an NFL franchice building a $500 million and an NHL franchise trying to build its own arena.

Why should Pittsburgh subsidize its sporsts teams?

Oh I dont know, maybe because they generate jobs, profit from taxes, parking, and draw people into the city who wouldnt normally be there. Again who benefits from the relationship more the city or the team? The Pens would be better of in quite a few other cities. The Pens are in the hockey business, why should they build shops, condos, and other such things to generate more revenue for the city, while the city refuses to help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
Out here, they are building 40 story skyscrapers (by the dozen) in the city for housing. That's right....dozens of skyscrapers are currently being built in downtown with the opening of Petco Field for the Padres...all for housing and first floor retail/grocery/etc. They are preselling at $500,000. In the end, an additional 200,000 to 250,000 people are going to be living in downtown on top of the current downtown population. Most of these buildings are nothing more than foundations and partial steel superstructures, yet they are sold out already, with people awaiting move in dates. That's right......thousands and thousands of apartments are being built in the city....in new skyscrapers...that's new development ideas in a region, and millions are being made on each one! If the Pens were innovative, they could do similar project on their land on a much smaller scale. Granted, they would have to be smaller, more basic units to fit the lifestyle and economic circumstances of Pittsburgh, but a profit could be made nonetheless. All it takes is imagination, a well thought out business plan, and a financial backer.....there are tons of real estate backers who are looking for well thought out development plans to take part in!
How long has it been since youve been in Pittsburgh?

One thing I cannot understand is how you expect the Pens to fund such a project? This team is lucky to make payroll yet they are supposed to fund the building of housing and shopping?

Why is it the city should not help fund an arena that would, in part, benefit them, but the Pens are supposed to build housing and shopping for the city?

You are right about one thing all of this would take imagination. A very scary imagination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig1
This rant is in response to Roenick's insinuations that the Pens need help from the city for a new arena. I am glad he is concerned, but I am tired of hearing about subsidies that do nothing for the city. If the city wants to give out subsidies, give tax breaks to relocate Fortune 500 offices there! Bring in people with high disposable incomes who can spend money, thereby creating excess tax revenue as that new money recirculates through the regions economy! Subsidizing a new arena with no other realistic yet inventive overall development plan will garner the city nothing. They gave them out for the 2 on the North side, allowing for promises and wonders to come. Mimimal development has occurred. Why should the Pirates and Steelers care at this point? They already have their cash from the City and State. It's a distressed cityas it is, with an overabundance of local government, and worthless subsidized programs on its books. It can't take on another!
Again a new arena is needed whether the Pens stay or not. Maybe the city should start investing in all these great money making ventures you have proposed. I still dont see how it should be up to the Pens if the city is not willing to do anything. Pittsburgh needs the Pens more then they need Pittsburgh. If the city wont help they should go to a city that will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stardog
Very good post.
Very bad post.

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02-09-2004, 02:18 PM
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Ti answer both Stardog and Iagreewithidiots...I have been in San Diego since August 2003.

I think it is great to express your opinion.....but Roenick is a public figure and thus, must therefore be more responsible in what he is saying to the masses. If he wants to express his opinion, fine. But given the way he is expressing it through mass media outlets, he should either be more informed on the aspects of the situation, or refrain from comment. Making comments in a discussion forum where opinions can be discussed from all sides is a little different than a supposed "role model" preaching to his choir. Hey, I would love to discuss the situation with anyone. agree or disagree.

"originally posted by iagreewithidiots:
Why should Pittsburgh subsidize its sporsts teams?

Oh I dont know, maybe because they generate jobs, profit from taxes, parking, and draw people into the city who wouldnt normally be there. Again who benefits from the relationship more the city or the team? The Pens would be better of in quite a few other cities. The Pens are in the hockey business, why should they build shops, condos, and other such things to generate more revenue for the city, while the city refuses to help?"

What type of jobs do they generate? Is it really worth spending millions in grants for the tax revenues that concession workers bring in? I am not putting down the career of thse people, I am just stating from a business perspective that the tax on lower income jobs does not make up the cost of an arena. Players salaries??? None live in the city of Pittsburgh! They live in the suburbs. The city of Pittsburgh is divided into 32 municipalities (I beleive it is 32..possibly 31) for governing purposes. Residents of outlying municipalities pay the local municipalities their taxes. The local municipalities are a prime example of government waste! If the region was consolidated into the city of Pitssburgh like almost every major nation in the USA, a vast majority of budgeting problems would be solved for the city. But having your own little fifedom in Bethel Park, West Mifflin, wherever, where nepotism can run wild is way too important I guess.
I now of very few businesses today with Net values around $100 million or more who are in one business, and one business only. It is called investment. Example: Go out to Moon someday, the old way to the airport....You will see an office development called Cherrington, next to embassy suites. That was built by Westinghouse. Try to think of it in terms of portfolio diversification if you will. You eliminate part of your risk factor by investing in projects whose risk offsets the risk of your project, being left with only market risk...similar principle.

"originally posted by iagreewithidiots:
How long has it been since youve been in Pittsburgh?

One thing I cannot understand is how you expect the Pens to fund such a project? This team is lucky to make payroll yet they are supposed to fund the building of housing and shopping?

Why is it the city should not help fund an arena that would, in part, benefit them, but the Pens are supposed to build housing and shopping for the city?

You are right about one thing all of this would take imagination. A very scary imagination."


As I said, I left in August. I never said the Pens would have to fund it. I said: "a well thought out business plan, and a financial backer.....there are tons of real estate backers who are looking for well thought out development plans to take part in!" There are professional who do this kind of thing. Even the Mayor of Pittsburgh hired firms to do this for Pittsburgh (one from Chicago, the next from Philly, now spun off into new firm). They help plan and finance the project. Most would love to have a new arena to develop around, since it gives them much more creaive freedom than they normally would have.
I also said:"they could do similar project on their land on a much smaller scale. Granted, they would have to be smaller, more basic units to fit the lifestyle and economic circumstances of Pittsburgh, but a profit could be made nonetheless."
I never stated that it would be possible or fiscally responsible for the Pens to do a project of similar size. I was stating that it would be possible to develop some form of residential with first floor retail/grocery mixed in. If this was the case, I am sure the city would gladly donate all the infrastructure improvements, or something on that level to the overall project given that a new tax base has been brought in. The city of Pittsburgh is dying. It has no tax base to help sustain its spending levels. Look at the census data over the past 20 years. There has been an exponentially increaseing exodus of young professionals from the region. There is now no reason to stay (outside family....thankfully, mine saw this too and encouraged me to get out before it was too late), and nothing is being done to fix this problem for the near future. You cannot support and fund prestige businesses like sports etc, if you do not have the tax base to either recoup the investment, or use the investment to lure a new tax base in. No matter what, a new arena should only be funded by the city if it benefits or at least bears no long term loss to Pittsburgh. I love the Pens and would never want to see them leave. But from the cities perspective, if they did leave, it wouldn't exactly cause any more of a mass exodus than there already is. It is already the second oldest county in the US (behind Dade...that's right...behind the snowbirds!, as of the 2000 census I beleive). And has only gotten older since. Again, this is not a knock on seniors, but they generate minimal revenue, with the exception of healthcare, which most hospitals have tax abatements!....and the high-salaried doctors....live in the suburbs and are not subjected to city tax!

I agree that the Pens need a new arena. I honestly hope they are able to build one. But as to the city needing one whether they leave or not? I doubt that one will be built just for tractor pulls and concerts. Whlie a new one would be nice for those events, it wouldn't make any sense for the city......speaking of which, I heard last night that a new arena was proposed for San Diego!

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02-09-2004, 10:25 PM
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02-10-2004, 04:27 PM
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I express concern for any struggling franchise that exists in a genuine hockey city.

Pittsburgh is a genuine hockey city.

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02-11-2004, 03:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots



Very bad post.
Why is it a bad post? It is well thought out and has some creative processes involved.

One thing we can agree on is that the city needs a new arena big time. Here is a story related to this exact topic from the PG.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04042/271714.stm

The city simply cannot afford to be the main financer in a venture for a new arena. While it is true that the city will benefit from arena use, the Pens will be the primary tenant and (correct me if i am wrong) would also be the landlord and primary beneficier for a new arena.I think the 60 odd million from the RAD tax is more than an adequate sum given the cities financial plight.

However I am tired of the grandstanding by Oronato concerning said tax. This is money that is already budgeted in (once again,correct me if i am wrong) and he has no authority to withhold this money.


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02-11-2004, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by stardog
Why is it a bad post? It is well thought out and has some creative processes involved.
The Pens have already said they are not in the real estate business.

Its not really all that well thought out, well intentioned yes. I just dont see how anyone can say the city has no obligation to help out at all. If it benefits them they have an obligation to themselves to invest. Or at least fight for the Pens. They seem so indifferent to whether the Pens stay or go.

Then to say the Pens should start building apartments and shops? How? With what money? I dont care how small a scale you want to do it on, the Pens have a hard enough time making payroll. So they should go totally bankrupt building apartments and shops in a city nobody wants to be in? Let the city do it.

Why should the Pens even care? They can go to Winnipeg, not spend one dime of their own money on a new arena, and sell out tons of games. Why should they have to spend millions to stay in Pittsburgh?

The city needs to do things it would never dream of. Look at all the waterfront property the have. What is built there? Broken down buildings, parking lots, nothing of any real interest. If you want to come up with an impossible dream tell me how the city should be fighting tooth and nail to have gambling. River boat gambling, they could have a Pittsburgh boardwalk, waterfront hotels. But no it will be business as usual, just dying old farts telling us if the Pens want a new arena they can build it themselves, I havent been to a concert in 75 years what do i care we dont need a new arena.

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02-11-2004, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
The Pens have already said they are not in the real estate business.

Its not really all that well thought out, well intentioned yes. I just dont see how anyone can say the city has no obligation to help out at all. If it benefits them they have an obligation to themselves to invest. Or at least fight for the Pens. They seem so indifferent to whether the Pens stay or go.
The city has ZERO obligation to subsidize any form of Corporate entity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Then to say the Pens should start building apartments and shops? How? With what money? I dont care how small a scale you want to do it on, the Pens have a hard enough time making payroll. So they should go totally bankrupt building apartments and shops in a city nobody wants to be in? Let the city do it.
Pittsburgh is a dying city. It's economy and tax base are shrinking. That does not mean that it will be totally devoid of all life. I am just stating an option to secure long term profits. I took part in a study of the Real Estate situation in the city. One of the conclusions I drew was that the city would be unable to sustain large scale luxury apartments, but would be able to sustain smaller mid-level apartments/condos if the supporting infrastructure was included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Why should the Pens even care? They can go to Winnipeg, not spend one dime of their own money on a new arena, and sell out tons of games. Why should they have to spend millions to stay in Pittsburgh?
Because in Winnipeg, like in the statement above, their best hope would be to break even. This is a business in a capitalistic economy. Maximizing the wealth of its shareholders whether it is a public corporation or an LLP is still its #1 priority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
The city needs to do things it would never dream of. Look at all the waterfront property the have. What is built there? Broken down buildings, parking lots, nothing of any real interest. If you want to come up with an impossible dream tell me how the city should be fighting tooth and nail to have gambling. River boat gambling, they could have a Pittsburgh boardwalk, waterfront hotels. But no it will be business as usual, just dying old farts telling us if the Pens want a new arena they can build it themselves, I havent been to a concert in 75 years what do i care we dont need a new arena.
It is more than just the population that is a factor in these issues. While it is a huge porrtion of the problem, the other is, like I stated above, the structure of government also makes it difficult. The 30-some odd municipalities that make up the city make it impossible to get anything done. I have taked to quite a few commercial developers who have had great ideas that could not be done because different municipalities fought over tax issues, traffic flows, etc. Until the little fifedoms are all brought under the control of the city, the city will continue to forego potential millions in net revenue each year. There would be incredible savings through efficiencies. Lessening the # of redundant government positions, being able to consolidate management of road crews, library administrations, etc. This would also do away with the bickering between municipalities over development. I remember a specific situation, name of developer will go unnamed, where developer wanted to build complex near South Hills Village. It would have actually been in 3 municipalites, since the proposed development was on land where they met. Due to the continual bickering over tax income, the developer decided to forego the idea and built in another city.


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02-11-2004, 12:31 PM
  #10
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Look craig1 you made a good effort but it was a bad idea.

The city needs to get itself in order. If the Pens went to Winnipeg and broke even its better then they are doing here. If they stay under your plan and blow millions on any kind of shops or housing they will go bankrupt for sure.

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02-11-2004, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iagreewithidiots
Look craig1 you made a good effort but it was a bad idea.

The city needs to get itself in order. If the Pens went to Winnipeg and broke even its better then they are doing here. If they stay under your plan and blow millions on any kind of shops or housing they will go bankrupt for sure.
The city needs to get itself in order...That is the whole point of my post!!!! The city cannot afford to subsidize Arenas for private businesses. My post is stating that if the Pens want an arena, they are going to have to finnace it themselves (with the alotted money from PA to help). If they choose to do this, they will need to capitalize on all possible revenue. This was just a suggestion showing what other cities are doing. It is not an end all to what could be. For all I care, they could build parking garages. As long as the Pens stay that's all that matters. This was an example of what most forward looking cities want to do. Not some 5th and Forbes retail bonanza that generates barely above zero tax revenue from payroll or sales! If the Pens want an arena, great! But they will have to seek additional revenue sources to maximize profit potential in order to HEDGE themselves against the downside risk of owning and operating an arena! This is basis Financial Management. Once again, take a portfolio model into account and apply the principles to the Pens. Oh yeah, and building an arena..coming up with designs for it.....which it was the Pens whom initially came up with the arena design which included apartments. Yes, I have been commenting on an idea originally put forth by the Pens. My twist is that I beleive the funding for the entire project should be secured by the Pens from private investors. The Pens plan was to secure private investors for the apartments and only part of the arena if I am not mistaken.....let's see now...the arena design was theirs....the apartments were their own idea! That puts them in the Real Estate business!

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