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Trade Deadline Decisions for Kevin Lowe

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Old
02-10-2004, 07:17 PM
  #76
hockeyaddict101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matts
I call them WAC's, as in Won A Cup.

That's how Lowe get his job, it's why MacT is here and it's why Huddy and Simpson we're hired.
Does that mean that Moores more qualified.

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02-10-2004, 07:19 PM
  #77
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One of the things we're dancing around in this thread but haven't really written is that Lowe seems to want it both ways.

He wants the fanbase to blindly follow the make the playoffs mantra, but is unwilling to trade anything for immediate help.

I'm not ripping him for it, that's what I want him to do (although ideally he gets some balance on this roster before the end of the season, as in the original post in this thread).

What I don't like is the impact it's having on the team. The coach looks like he's nearer a stroke everyday, the pp men are getting sawdust out of sticks that aren't wood, and the goalies are trying to keep their heads above water in a pressure cooker.

And I'm starting to feel sorry for MacTavish. And believe me, that takes alot!


Last edited by Lowetide: 02-10-2004 at 07:25 PM.
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02-10-2004, 07:27 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
One of the things we're dancing around in this thread but haven't really written is that Lowe seems to want it both ways.

He wants the fanbase to blindly follow the make the playoffs mantra, but is unwilling to trade anything for immediate help.

I'm not ripping him for it, that's what I want him to do.

What I don't like is the impact it's having on the team. The coach looks like he's nearer a stroke everyday, the pp men are getting sawdust out of sticks that aren't wood, and the goalies are trying to keep their heads above water in a pressure cooker.

And I'm starting to feel sorry for MacTavish. And believe me, that takes alot!
Well lets look at this objectively.

The playoff contenders want to give draft choices or prospects.

The non playoff teams want to dump salary and trade players for the most part that are either overpaid, overrated or both.


Then there are the teams in the middle (where the Oilers fall). This IMO is the toughest position. You aren't clearly a buyer and you aren't a seller and thus your perception that Lowe wants it both ways. He isn't out of the playoff picture but he certainly isn't a buyer, and he is not clearly a seller.

My posts have not been to blindly follow Lowe but suggest that their is a reason that Lowe and most of the other Gm's in the same boat have not made a significant trade.

That trade that would really help those teams chances is not there. If it was wouldn't have Lowe and the other GM's in the same position made that trade?

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02-10-2004, 07:43 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
One of the things we're dancing around in this thread but haven't really written is that Lowe seems to want it both ways.

He wants the fanbase to blindly follow the make the playoffs mantra, but is unwilling to trade anything for immediate help.

I'm not ripping him for it, that's what I want him to do (although ideally he gets some balance on this roster before the end of the season, as in the original post in this thread).

What I don't like is the impact it's having on the team. The coach looks like he's nearer a stroke everyday, the pp men are getting sawdust out of sticks that aren't wood, and the goalies are trying to keep their heads above water in a pressure cooker.

And I'm starting to feel sorry for MacTavish. And believe me, that takes alot!
Lowe could still be riding the emotional high from the Comrie trade. And by that I mean, the guy pretty much got a blank cheque from the fanbase to do whatever he wanted in the Comrie situation, as long as we got something half decent with a pulse back. Now, it was definetaly not hard to hate Comrie, and that really played in Lowe's favor, even when the $1,000,000 "contribution" clause came to light( in fact, I still love that ). The public was fed up and screaming for blood, they wanted that little @#!*&#! dealt with, and Lowe delivered (on what level, some fans will argue forever) But, on the other hand, dare I say this is one of the most knowledgeable fanbases in the league. Other than the Esks, its all about hockey here. I hope he understand he does not have free reign to do whatever he wants (eg. sit on his hands) now, while the season goes(has gone?) down the toilet. The fans will not give him thesame leeway as before. The first issue dealt with one self-absorbed megalomaniac whose head grew faster than his wallet, this time were talking about the health and competitiveness of the whole team (and the prestige of the whole organization).

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02-10-2004, 07:48 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowetide
One of the things we're dancing around in this thread but haven't really written is that Lowe seems to want it both ways.

He wants the fanbase to blindly follow the make the playoffs mantra, but is unwilling to trade anything for immediate help.
I'm with Spaz on this one. What exactly is "immediate help"? Ulanov was immediate help, and Oates should have been, but those are the kind of players the Oilers are limited to. If they don't have a contract and will play for peanuts, then they'd make good Oilers. But I don't see how Lowe could improve this team this season while keeping the payroll in check.

If we're expecting Legwand or Marleau or Pitkanen type players, we can keep dreaming until we have a high enough pick to actually get one ourselves. Other than them, what type of players are we expecting that can be immediate help, without giving up the farm? Answer: 3rd/4th liners, prospects, picks.

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02-10-2004, 07:51 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Both are devils.

For my money, Lowe's biggest weakness is that he doesn't have any sense of timing. To my knowledge, he has yet to make a trade this year to shake the team up. Yes, he acquired Adam Oates and Igor Ulanov, but I would have liked to see Lowe shake up the makeup of the team, not simply add to it.

He didn't. The team kept getting worse and worse, until now they are in 12th and staring a long way up to the playoffs.
I'm sure every fan wants to see their team make a big shakeup to acquire some superstar for their team. The downside to that is that when you make a trade like that you're taking a huge risk that the player will pan out and actually help the team. For a team like the Oilers, that is a risk that we can't afford to take. Just look at the Ducks with Fedorov.
I think Lowe has a plan and he's not gonna scrap everything that he has done just yet...but who knows...if he does get desperate enough it just might happen. I'd just rather see the Oilers make a couple of small risks than one huge one.

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02-10-2004, 08:10 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
My posts have not been to blindly follow Lowe but suggest that their is a reason that Lowe and most of the other Gm's in the same boat have not made a significant trade.
I was sorry I wrote that "blindly follow" line, should have deleted. I hate it when I'm posting away and someone dismisses my point of view with a comment like that.

For the record, I respect your opinion, agree or disagree, and I don't think you blindly follow Lowe.

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02-10-2004, 08:12 PM
  #83
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Billy Moores is a GAB

Good Albertan Boy.

That explains his hiring along with paying Isbister and Cross's lifetime contract. Maybe even explains why five points in 40 games Chimera is playing over Rita

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02-10-2004, 08:23 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
I have to agree, sometimes I feel this board has too many rose coloured glasses on as it concerns K-Lowe. I'm not complaining its by far the most enjoyable, knowledgable board out there though. What bugs me the most is when Oiler spin is recited as gospel e.g. we're building for the post CBA world, the Weight trade was uneven because Dougie limited the teams he would play for.

As I see it K-Lowe had the following strengths and weaknesses

Strength

- Lets his scouts do there job and has put together a pretty good scouting team
- Shows no fear of pulling the trigger has confidence in himself
- Accessible and accountable to the media and fans

Weakness
- When it comes to evaluating NHL talent he's throwing darts, and its hit and miss
- Has no long term plan that I can see, I don't buy the "post CBA" crap, if that was the case why did he sign Oates, let Salo depreciate, not maximize return on Marchant.
- Has too much affinity for role players/pluggers
-bit of a hot head, a GM shouldn't get into public fights with players

That's just my honest opinion, its not a I'm bitter Toddy's gone call. He maybe scores average for his last 4 years and on a low budget team average managing = no playoffs.
Im gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on this point, I do sort of see his plan. He has stated many times that his plan was to remain competitive for playoff position (ie 8th place) until a new agreement could be reached where teh oilers would be on even playing ground with the rest of the teams. Hence why he signed adam oates this year, held onto salo, and didnt trade tood marchant last year at the deadline. Todd was an integral part of the team last year and helped us make that last push into the playoff spot, which I guess Lowe considered more valuable than whatever draft pick/prospect he could have gotten for him. I do agree that he is a bit of a hot head though, which is fine by me, I like that he's got some fight in him.

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02-10-2004, 08:27 PM
  #85
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Yes it is obvious we need a #1 center – but these do not grow on trees or the issue would have been addressed AGES ago. Here is the ESPN list of center – I challenge anyone to show me who we should get. Everyone is either unobtainable (Thorton, Vinnie, Sakic, Modana, Forsberg, Legwand) too expensive (Lang and the guys on the previous list) too old (Oates etc etc) injury prone (Antropov) and the problems go on…………

About the only guy I see as halfway fitting the bill is Jokinen (not too young or too old, reasonable salary, big, somewhat proven) and who knows if he is even available unless an outrageous overpay happens. Have you ever noticed that big-time centers almost never get traded unless it’s a salary dump like we endured with Weight. There’s a reason for that – these guys are almost impossible to obtain in trade.

So what is the answer – well it’s to do exactly what we are doing – draft centers in the first round and second round and hope ONE of them pans out. We don’t need any more than one guy to emerge and you have got to figure that we’ll get lucky with a single guy in our system. To make a block-buster trade now that costs us our valuable young cheap talent is silly – we need to keep them for after the new CBA. If any type of salary cap or luxury tax is instituted – that’s when we can make a quantity for quality trade with a team that has more than one high quality center but who is desperate for cheap young depth.

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02-10-2004, 08:28 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
I'm sure every fan wants to see their team make a big shakeup to acquire some superstar for their team. The downside to that is that when you make a trade like that you're taking a huge risk that the player will pan out and actually help the team. For a team like the Oilers, that is a risk that we can't afford to take. Just look at the Ducks with Fedorov.
I think Lowe has a plan and he's not gonna scrap everything that he has done just yet...but who knows...if he does get desperate enough it just might happen. I'd just rather see the Oilers make a couple of small risks than one huge one.
I didn't say a superstar.

For instance, two years ago when the Canucks were mired in their massive slump through december, Burke made two trades:

Denis Pederson & Drake Berehosky for Trevor Letowski, Tyler Bouck, and a 3rd round pick

Canucks 1st round pick & 3rd round pick for Trevor Linden and a 2nd round pick

The Canucks then went on a huge run from that moment on and eventually made the playoffs.

Lowe doesn't pull off those kind of 'timing' moves.

As for Lowe having a plan - do you really still believe that?

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02-10-2004, 08:38 PM
  #87
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I truly believe he has a plan, as the oilers have a very solid group of players and prospects, whom would be very easy to build around. They should have a big, skilled center coming up in the future years, which is a heck of a lot easier than trading for one. And most of all this team is in an admirable spot for post-cba positioning, as they have one of the lowest payrolls and already get the highest bang-for your buck.

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02-10-2004, 08:39 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
As for Lowe having a plan - do you really still believe that?
We "have" to believe that.

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02-10-2004, 08:42 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Both are devils.

For my money, Lowe's biggest weakness is that he doesn't have any sense of timing. To my knowledge, he has yet to make a trade this year to shake the team up. Yes, he acquired Adam Oates and Igor Ulanov, but I would have liked to see Lowe shake up the makeup of the team, not simply add to it.

He didn't. The team kept getting worse and worse, until now they are in 12th and staring a long way up to the playoffs.
Sort of like the way Milbury runs the Islanders? Always on their toes. Don't sign any long term leases?

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02-10-2004, 09:16 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky_Gretzky
I truly believe he has a plan.
Yep. His plan and the direction he's taken the team is quite clear. I guess you like it or you don't.

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02-10-2004, 09:25 PM
  #91
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Yes Lowe might have money to spend

but it will have to be spent to keep players in house because no one will want to come and play in Edm

Now don't get me wrong it will be great to be able to keep guys like Hemsky and perhaps Brew but it's not like you'll get FA's like Teemu and Paul waltzing in here .

So yeah Lowe has a plan but it doesn't involve acquiring goaltenders for some reason. And it involves trading centres and not getting pivots back and then attaching hope and wishes to young pivot prospects who are far from Heatley and Nash blue chippers

That is if Lowe has a plan


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02-10-2004, 09:31 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Seachd
Yep. His plan and the direction he's taken the team is quite clear. I guess you like it or you don't.
Agreed. I think Mizral has made his point many times that he doesn't think Lowe has a plan. My response is always the same. He's never gotten to watch a plan in Vancouver that worked and that is why he doesn't recognize one when he sees it. He thinks I say these things to annoy him but it is actually what I believe. It is the same syndrome that has Leaf fans planning the parade every October. They have never seen a winning team so don't really understand the pieces necessary. Do we have them? Most definitely not. Did that little piece of dog dirt Comrie upset the plan? Without a doubt. Does Lowe have a plan. I can see it. I think it is a good plan considering resources available. Are we on track? No, we lost an excellent 2nd line centre who was young. It put us back and we haven't recovered. What are we supposed to do? Give up? The plan is good and we are a lot stronger than we were 4 years ago in spite of what the Weight, Guerin, Hamrlik lovers think.

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02-10-2004, 09:45 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
For instance, two years ago when the Canucks were mired in their massive slump through december, Burke made two trades:

Denis Pederson & Drake Berehosky for Trevor Letowski, Tyler Bouck, and a 3rd round pick

Canucks 1st round pick & 3rd round pick for Trevor Linden and a 2nd round pick

The Canucks then went on a huge run from that moment on and eventually made the playoffs.

Lowe doesn't pull off those kind of 'timing' moves.

As for Lowe having a plan - do you really still believe that?
Last year at the trade deadline Lowe traded Niiniimaa and Carter for Isbister and Dvorak and Cross and Torres and the Oilers went on a tear and landed a playoff spot with points to spare. Oh I forgot, that wasn't a 'timing' move, that was a 'salary dump' so although the result was the same it couln't have been a good move. C'mon Mizral. You don't like Lowe, you don't like Lowe. I can live with that. But you can't keep picking that same example over and over again and say this is why Burke is great and Lowe sucks. Burke picked up a couple of moves for a couple of 3rd and 4th liners one of whom isn't even there anymore. The same year Lowe traded Poti and Murray for York. York was useless for the rest of the season but has since become one of our best players while Murray is gone from NY and most fans wish Poti was too. Was that a 'bad' trade?

Lowe is patient and maybe too patient for some. Nobody's timing is perfect all the time but I would rather have a GM who errs on the side of caution than one who pulls the trigger as some sort of cattle prod when things aren't going well. Muckler didn't do a thing earlier this season when Ottawa was in a funk and they played their way out of it. Does that make Muckler a good or bad GM? You tell me.

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02-10-2004, 10:21 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I didn't say a superstar.

For instance, two years ago when the Canucks were mired in their massive slump through december, Burke made two trades:

Denis Pederson & Drake Berehosky for Trevor Letowski, Tyler Bouck, and a 3rd round pick

Canucks 1st round pick & 3rd round pick for Trevor Linden and a 2nd round pick

The Canucks then went on a huge run from that moment on and eventually made the playoffs.

Lowe doesn't pull off those kind of 'timing' moves.

As for Lowe having a plan - do you really still believe that?
In all fairness the Canucks had Naslund, Bertuzzi, and Jovanovski back then. They already had a solid core and all Burke had to do was make a few shakeups. The Oilers don't have the luxury of having such a solid group of players.

If you're talking about a "shakeup trade", then yes, its is probably overdue, but besides our top players (Smyth, Brewer, Smith) Lowe doesn't have much to work with. I don't think the Oilers have enough assets (that are tradeable) that can obtain players that have the ability to mount a legitimate playoff drive.

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02-10-2004, 10:31 PM
  #95
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Edit: I posted this before reading some of the later posts, and others made some of these points better than I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
To my knowledge, he has yet to make a trade this year to shake the team up.
You think their record reflects a need for a shakeup more than being an accurate guage of the team in relation to its competitors? Where did you peg Edmonton to finish up anyway? 8th?

I recall a time not too long ago when people were screaming at Crawford to shake up a certain team in Vancouver. A team that was tanking a season. He didn't shake it up and Vancouver went on a tear afterwards. (edit: whoops, I stand corrected but its better for the next sentence anyway). Look carefully at the Oilers lineup and compare it to that Vancouver team's lineup. Does it seem likely that a shakeup (involving lateral moves, lets not assume Lowe could pull rabbits out of hats) could propel that Oilers team very far?

I like Lowe as a GM. Does having an opinion make me a yes-man? I also dislike Lowe as a GM. Does that make me a myopic cynic?

What I do not want to see is a GM (or heaven forbid a series of GMs with different ideas) make a series of desperate changes that amounts to shuffling guys off with no real improvements. The most dangerous time in a team's history has to be when it starts failing as it gets younger. Then trading becomes the team's quicksand: the more you struggle the more likely it is you'll be sucked down further. Rationally the GM knows the main ingredient needed is time. However the fans start calling for trades to get rid of all the slackers and because the problems have only been shifted around the team keeps losing. The owner changes GMs and coaches. And many fine players come and go.

To my eye, anyway, this is what has happened in Calgary until recently. A sequence of changes for change sake and a sequence of examples where patience might have been the needed virtue. Guys like Giguere and St. Louis gone.

That said, Lowe had ample time to make some changes. He didn't. That's a concern, but I think its a stretch to think that lateral moves would have make a positive difference on the season or, more importantly, the future.


Last edited by oilswell: 02-10-2004 at 10:37 PM.
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02-10-2004, 11:02 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilswell
I recall a time not too long ago when people were screaming at Crawford to shake up a certain team in Vancouver. A team that was tanking a season. He didn't shake it up and Vancouver went on a tear afterwards. (edit: whoops, I stand corrected but its better for the next sentence anyway). Look carefully at the Oilers lineup and compare it to that Vancouver team's lineup. Does it seem likely that a shakeup (involving lateral moves, lets not assume Lowe could pull rabbits out of hats) could propel that Oilers team very far?
But what do you mean by lateral move? I don't think trading one of our many wingers for a goalie would be a lateral move, and I think it would be great for the team. No, let me restate that, I think that not trading for a goalie would be a really dumb thing to do... hoping that JDD will be our savior, or that Salo/Conks will resurge is insane.

Moreover I don't think that it would have been pulling rabits out of a hat, Calgary got Kipprusof for what, a third rounder? There definately are goalies available, and we're stuck with Salo/Conks?

I don't think we should trade for the sake of trading, but our goalies suck, and not trading for one, I think is a big mistake. Of course we could use a a great center, but I think those are much scarcer, and I don't think a quarterback for the pp is nearly as important as a goalie.

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02-10-2004, 11:03 PM
  #97
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Last year's playoff run

The Oilers had a creampuff sked and Dvorak came in and put up points at a lesser clip than AC was already doing.

and if you think Cross was an improvement over Janne and therefore spurred on a great move as well, then I hate country music but George Strait said something about ocean front property in Comrie's new home state that just might interest you.

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02-10-2004, 11:19 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
But what do you mean by lateral move? I don't think trading one of our many wingers for a goalie would be a lateral move, and I think it would be great for the team. No, let me restate that, I think that not trading for a goalie would be a really dumb thing to do... hoping that JDD will be our savior, or that Salo/Conks will resurge is insane.

Moreover I don't think that it would have been pulling rabits out of a hat, Calgary got Kipprusof for what, a third rounder? There definately are goalies available, and we're stuck with Salo/Conks?

I don't think we should trade for the sake of trading, but our goalies suck, and not trading for one, I think is a big mistake. Of course we could use a a great center, but I think those are much scarcer, and I don't think a quarterback for the pp is nearly as important as a goalie.
People and the goalie situation really don't think this through. Tommy makes 3.9 million. Nobody is going to trade for him. We could send him down, but we'd still be paying him 3.9 and for what he HAS and possibly could do he's better then having Valiquette up. Nobody would pick Salo off of waivers because as said, there are cheaper younger goalies out there that could do a similar if not better job probably. So are we going to buy Tommy out? Why - so we have to go trade for another goalie and end up paying THREE pro goalies for a third of the year?!?!?! The changes in net will come in the offseason and for good and obvious reason.

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02-10-2004, 11:26 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
People and the goalie situation really don't think this through. Tommy makes 3.9 million. Nobody is going to trade for him. We could send him down, but we'd still be paying him 3.9 and for what he HAS and possibly could do he's better then having Valiquette up. Nobody would pick Salo off of waivers because as said, there are cheaper younger goalies out there that could do a similar if not better job probably. So are we going to buy Tommy out? Why - so we have to go trade for another goalie and end up paying THREE pro goalies for a third of the year?!?!?! The changes in net will come in the offseason and for good and obvious reason.
By the time the trade dealine is here, it'll be down to less than a million. And if Calgary can pay three goalies half way through the season, even though their 4 million dollar albatross (Turek) is signed through next year, I see no reason why we can't.

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02-10-2004, 11:29 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil slick
By the time the trade dealine is here, it'll be down to less than a million. And if Calgary can pay three goalies half way through the season, even though their 4 million dollar albatross (Turek) is signed through next year, I see no reason why we can't.
HOW ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S STUPID!!!!! It isn't AT ALL smart financialy!!! Is that good enough reason why the cash strapped Oilers can't?!?!?

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