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Carter's Offseason

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Old
05-09-2008, 05:10 PM
  #101
ELab2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawksfan2828 View Post

I think Philly will just sign him then trade him. I'm about 85% sure on that.
That happens almost never.

And as mentioned your numbers are way wrong because they go with the cap (not exactly but practically speaking that works).

You've got to realize that people are paying for potential. Jeff Carter is probably worth 4 mil as a player, but he's got HUGE potential. Especially when talking offer sheets people are paying for potential.

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Old
05-09-2008, 05:20 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
.....For Carter ...
as a Canucks fan, I think you are delusional about the trade value of players like Edler, Schneider, Ellis and Mc.


Carry on though.

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Old
05-09-2008, 06:06 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
no, no they can't
show me where it states otherwise

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Old
05-09-2008, 07:15 PM
  #104
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To TOR:Carter

To PHI:Kubina,Wellwood and PIT 2nd

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Old
05-09-2008, 07:23 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Ovechkin187 View Post
To TOR:Carter

To PHI:Kubina,Wellwood and PIT 2nd
That's awful.

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Old
05-09-2008, 07:27 PM
  #106
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he isnt arbitration eligible

12.1. Eligibility.

(a) A player is eligible to elect salary arbitration if the
player meets the qualifications set forth in the following chart
and in Section 12.1(b) below:

First Contract Signing Age Minimum Level of
Professional Experience
Required to be
Eligible for Salary
Arbitration

18-20 5 years professional experience
21 4 years professional experience
22-23 3 years professional experience
24 2 years professional experience
25 and older 1 year professional experience

A player aged 18 or 19 earns a year of "professional
experience" by playing ten or more NHL games (regular season
and/or playoffs) in a given season. A player aged 20 or above
(or who turns 20 between September 16 and December 31 of the year
in which he signs his first Player Contract) earns a year of
professional experience by playing ten or more professional games
under NHL contract in a given season.

(b) Only players who qualify as Restricted Free Agents as
described in Section 10.2 and who have not signed an Offer Sheet
may elect salary arbitration.

(c) As used in this Article, "age," including "First
Contract Signing Age," means a player's age on September 15 of
the calendar year in which he first signs a Player Contract
regardless of his actual age on the date he signs such contract.

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Old
05-09-2008, 07:32 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
show me where it states otherwise
Page 1 of Article 12 of the CBA shows a chart. If you signed your first contract between ages 18 and 20 it takes 4 years of professional (10 or more NHL games in a given season) hockey experience to be eligible for arbitration.

You can download the CBA (in PDA format) at NHLPA.com

edit: Thanks Comely, that may be from the old CBA though, in the copy I'm looking at it's 4 years for 18-20 year old SPC signers.

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Old
05-09-2008, 09:54 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
You are seriously overvaluing the Canucks assets.

-McIntyre and Ellis are worthless. McIntyre might be a decent backup but Ellis is in the ECHL and is not going to sweeten the pot in a deal. He has virtually zero value in a trade. Schneider is the only one out of the three minor league goalies that has any value. However, Nonis already tried to make a pitch for Carter with Schneider as the centerpiece and Philly declined and demanded Edler or Kesler.

-Bieksa isn't worth much at all right now. He has 1 good season under his belt, he was terrible this year both before and after his injury, and he's about to be paid a salary that would make him the highest paid or 2nd highest paid defenseman on 20 of the 30 teams in the league. He would provide very little cap relief for Philly and may never return to the player he was in 06-07. That said, he does fit the Flyers' mold so he may be more valuable to them than to other teams.

-most of the secondary trade assets you listed are all worthless. MacIntyre, Ellis, Pettinger, and Ellington have almost no value in a trade. Pettinger was dumped in favor of 2 months of Matt Cooke, if that tells you his value.

-Edler is excellent and holds good value, but he faltered down the stretch when placed in top 2 or 3 role. Also, he is only signed for next season. If he maintains his development and with the way RFA salaries have been, they may be in the same situation as they are with Carter right now but in 1 year's time.


If the Canucks want to get Carter, Kesler + some prospects or picks will probably have to go the other way. Failing that, it will probably be Edler and Schneider. Holmgren would be insane to accept any of the options you suggested when simply letting him be signed to an offer sheet would net better results.

I don't really see how you can compare decent prospects like Bourdon or Schneider to Carter. Carter has proven his worth in the NHL and is potentially going to be making $5+ million next year. Do you really think Bourdon or Schneider holds that same value right now? Besides, if Bourdon and Schneider are each equal to Jeff Carter, then why did Tampa refuse both of them plus a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd draft pick for Richards? Do you really think that Halpern, Jokinen, and Smith are equal to two Carters and 3 draft picks? Obviously other GMs don't share your views on the Canucks' assets and neither do I.
Let's see... No roster space on the 2007-08 Manitoba Moose so Vancouver sends Ellis to near by Victoria in the ECHL so they can keep close tabs on him and help his development. After a slow start, he manages to make it as the league's all star goalie at the age of 22, but because it's the ECHL, Ellis is immediately worthless and has zero trade value. Brilliant insight on your part.

Of course Edler is worth far less than Carter. After all Carter is a proven NHLer at 23 and is ready to sign with the Flyers long term for $5 to $6 million per season, while Edler is just a 22 year old rookie that could only average 18 to 20 minutes playing first or second pairing, but struggled when asked to take on a #1 or #2D role as Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa and Krajecek went out of the lineup injured. We all know that the Flyers have no cap problems what so ever and the value of a player is measured by how much he is paid. Carter at a potential $5.5 million per year must be worth 10 times Edler who's salary is only at an embarasing pitence of just $550K. Edler obviously belongs in the AHL if that's all he can earn. Or maybe Carter actually did have more value to the Flyers when his cap hit was just $942K?

As for Bourdon. As a Canuck fan I'd rather keep him over Edler. Though he is behind in development now, he has more upside than Edler and the Canucks don't need him to reach that potential for years to come. Until then he is best used on the farm or as a #5 or #6 D with the Canucks. Schnieder I would prefer to keep too. At least until the 09/10 season so he is even more developed and we can know if Luongo is re-signing or not.

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Old
05-10-2008, 06:58 PM
  #109
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I'd have absolutely no problem with the Islanders offering him an offer sheet of 6 years at 31.5 million dollars. A young, talented pretty good sized center is just what we need.

Comeau-Carter-Okposo

Damn that would be nice

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Old
05-10-2008, 07:03 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
They can keep carter at $5 million and only move Umberger ... they don't need to move anyone else this season.
There are other options. Getting rid of Hatcher whether it be buyout, retirement or trade (unlikely) is another. Although I don't see Umberger here next year anyways. Frankly, I think he's overrated and someone might bite on the series he had against the Habs.

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Old
05-11-2008, 03:20 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Let's see... No roster space on the 2007-08 Manitoba Moose so Vancouver sends Ellis to near by Victoria in the ECHL so they can keep close tabs on him and help his development. After a slow start, he manages to make it as the league's all star goalie at the age of 22, but because it's the ECHL, Ellis is immediately worthless and has zero trade value. Brilliant insight on your part.

Ellis is worthless in an NHL trade. If you honestly think that he could be a key piece in a deal for a roster player, you're nuts. You may think he could be an NHL goalie one day, and maybe he will be, but if you think Bourdon + Ellis is going to net a 23 year old top 6 forward, then I don't even know what to say, as you're clearly unreasonable.

Quote:
Of course Edler is worth far less than Carter. After all Carter is a proven NHLer at 23 and is ready to sign with the Flyers long term for $5 to $6 million per season, while Edler is just a 22 year old rookie that could only average 18 to 20 minutes playing first or second pairing, but struggled when asked to take on a #1 or #2D role as Ohlund, Mitchell, Salo, Bieksa and Krajecek went out of the lineup injured. We all know that the Flyers have no cap problems what so ever and the value of a player is measured by how much he is paid. Carter at a potential $5.5 million per year must be worth 10 times Edler who's salary is only at an embarasing pitence of just $550K. Edler obviously belongs in the AHL if that's all he can earn. Or maybe Carter actually did have more value to the Flyers when his cap hit was just $942K?
Edler's contract expires in 1 year. If he continues his develpment he'll be looking for a massive raise, probably to something in the $3-4 million range that guys like Burns and Carle are getting. That could put Philadelphia in the same situation as they are now with Carter in 1 year's time. I'm not sure they're willing to trade away Carter just to avoid being pressed up against the cap for 1 season. My guess is, if they're looking for a young defenseman, they'll get someone a little older who's under contract for the next few years so they can have salary certainty. Bieksa may fit the bill, but his play last season may have scared potential suitors away.

Never once did I say Edler was worth less than Carter because of his pay. I defy you to point out where I said that. What I said was, that Bourdon and Schneider, two guys who haven't yet secured spots in the NHL, are not each of equivalent value to a guy who's going to be fielding $5 million offers after playing 3 years full time in the NHL. You said yourself that you think Bourdon should be on the farm or the #5-#6 D man for a few years. Do you really think Philly would trade Carter straight up for a guy who can't get into the top 4 for several years?

Quote:
As for Bourdon. As a Canuck fan I'd rather keep him over Edler. Though he is behind in development now, he has more upside than Edler and the Canucks don't need him to reach that potential for years to come. Until then he is best used on the farm or as a #5 or #6 D with the Canucks. Schnieder I would prefer to keep too. At least until the 09/10 season so he is even more developed and we can know if Luongo is re-signing or not.
That's about the only sensible thing you said in the whole post.

I never said the Canucks prospects are all crap. What I said was, that guys who haven't made the NHL yet (Schneider, Hansen, or Grabner) or guys who have struggled to gain a full time spot (Bourdon) are not going to net a 23 year old top 6 center on their own. This is evidenced by the fact that Nonis did try to pull off a trade involving Schneider for Carter but was rebuffed.

If those players had the values that you described, do you really think Nonis wouldn't have improved the team when was still the GM? If Schneider or Bourdon could net a player of Carter's caliber all on their own, don't you think he would have pulled that deal off? He offered Bourdon, Schneider, and a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick for Brad Richards, so obviously he wasn't averse to trading them for some scoring help.


Finally, Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, and Jeff Halpern are clearly not equal to 2 Jeff Carters and a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick, yet that is the logical extension of your reasoning. You can add as many as you want, but you've failed to come up with any rational arguments to back up your assertion that Bourdon, Schneider, Edler, and Bieksa are each of roughly equivalent value to Carter or that a trade of Bourdon and Ellis would be enough to net a guy who could probably land the Flyers two 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd round pick by virtue of an offer sheet.

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Old
05-11-2008, 04:28 AM
  #112
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I don't think the way of the offer sheet is going to play a big role this summer, to pry carter out of philly is going to take an offer sheet, in which the other team is probably going to recieve 4 first round picks.

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Old
05-11-2008, 05:06 AM
  #113
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I'm wondering if someone will throw a big offer sheet out there. Because signing Carter to a huge contract is still a pretty big gamble, he has the potential to be a 40 goal scorer but he isn't there yet. Also how many teams can afford to lose 4 1st round picks & have the cap space set up that they won't jeopardize their own core/young upcoming players that will need to be resigned in the near future. I really think it takes a unique team that has the balance to compete now so the team won't be losing high 1st round picks, but also has the cap space to essentially over pay for Jeff Carter. I don't see the flyers not matching anything under 4.5 million. No matter what happens it should be an interesting offseason for us flyers fans.

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Old
05-11-2008, 05:29 AM
  #114
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Carter's going to get a very good contract, but I don't think it's going to be a bank breaker. Fact of the matter is that so far this season, he has 62 points in 95 games, 9 in 13 playoff games, 53 in 82 regular season games. He didn't crack the 30 goal barrier and didn't really play his best hockey until Richards went down. Once Richards came back, Carter's level of play plateaued.

If someone is going to pay Carter, then it's going to be more or less based on what he MIGHT be able to score. As it stands, he still has some ways to go before he is the complete player. He's a center, but doesn't have the best play making skills. He's got a deadly shot, but his accuracy leaves something to be desired. He's also got a big frame, but sometimes doesn't use it. I can see Carter getting a contract similar to what Milan Michalek or Nathan Horton received.

If someone throws Carter a six million a year deal his way, I think you'll see the Flyers waive bye and take the compensation. Carter is a very good player, but he still hasn't reached his potential as of yet. It's also becoming a bit worrisome because everyone from his draft year seems to have made great strides in their game by year 3. I think it's safe to say Carter hasn't made the same kind of strides yet.

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Old
05-11-2008, 07:09 AM
  #115
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There are other options. Getting rid of Hatcher whether it be buyout, retirement or trade (unlikely) is another. Although I don't see Umberger here next year anyways. Frankly, I think he's overrated and someone might bite on the series he had against the Habs.
I am 100% with you.
Hopefully Homer gets a return, d-man is what we need.

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05-11-2008, 08:03 AM
  #116
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He won't even be close to hit the semi open market on July 1st. This is Homer we're dealing with here not JFJ.
When did John Ferguson ever do something like that? He's always had our players resigned before they could (for less too), the only complaint you could make is he resigned too many of them and didn't let anyone go.

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Old
05-11-2008, 08:29 AM
  #117
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7 years - $50.0 million. If Thomas Vanek is worth that, (IMO) Jeff Carter is worth it. Granted Carter has never scored 43 goals in an NHL season, but to me Carter is worth just as much (if not more) then Vanek.

I could see any team out there that has that kind of cap room willing to offer Carter that contract. As a Boston fan I'd be willing to offer him that contract even though Boston has a complete log-jam at Center already. If/when Phoenix/Vancouver/Columbus offers that contract there are two questions:

1. Is Jeff Carter willing to sign that sheet? Is he willing to play in a non-traditional hockey city? or for Gretzky? or... or... (My point is some players are creatures of habit... They also like money)

2. Does Philly match a 7 year $50 million contract?

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05-11-2008, 08:36 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by 8BostonRocker24 View Post
7 years - $50.0 million. If Thomas Vanek is worth that, (IMO) Jeff Carter is worth it. Granted Carter has never scored 43 goals in an NHL season, but to me Carter is worth just as much (if not more) then Vanek.

I could see any team out there that has that kind of cap room willing to offer Carter that contract. As a Boston fan I'd be willing to offer him that contract even though Boston has a complete log-jam at Center already. If/when Phoenix/Vancouver/Columbus offers that contract there are two questions:

1. Is Jeff Carter willing to sign that sheet? Is he willing to play in a non-traditional hockey city? or for Gretzky? or... or... (My point is some players are creatures of habit... They also like money)

2. Does Philly match a 7 year $50 million contract?

If a 7 year 50 mill deal is offered ,he would be a goner in philly

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Old
05-11-2008, 03:04 PM
  #119
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If a 7 year 50 mill deal is offered ,he would be a goner in philly
No doubt lol, that's 4 1st round picks.

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Old
05-11-2008, 06:07 PM
  #120
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No doubt lol, that's 4 1st round picks.
and chances are it'll be a ****** team offering that contract, so it's a done deal guaranteed

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Old
05-11-2008, 06:37 PM
  #121
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I thinbk the Bruins would like a shot at Carter. Kessel for Carter was rumoured at the trade deadline.

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05-11-2008, 07:01 PM
  #122
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I thinbk the Bruins would like a shot at Carter. Kessel for Carter was rumoured at the trade deadline.
yeah I remember that, glad it didn't happen though. I think that's a terrible trade for the Flyers (not that the value is too bad though)

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Old
05-11-2008, 09:55 PM
  #123
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No doubt lol, that's 4 1st round picks.
Thirded. I like Carter a lot, but if that is even a remote possibility, we take the picks and run. And I hope the team that does it sucks for years afterwards.

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05-11-2008, 10:04 PM
  #124
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yeah I remember that, glad it didn't happen though. I think that's a terrible trade for the Flyers (not that the value is too bad though)
Probably from a positional viewpoint. *IF* the Flyers are going to deal Carter, I'd expect it would be for a physical defenseman (as the main component of the deal).

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05-11-2008, 11:04 PM
  #125
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For both Schnieder and Edler:

Carter, Flyer's 2008 1st round pick and Knuble.
Wow, you seriously either underrate Carter's value, overrate Schneider's/Edler's, or both. IMO, Edler/Schneider for Carter is pretty close, maybe a bit more added on Philly's side(2nd round pick?). But adding their first and Knuble is ridiculous.

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