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Cost of Schneider?

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Old
05-02-2008, 06:08 AM
  #1
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Cost of Schneider?

Hey, Devils fan here.

The Devils are in dire need of a big shot on the powerplay (as well overall offense from the backend), as well as someone who can move the puck out of the defensive zone with good passes. I think Schneider fits the bill pretty well. His cap hit for 08-09 is high, but the Devils have space, and Schneider is off the book by summer '09.

What would it take for his services?

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05-02-2008, 07:11 AM
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I'm thinking of a either 3rd/4rth rounder+ Mid Prospect

That'S coming from a Devil fan

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05-02-2008, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zajac View Post
I'm thinking of a either 3rd/4rth rounder+ Mid Prospect

That'S coming from a Devil fan
I like your name a lot for the second line center spot...

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05-02-2008, 08:17 AM
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I honestly don't think you have anything to deal. Which is not to say you don't have any attractive players obviously, just none that would fit a deal of this nature. Plus I think the Ducks would be more apt to keep Schneider as he was their best defenseman at times last season.

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05-02-2008, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pwnasaurus View Post
I honestly don't think you have anything to deal. Which is not to say you don't have any attractive players obviously, just none that would fit a deal of this nature. Plus I think the Ducks would be more apt to keep Schneider as he was their best defenseman at times last season.
If the cap situation better than expected? I thought Anaheim had to make some moves. According to NHLSCAP, Anaheim has $52.3M committed. Even if the cap is $56M it will be hard to fit Perry.

I guess you could demote or buy-out Marchant to ease it a bit.

Does Beauchemin figure to get dealt? What reasons could you give for his bad season?

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05-02-2008, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feed Me A Stray Cat View Post
If the cap situation better than expected? I thought Anaheim had to make some moves. According to NHLSCAP, Anaheim has $52.3M committed. Even if the cap is $56M it will be hard to fit Perry.

I guess you could demote or buy-out Marchant to ease it a bit.

Does Beauchemin figure to get dealt? What reasons could you give for his bad season?
You aren't wrong, we do have cap issues. But the Ducks are still a bit in limbo until Scotty and Teemu decide on what they want to do. If Scotty comes back then someone needs to go and I really think that someone will be Schneider.

If Scotty doesn't come back someone could still get dealt or bought-out but again doubt that will be Schneider.

As for Beauchemin, trading him would make me a very happy person. The guy is brudal. 2 seasons ago he masked it with timely hits and goals. This year he didn't. I think this past season is closer to the real Beauch than two seasons ago. I hope Burke trades him while the overall though on him is he is still pretty solid.

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05-02-2008, 12:18 PM
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I only see Schneider going if we have some scoring potential coming back our way in the deal and Niedermayer comes back.

As far as Beauch goes, he'll be a duck at least until he is a UFA, his contract is too good to sell him off after one year of cup hangover.

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05-02-2008, 12:34 PM
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If Niedermayer returns, I'm pretty confident Schneider will be moved. It will probably cost ~2nd round pick + low or mid prospect in value, but the Ducks would prefer even more a 2nd line caliber offensive (and veteran) player (C or LW).

Essentially a swap of an old 2nd pairing defenseman for an old 2nd line forward.

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05-02-2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Essentially a swap of an old 2nd pairing defenseman for an old 2nd line forward.
Caviat being that the old player coming back doesn't have an albatross of a contract. Schnieder may make a lot of money next season but it's only 1 season which makes his situation favorable, not to mention he played really really well at times.

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05-02-2008, 01:28 PM
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If Nieds comes back...maybe a 2nd or 3rd rounder just to clear space. The truth is from a ducks perspective we likely won't get full value in that situation, the downside is we could probably get a lot more for him at the trade deadline.

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05-02-2008, 07:43 PM
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I'd say 2nd round pick for Schneider if Scotty is coming back. If Scotty retires then the Ducks will hold onto Schneider at least until the trade deadline.

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05-02-2008, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
If Nieds comes back...maybe a 2nd or 3rd rounder just to clear space. The truth is from a ducks perspective we likely won't get full value in that situation, the downside is we could probably get a lot more for him at the trade deadline.
Agreed. If Scotty comes back we'll be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for him.

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05-02-2008, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Duckstudd269 View Post
Agreed. If Scotty comes back we'll be lucky to get a 3rd rounder for him.
In that situation the one thing in our favor is everyone will know he has to go and given the shortage of quality dmen league wide, maybe it could be some sort of bidding war. Honestly Brian Campbell is not that much better than Schneider and he's going to get 7 mil per at 5 years so some teams may want a short term solution instead..

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05-02-2008, 11:02 PM
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Hmm. Maybe it's me, but I think Schneider has a pretty high normal trade value. As is I didn't even think it was full value to get the "2nd + low prospect" that I suggested earlier. And some people are saying only a 3rd?

I mean I know trade deadline leads to some increased value, but MAB pulled a 3rd. Vandermeer and Modry pulled a 3rd. Hal Gill and Brad Stuart got 2 + 4/5.

So a 3rd for a 3rd pairing guy and a 2nd + ___ for a 2nd pairing guy. Schneider is a high-end 2nd pairing guy (who provides 1st pairing offense). And an offseason trade should also have more bidders since there should be more cap room available (after July 1st though).

I'd expect a late 1st + salary filler for "full value." Am I just overestimating what Schneider should net?

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05-02-2008, 11:26 PM
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I think so. With a relatively high cap hit, plus the fact that GM's know that Anaheim need to dump salary. Plus, Burke tends to overpay for cap space.

So yeah, that's a bit ambitious. I just hope he doesn't get waived.

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05-02-2008, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
I'd expect a late 1st + salary filler for "full value." Am I just overestimating what Schneider should net?
It's his age and cap hit that reduces to value to about a 2nd.

You are right second/third pairing D-men have a trade value around 3rd round picks, but the players you listed are cheaper and not injury prone.

At the trade deadline players are worth more due to the smaller cap hit and lower injury risk. i.e. injury prone players rarely get traded at the deadline unless your name is Forsberg. I'd keep Schneider if Scotty retired and depending on the standings, decide what to do with him.

As for - "Essentially a swap of an old 2nd pairing defenseman for an old 2nd line forward."

You'd want another Doug Weight? If so, his name will be Glen Murray... or maybe Mike Knuble or Robert Lang... or even Martin Havlat.

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05-03-2008, 12:35 AM
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Gaging Schneider's trade value is tricky. For one he'd be traded because he has to (i.e. Scotty comes back). NHL GM's aren't going to be doing him any favors. If you look back at last off-season, there wasn't any real salary dumps. Players were traded straight for players of equal salary primarily. Only a couple goalie trades like Fernandez and Toskala come to mind but teams will give more for a goalie.

But I think Schneider's age is counter-balanced by the length of his contract and the strength of this last season. He put up big points on the third worst offensive team. For 5.75 mil that ain't bad at all. Also considering he's only got one year on it I think teams will find him an attractive commodity. But again it goes back to leverage. If Scotty comes back Burkie has to trade Schneider before he can sign Perry. I really doubt he'd be able to get a 1st rounder for him unless he throws a prospect in with him. But a second rounder + a prospect or another lower round pick for sure. A lot of teams will try to send a large salary the other way which Burkie can't take.

Hopefully Scotty makes up his mind before the draft so we can get an 08 pick.

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05-03-2008, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lux_interior View Post
I think so. With a relatively high cap hit, plus the fact that GM's know that Anaheim need to dump salary. Plus, Burke tends to overpay for cap space.

So yeah, that's a bit ambitious. I just hope he doesn't get waived.
The "knowing that Burke has to dump salary" part is exactly why I wouldn't expect full value for Schneider. That's why I was only expecting ~2nd + low prospect.

Although I have to admit I was expecting around a low 1st for Bryz too. But in my defense, that was in the offseason, and under the assumption that the teams who looked weak in goal (Phoenix, LA, Tampa) would actually be willing to make a move instead of sit and have goaltending problems (and predictably, 2/3 had to make moves to shore up goaltending).
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
It's his age and cap hit that reduces to value to about a 2nd.

You are right second/third pairing D-men have a trade value around 3rd round picks, but the players you listed are cheaper and not injury prone.

At the trade deadline players are worth more due to the smaller cap hit and lower injury risk. i.e. injury prone players rarely get traded at the deadline unless your name is Forsberg. I'd keep Schneider if Scotty retired and depending on the standings, decide what to do with him.

As for - "Essentially a swap of an old 2nd pairing defenseman for an old 2nd line forward."

You'd want another Doug Weight? If so, his name will be Glen Murray... or maybe Mike Knuble or Robert Lang... or even Martin Havlat.
Why does his age matter that much? He's coming off of a pretty good season, and he's only signed for 1 year. It's not like he's 39, with 4 years to go, and it's a gamble that he'll regain form.

And how bad is his cap hit, really? I don't have much problem with the cap value. Yes I'd like him for about 5 even, but the extra .65 million is the UFA markup.

I'd like you to consider the other UFA defenseman signed last summer with similar salaries. Souray: 10 points 5.4 million (31.5 point pace), Timonen 43 points 6.33 million, Hamrlik 26 points 5.75 million, Rafalski 55 points 6 million. Schneider's 39 points 5.63 million seems about par.

His cap hit is prohibitive in that it's a big cap hit and not a lot of teams are looking to add that big of a salary. But I really think Schneider's value isn't worse than what you should expect for a UFA defenseman. Which isn't good value, but it's what the marketplace is at right now. Also consider this year's UFA defenseman crop, and Schneider would probably be the 2nd-4th best offensive defenseman available (he's neck-and-neck with Streit and Redden). So teams looking for offensive defensemen aren't going to have many other options.

Now he is injury prone, and that certainly does lower the value. And the 1 year thing is also a negative in that it means he's probably a rental. But who wants 35+ guys on multiyear contracts anyways?

As to "another Doug Weight", the key is Schneider is a 2nd pairing guy who's producing like one (actually he's ~1st line in offense, being 20th in the league in points). Weight was not producing like a 2nd line player at the time of the trade, he was somewhat of a reclamation project. Similar value would be a 2nd line forward who actually produced like one last season. Murray's 30 points doesn't qualify. I think Lang is a little soft for a Burke-style team. Havlat is too much of a risk. I wouldn't mind Knuble though, he's a good suggestion. But yes, I'd be OK with another "Doug Weight" if it was 59-points-like-last-season Doug Weight.

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Old
05-04-2008, 11:57 AM
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How much does Havlat make, 6 mil?

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05-04-2008, 12:39 PM
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If i was a GM I would be very interested in schneider because i would think of it this way. Do i pay 5.5 mill for 1 season? Or do i HAVE TO go pay 5-7 mill for 5 seasons on another defenseman? Some GM's aren't going to want to commit to pay 5-7 million for 5 seasons, but schneider is off the books in one season, so it's not that bad cap wise IMO.

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05-04-2008, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Why does his age matter that much? He's coming off of a pretty good season, and he's only signed for 1 year. It's not like he's 39, with 4 years to go, and it's a gamble that he'll regain form.

And how bad is his cap hit, really? I don't have much problem with the cap value. Yes I'd like him for about 5 even, but the extra .65 million is the UFA markup.

I'd like you to consider the other UFA defenseman signed last summer with similar salaries. Souray: 10 points 5.4 million (31.5 point pace), Timonen 43 points 6.33 million, Hamrlik 26 points 5.75 million, Rafalski 55 points 6 million. Schneider's 39 points 5.63 million seems about par.
You make good points, but the way I see it is that Schneider is 39/40 and unlike the other UFA D-men you listed who are 5-8 years younger and Schneider is slightly worse defensively comparatively (except Souray).

As a rental, he'll fetch a nice asset back, but he's a risk at the beginning of the season to a cap-strapped team (the ones who most want him) and too old for a youngish team looking to rebuild (those with the most cap space).

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05-04-2008, 07:55 PM
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I'm not sure how much would have to be added to either side, given one player's injury problems and the other's age and high salary, but what about something centered around Schneider for Connolly?

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05-04-2008, 07:59 PM
  #23
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I'm not sure how much would have to be added to either side, given one player's injury problems and the other's age and high salary, but what about something centered around Schneider for Connolly?
Problem is we can't take salary back with him unless it's miniscule and fills an open spot. I don't know how much Connolly makes off the top of my head but HIS injury history scares me. Look for Schneider to potentially fetch a pick + prospect.

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05-05-2008, 01:40 AM
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No pics, no prospects

Schneider for Zajac and everyone will be happy!

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06-12-2008, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by voxel View Post
or an old 2nd line forward."

You'd want another Doug Weight? If so, his name will be Glen Murray... or maybe Mike Knuble or Robert Lang... or even Martin Havlat.
Glen Murray and even Knuble are light-years better than the worn out Doug Weight, and also considerably better than the now-horribly-underperforming Lang. Havlat would be the best pure offensive talent of the lot ... if he wasnt made of glass/ injured all the time.

Altho all these 5 players you mentionned are 'old' forwards, they are not at all in the same category.

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