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Our biggest problem is down the middle

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:25 PM
  #1
Maxpac
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Our biggest problem is down the middle

I don't konw if i'm the only one on this but one of the reasons we got dominated in the playoffs is because our centers were way too weak, the middle of the ice wasn't covered good enough. It's either we're too weak or too slow. Now i'l use the example of 2 players that are already talked in trade proposals

1.
Mtl: Olli Jokinen

Flo: Chris Higgins, 1st, Alexei Emelin or Subban or O'byrne

2.
MTL: Patrick Marleau

San Jose: Saku Koivu

Now imagine this

Latendresse-Jokinen-Kovalev
S.Kost-Marleau-A.Kost
Maxpac/Dago-Plekanec-UFA/Kosto
Bégin-Chipchura-Lappierre

That line-up is not out of reach and all of these changes are very realistic. Not to mention this is a line-up that will generate more offense, more power and is much more suited for the playoffs. Now i know that it's very improbably that we have 2 new centers for our top 6 but i just wanted to know your impressions on this. Jokinen or Marleau or both would make excellent additions and fill a need we haven't looked at in years.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:27 PM
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JGRB
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I would support your first deal, I don't like the idea of giving up Koivu for Marleau though.. Considering Koivu plays more Marleau's size and vice versa.

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05-07-2008, 10:27 PM
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Ghost of Saku
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When will people here stop proposing a Koivu trade?

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:27 PM
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some guy on team 990 this morning emailed in this

Pleks, Higgins, O'Byrne and something else i forget but from the AHL

for

O. Jokinen

I laughed.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:28 PM
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both deals..... no chance we make two deals like that.....

Its not EA sports and there is a salary cap.

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05-07-2008, 10:28 PM
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imnothere
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Koivu is NOT going to get traded.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:42 PM
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During Game 5, I believe it was the 2nd Flyer goal, Richards blew thru the neutral zone while Lapierre was stationary, trying to trap, but waiting on his heels. I thought that play was an example of young players just not 'getting' it yet. A guy like him has to understand how to take away space on his side of centre.

Ratther than dream of deals for guys like Marleau that I'm starting to think come with baggage, do what Gainey says. What was his comment yesterday, youy can get better players or make your players better. As the kids mature, little but important things will have to be learned.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:43 PM
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theres no chance in hell Jokinen will be traded for Higgins(a good honest hard working player but overrated) and a mediocre prospect like Obyrne, subban, or Emelin(who might not even ever come).
For Jokinen montreal would have to give up one of their best players. I would think that the kostitsyns would be off limits because Gainey should want to keep them together. So montreal would have to trade someone like Koivu, or Plekanec . Then montreal would have to give up a 1st or a blue chip prospect like max-pac, mcdo, or chipchura.

I wouldn't take koivu for marleau though. I would want something more from the sharks

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:43 PM
  #9
Maxpac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brieremania View Post
both deals..... no chance we make two deals like that.....

Its not EA sports and there is a salary cap.
thanks for your contribution, not that you've maid any....

First off Marleaud is paid only 1.4 mil more and Jokinen is paid 5.25 mil a year

Smolinski 2
Ryder 3
Huet 3
Brisebois 1
Koivu 4.75
Higgins 2
Dandenault 2

That's 17 mil right there + the budget that wasn't spend last year + the couple of milions the cap will go up next year. Money is the least of our problems. This year we had way too much useless depth that cost alot of money. Next year we will have a better team, younger, hungrier and cheaper. It's still may and i can't wait for 08-09!

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:48 PM
  #10
Chomsky
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Jokinen at centre is NOT the solution. He's a much better LWer.. And those deals are awful.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:50 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
thanks for your contribution, not that you've maid any....

First off Marleaud is paid only 1.4 mil more and Jokinen is paid 5.25 mil a year

Smolinski 2
Ryder 3
Huet 3
Brisebois 1
Koivu 4.75
Higgins 2
Dandenault 2

That's 17 mil right there + the budget that wasn't spend last year + the couple of milions the cap will go up next year. Money is the least of our problems. This year we had way too much useless depth that cost alot of money. Next year we will have a better team, younger, hungrier and cheaper. It's still may and i can't wait for 08-09!

Its still unrealistic to expect such a big overhaul at the centre position..... One big gun, is a realistic possibility, but two?? Do you really want to mess with team chemistry that much?? Do you really expect both the Captain and an Assistant to be traded?? This isn't a team that needs such a major overhaul... Everyone wants the addition of an impact player, but if we are gonna go crazy with the lineup to add both these guys I wouldn't do it.

That said.... Individually I'd do the Jokinen trade; I wouldn't do the Koivu one.... I'd much rather have Playoff Koivu than Playoff Marleau.

With both trades you also forget that there is now a need for wingers and for one defenceman, I don't want to count on MaxPac and Dagostini to fill that role yet. Make them force their way on to the team like Sergei did, and like Andrei and Lats did... you don't hand a guy a spot IMO. Not if you wanna be a contender.

With one trade the lines look like this.

Latendresse - Jokinen - Kovalev
Sergei - Plekanec - Andrei
????? - Koivu - Grabovski
Kosto - Chips - Lapierre

Markov - Komisarek
Hamrlik - ?????
Bouillion - Gorges

How are you filling in those.... You wanna hand those ????? to rookies.... I'd rather they earn it.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 05-07-2008 at 10:55 PM.
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Old
05-07-2008, 10:52 PM
  #12
Bad Natey
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Koivu for Marleau?

Are you a Sharks fan?

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:53 PM
  #13
Andrighetto Fabolous
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Jaret Stoll!!!

#1 - Edmonton has Cogs, Gagner and Horcoff up the middle
#2 - He's a BIG right handed center and could be great on our third line
#3 - His trade value isn't high right now
#4 - He has a cannon and a better shot than Streit, therefore we don't need Streit on the first PP unit and don't need to waste over $3 mill on him

Jokinen and Marleau would be great but we'd have to give up a lot to get either one of them, Stoll wouldn't cost as much and he's still young and has lots of potential.

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:55 PM
  #14
Maxpac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
Jokinen at centre is NOT the solution. He's a much better LWer.. And those deals are awful.
no there not, both are fair.

There's been rumors about Jokinen wanting to leave Florida for a long time now, giving them Higgins, a 1st pick and a defensive prospect could be enough. And Marleau for Koivu is even more equal, as both are UFA next year, Koivu has his best firend there, he's cheaper and is more playoff proven then Marleau, while Marleau has had more success during regular swasons, is less injurie prone and would fill our need for a big center

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Old
05-07-2008, 10:55 PM
  #15
#57
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Of course our problem lies at center. Let me break it down for you:

WINGERS:
Kovalev
Latendresse
Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn
Pacioretty
Higgins
D'Agostini
Wyman

This right there my friend is 8 wingers that either are already top-6 forwards or will probably be pretty soon.

DEFENSE:
Komisarek
Markov
O'Byrne
Hamrlik
Gorges
McDonagh
Valentenko
Emelin
Carle
Fischer
Weber
Subban

12 blueliners that all have the potential to be top-4 Ds. 3 of them already are.

GOALIES:
Price
Halak
Danis

Enough said.

CENTERS:
The problem here is that we have Lapierre and Smolinski, two players that are barely NHLers at this point, along with Koivu and Plekanec, two players that are barely 5'9 180.

In the pipeline we've got Chipchura, Trotter, Maxwell, White, Aubin. Bunch of 3rd liners basically, our only hope really is Maxwell who IMO won't really be any better than Plekanec. Yet another 'soft' 2nd line center.

Of course our biggest problem is down the middle. Add LeCavalier or Eric Staal or Joe Thornton to this team and this is a whole different scenario against the Flyers, who BTW have Jeff Carter, Mike Richards and Daniel Briere down C.

Chipchura could be our Richards
Plekanec/Koivu are our Briere
Who will be our Carter? Our LeCavalier? Our Jokinen, Staal, Thornton, Spezza, Getzlaf?

When will we finally get a big #1 center that can break a game loose?

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:01 PM
  #16
Chomsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
no there not, both are fair.

There's been rumors about Jokinen wanting to leave Florida for a long time now, giving them Higgins, a 1st pick and a defensive prospect could be enough. And Marleau for Koivu is even more equal, as both are UFA next year, Koivu has his best firend there, he's cheaper and is more playoff proven then Marleau, while Marleau has had more success during regular swasons, is less injurie prone and would fill our need for a big center
maybe for you, but probably not for Jacques Martin.

Marleau is grossly overpaid, Koivu has a NTC and is UFA. Plus, he's 34 years old and close to retirement...

Next..

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:01 PM
  #17
Maxpac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brieremania View Post
Its still unrealistic to expect such a big overhaul at the centre position..... One big gun, is a realistic possibility, but two?? Do you really want to mess with team chemistry that much?? Do you really expect both the Captain and an Assistant to be traded?? This isn't a team that needs such a major overhaul... Everyone wants the addition of an impact player, but if we are gonna go crazy with the lineup to add both these guys I wouldn't do it.

That said.... Individually I'd do the Jokinen trade; I wouldn't do the Koivu one.... I'd much rather have Playoff Koivu than Playoff Marleau.

With both trades you also forget that there is now a need for wingers and for one defenceman, I don't want to count on MaxPac and Dagostini to fill that role yet. Make them force their way on to the team like Sergei did, and like Andrei and Lats did... you don't hand a guy a spot IMO. Not if you wanna be a contender.

With one trade the lines look like this.

Latendresse - Jokinen - Kovalev
Sergei - Plekanec - Andrei
????? - Koivu - Grabovski
Kosto - Chips - Lapierre

Markov - Komisarek
Hamrlik - ?????
Bouillion - Gorges

How are you filling in those.... You wanna hand those ????? to rookies.... I'd rather they earn it.
Even with one trade ( and i did write that is was unprobable for both) this is a much better team then the one we watched this year. My point is we can make those deals, We are way too small at center and it's imo the big reason why we have trouble competing with big teams. As muchas i hate the bad ones, i was searching for opinions, so sencirely, thank you

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:05 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
In the pipeline we've got Chipchura, Trotter, Maxwell, White, Aubin. Bunch of 3rd liners basically, our only hope really is Maxwell who IMO won't really be any better than Plekanec. Yet another 'soft' 2nd line center.
Trotter is a 20-year old centre who is projected as a #2 line centre if he makes the NHL. That's his ceiling. He's not going to be a #3 or #4 centre, he's #2 centre (or #1 at some point) or nothing.

Aubin, in my opinion, has the most talent out of any player listed there. He just is very, very raw and I think there is a problem with his work ethic. Hopefully he gets some AHL time next year and we can see if this kid really wants a shot at the NHL or not.

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:05 PM
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Maxpac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
Of course our problem lies at center. Let me break it down for you:
That was mostly it yes, we need help, and unless we draft Beach, pray that he becomes a #1 center and roll our thumbs for the next 3 years we need to get it via trade cause i don't want to spend 8 mil on Mats Sundin

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:07 PM
  #20
Maxpac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HallyHabsFan21 View Post
Jaret Stoll!!!
It's a good suggestion but i'm not sure if he has enough offense to fill the need

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
That was mostly it yes, we need help, and unless we draft Beach, pray that he becomes a #1 center and roll our thumbs for the next 3 years we need to get it via trade cause i don't want to spend 8 mil on Mats Sundin
There are other Centres who are gonna become UFAs down the road..... 2009 is a better year for that with Vinnie looking like a target (but i don't wanna turn this into another Vinny thread).....

A one year deal for Sundin is not such a bad option IMO.

I doubt he takes it, but I think you have to make that offer.

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:11 PM
  #22
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Marleau?We don't need someone who jumps out of the way of a shot

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Old
05-07-2008, 11:14 PM
  #23
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Koivu will not be traded.
For some reason I thought Higgins could be as part of a package, but Gainey seems reluctant to let him go right now... I think he still has hope Higgins will learn to finish.
As for Pleks, I don't see him going anywhere.
Also, see what mcphee said above.

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Old
05-08-2008, 03:52 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
Of course our problem lies at center. Let me break it down for you:

WINGERS:
Kovalev
Latendresse
Kostitsyn
Kostitsyn
Pacioretty
Higgins
D'Agostini
Wyman

This right there my friend is 8 wingers that either are already top-6 forwards or will probably be pretty soon.

DEFENSE:
Komisarek
Markov
O'Byrne
Hamrlik
Gorges
McDonagh
Valentenko
Emelin
Carle
Fischer
Weber
Subban

12 blueliners that all have the potential to be top-4 Ds. 3 of them already are.

GOALIES:
Price
Halak
Danis

Enough said.

CENTERS:
The problem here is that we have Lapierre and Smolinski, two players that are barely NHLers at this point, along with Koivu and Plekanec, two players that are barely 5'9 180.

In the pipeline we've got Chipchura, Trotter, Maxwell, White, Aubin. Bunch of 3rd liners basically, our only hope really is Maxwell who IMO won't really be any better than Plekanec. Yet another 'soft' 2nd line center.

Of course our biggest problem is down the middle. Add LeCavalier or Eric Staal or Joe Thornton to this team and this is a whole different scenario against the Flyers, who BTW have Jeff Carter, Mike Richards and Daniel Briere down C.

Chipchura could be our Richards
Plekanec/Koivu are our Briere
Who will be our Carter? Our LeCavalier? Our Jokinen, Staal, Thornton, Spezza, Getzlaf?

When will we finally get a big #1 center that can break a game loose?
To me, a lot is riding on Pacioretty, Latendresse and Chipchura. We need size/grit. If those guys don't bring it, who will?

I agree about center, but I think the problem in the short-term is Plekanec. Koivu is by far the better playoff performer and would be our #1 center without question, unless we get Lecavalier or something. Plekanec has a lot of work to do to clean up the memory of his performance in these playoffs. He better get on some serious roids if he plans on playing like that.

We badly need a #4 dman.

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Old
05-08-2008, 05:23 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
no there not, both are fair.

There's been rumors about Jokinen wanting to leave Florida for a long time now, giving them Higgins, a 1st pick and a defensive prospect could be enough. And Marleau for Koivu is even more equal, as both are UFA next year, Koivu has his best firend there, he's cheaper and is more playoff proven then Marleau, while Marleau has had more success during regular swasons, is less injurie prone and would fill our need for a big center
Marleau has had more success duriung the regular season?? Other than two seasons with Joe Thornton, tell me what he has done long-term.

I'm just flabbergasted. If people watched the seven playoff games Koivu played, he was a warrior and he was productive. If we have to trade to get better, look elsewhere.

Trade proposals

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