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Preventing the violence...

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Old
04-22-2008, 10:00 AM
  #1
Vards
 
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Preventing the violence...

I know there are already a few threads about this stuff, but I want this one to be different...

I want to start a discussion, on the following question:

What can the average non-violent, happy-go-lucky Habs fan to in the future to help prevent the violence? There are so many more good guys than bad guys that you'd think there has to be a way to work together (with the poliece) to keep the celebrations happy.

Please, try to keep this on topic...

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04-22-2008, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vards View Post
I know there are already a few threads about this stuff, but I want this one to be different...

I want to start a discussion, on the following question:

What can the average non-violent, happy-go-lucky Habs fan to in the future to help prevent the violence? There are so many more good guys than bad guys that you'd think there has to be a way to work together (with the poliece) to keep the celebrations happy.

Please, try to keep this on topic...

stop carrying torches to the games!

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04-22-2008, 10:06 AM
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Travis Moen
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Run riot against the trouble-makers

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04-22-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigcortex View Post
Run riot against the trouble-makers
Correct.

Violence is the only way to prevent violence.

(Darz logic)

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04-22-2008, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mayoradamwest View Post
stop carrying torches to the games!
Yeah, great contribution to the discussion.

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04-22-2008, 10:12 AM
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Doctor House
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I blame the Police on this one- they know of these anarchist types and do nothing about them. Every time Montreal hosts a high level conference they come out.

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04-22-2008, 10:14 AM
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22SteveBegin22
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Tell Price to let in one or two softies once the score gets out of hand. It will calm everyone down and we'll still get the win.

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Old
04-22-2008, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Doctor House View Post
I blame the Police on this one- they know of these anarchist types and do nothing about them. Every time Montreal hosts a high level conference they come out.
Hummmm.. while that is a good point, I'm not really asking who we blame... maybe there is no easy answer to my question...

It's just sad, I know there are tons of people out there who, like me, love the city (even though I am Ontarian, I am moving there shortly), love the team, and when this happens (even if it's not "fans" per. say) it dampens what should be a great happy celebratry feeling.

Edit: Maybe we just need to clinch series' on the road...

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04-22-2008, 10:37 AM
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Doctor House
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Originally Posted by Vards View Post
Hummmm.. while that is a good point, I'm not really asking who we blame... maybe there is no easy answer to my question...
These people are professionals and come prepared to counter the riot cops - I saw them once downtown a couple years ago - no way your typical Habs fan can stop them.

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04-22-2008, 10:38 AM
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Man, that is some scary stuff... I guess all you can do is be nice to the cops and help them in any way you can (sending in pictures and videos).

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04-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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HabsVision
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That is exactly what I was thinking before going to bed yesterday : Is there anything we can do, together as peaceful hardcore Habs fans, to help prevent violence or riots? Is there anything I could do indivually? I remember seeing one citizen yesterday who tried to intervene when punks tried to put a police car on fire. Kudos to the man, he had the biggest balls in the world, but HE WAS ALONE!!! He had no support and probably got beaten by punks afterwards.... If at least SOME of the bystanders would've helped him...

The problem with the crowd late after the game was that eventually the peaceful fans returned home while leaving only opportunistic anarchists and stupid cowards in the streets.

If half of the 20000 Habs fans that attended the game had stayed a little longer in the streets and had the guts to intervene as a group everytime sh** disturbers tried something.... MAYBE that could help de-fuse the violence before it becomes out of control.

What I propose is to create some sort of "Habs Peacekeepers units" that would act as crowd control commandos... exactly the opposite of what the anarchists do when they try to make the crowd go crazy violent...

Of course this is all hypothetical and I'm fully aware that it could be very dangerous.... but ONLY if the bad guys turn out outnumbering us...

It may not be a very good idea but... I don't know.... I try to think of something because I'm really sad and ashamed this morning of what my city looks like.... And for ch...st sake, I'm gonna have to pay with MY taxdollars to replace these police cars!! I want to be that courageous man with the light blue **** who tried to convince the punks to stop smashing the police car yesterday... he must've been inspired by Saku Koivu or something....

Tell me what you all think, because I wish there was something we could do to help reduce the collateral damages of our next Stanley Cup

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04-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor House View Post
These people are professionals and come prepared to counter the riot cops - I saw them once downtown a couple years ago - no way your typical Habs fan can stop them.
These guys aren't professionals , they are your typical 20 years old gang member or homeless punk looking for an opportunity to get an adrenaline rush.

And yes the typical Habs fan can stop them by joining together and kicking their *****. Of course it's not a sure proof solution and may add oil to the fire but at least it would keep them busy for a while and let some time to the cops to mobilize and lock the sector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsvision
That is exactly what I was thinking before going to bed yesterday : Is there anything we can do, together as peaceful hardcore Habs fans, to help prevent violence or riots? Is there anything I could do indivually? I remember seeing one citizen yesterday who tried to intervene when punks tried to put a police car on fire. Kudos to the man, he had the biggest balls in the world, but HE WAS ALONE!!! He had no support and probably got beaten by punks afterwards.... If at least SOME of the bystanders would've helped him...
That's the problem

Most people won't do **** because they are either scared or are just enjoying the "show". Most punks are complete wimps and will just go away if they are outnumbered and backed in a corner.


Last edited by Bronn: 04-22-2008 at 10:51 AM.
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Old
04-22-2008, 10:51 AM
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Policemen are fans just like the rest of us. What a shame. I'm ashamed of these guys (destructors). They aren't real fans

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04-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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Guy Germaine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor House View Post
These people are professionals and come prepared to counter the riot cops - I saw them once downtown a couple years ago - no way your typical Habs fan can stop them.
hahah....please. Squee-gee kids with scarves and ski goggles is hardly professional.

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04-22-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor House View Post
I blame the Police on this one- they know of these anarchist types and do nothing about them. Every time Montreal hosts a high level conference they come out.
I'm sorry, but this is Guerilla type of warfare. Strike when the cops are weak, there are lots of cover available i.e. crowds and fade away. They didn't target any rioters and used the fact that they were dressed normally to have the crowd on their side. Had they been dressed in regular "anarchist uniforms" of black jumpsuits the crowd could have spotted them as troublemakers and have stopped them.

The fact of the matter is that even if the police knows what is being planned, they can't do anything until it is actually done, and they can't actually monitor the anarchist groups unless there is probably cause, after all anarchism even though is prone to violence is a valid political belief protected by the bill or rights.

The police unfortunately are a largely reactive force, kinda like the fire department. 99% of the time police can't prevent crimes, only react to them and punish the offenders. Police presence is a deterrent to large numbers, but organized groups who have violence and destructions as their ends are notoriously difficult to stop.

Personally I'd rather have my rights protected and see police vehicles burn, than have pretty cop cars all over the streets and absolutely no rights.

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04-22-2008, 11:06 AM
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I'm willing to bet that the majority (90% +) weren't even at the game, not even a Habs fan and were only looking for a reason to cause the havoc.

Either way ... it's going to be our tax dollars at work.

a) Prosecuting these punks
b) Increased riot police and patrols around the BC on game night (overtime for a cop is expensive)
c) Replacing all the cop cars and damage to public property

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04-22-2008, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by mother_pucker View Post
hahah....please. Squee-gee kids with scarves and ski goggles is hardly professional.
They're not professionals...but what they are is organised, and a group of five year olds can be dangerous if organized properly and employed in the right circumstances. You can list hundreds of organisations around the world who have used similar tactics effectively.

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04-22-2008, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Vards View Post
Yeah, great contribution to the discussion.
did you really need a ?

The Sens logo should suffice. In reality I didn't see too many torch wielding fans in the crowd, though lots of pitchforks. Though I might have been watching farm report.

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04-22-2008, 11:18 AM
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Bronn
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Originally Posted by Moester View Post
They're not professionals...but what they are is organised, and a group of five year olds can be dangerous if organized properly and employed in the right circumstances.
That's right

Quote:
Cops charge 3-year-old 'rioter'

Patna, India - Police in India have charged a three-year-old boy for allegedly leading a group of rioters and firing at security personnel, the toddler's uncle said on Thursday..........CONTINUED
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/N...134227,00.html

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Old
04-22-2008, 11:24 AM
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I did exactly that during the riots in 93: me and a friend (Montreal native) were celebrating the victory with the crowd downtown. Walked down St. Catherine all the way from St. Laurant to the Forum. Everything peaceful until we came to the Forum where suddenly people started to riot. We ended up right in the middle of everything. People started looting shops across from the Forum and me and my friend tried to stop them. I guess if we hadn't been that drunk we wouldn't have dared ... but we were pretty drunk. Anyway, nobody cared about what we tried to do. Policemen in riot gear were standing by, dozens of them only 100 mtrs away. I approached them, pointed out towards certain people who I had seen carry all kinds of stuff away from the shops. The policemen didn't move. I got angry because of that until they threatened to arrest me! Then I went back to try to stop the looters personally when suddenly one of them pulled something out of his jacket. My friend just screamed that it was a gun and we ran as fast as we could. I still don't know if it was a gun or not but it scared the sh... out of me.
So you better be careful thinking about self justice.
Had a great night anyway ... as far as I remember after all those beers...

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04-22-2008, 11:25 AM
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The best thing we can do, unfortunately, is to get away from downtown as fast as possible after a win. The only reason these guys can do all this mess is only because they are surrounded by a massive crowd. If you want to celebrate, just go with your friends in a bar or at home, anywhere but in the streets.

For those who carry cell phones and cameras you can film the troublemakers but you should be careful and subtile.

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04-22-2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang5ohhh View Post
I'm willing to bet that the majority (90% +) weren't even at the game, not even a Habs fan and were only looking for a reason to cause the havoc.

Either way ... it's going to be our tax dollars at work.

a) Prosecuting these punks
b) Increased riot police and patrols around the BC on game night (overtime for a cop is expensive)
c) Replacing all the cop cars and damage to public property
A pretty accurate crime figure in these cases is that less than a quarter of a percent of the spectators commit violence at a sporting event in North America, the great majority of instigators come from outside sources and tend to represent less than 1% of those in attendance. The reaction of the police is what tends to tip the balance from disturbance to riot.

In thise case, the police reacted well, localized the disturbance, limited the use of force and collateral damage.

I read one poster talking about how he got pepper sprayed because he was near the break-in at foot locker and got splash back when the police was spraying someone who was breaking into the store. I'm sorry, but the police aren't perfect and if you're foolish enough to hang out at a crime scene you have to be willing to deal with the consequences. It would be like someone complaining that they got hurt by the firemen putting out a fire.

People might not like cops, but the fact of the matter is that most of them are there to make a difference and to help people. People always wonder where the police are when they're needed and then complain when they do something. I guess that you just can't win sometimes.

I wouldn't worry too much about our tax dollars, most of them won't be prosecuted, they'll plead out and/or will be offered a deal to get the organisers. The police cars are ensured as are the vendors. We will still pay a price, but it won't be astronomical.

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04-22-2008, 11:32 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vards View Post
I know there are already a few threads about this stuff, but I want this one to be different...

I want to start a discussion, on the following question:

What can the average non-violent, happy-go-lucky Habs fan to in the future to help prevent the violence? There are so many more good guys than bad guys that you'd think there has to be a way to work together (with the poliece) to keep the celebrations happy.

Please, try to keep this on topic...
Ban the singing of "Ole! Ole!" its irritating me now, must be irritating the rioters as well.

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04-22-2008, 11:35 AM
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loudi94
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People aren't afraid of the police. If that changed there would be less of a problem. How we accomplish that is up to the imagination.

If you want to prove that fans aren't doing it, splash Habs logos all over the vehicles. Maybe the mayor will now see it's not a bad idea and cost effective.

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04-22-2008, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by loudi94 View Post
People aren't afraid of the police. If that changed there would be less of a problem. How we accomplish that is up to the imagination.

.
siple you walk up to the huge crowd of rioters, pull out your standard issue handgun, and blow someones head off...then the crowd would think "hey I dont want my head blown off, i better stop this tomfoolery"

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