HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Our biggest problem is down the middle

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-08-2008, 05:33 AM
  #26
sandman08
Registered User
 
sandman08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hyderabad, India
Country: India
Posts: 2,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Marleau has had more success duriung the regular season?? Other than two seasons with Joe Thornton, tell me what he has done long-term.

I'm just flabbergasted. If people watched the seven playoff games Koivu played, he was a warrior and he was productive. If we have to trade to get better, look elsewhere.

Trade proposals
too much emphasis is put on the numbers listed when koivu's size is brought up and nothing more imo. as i said somewhere else, in the playoffs, he steps up, the key is how many times was his physical stature a definite problem that directly resulted in a goal against and how many times did he score or set up a goal where his physical limitations seemingly didnt exist (ie. how many goals did he get in the "rough areas" and by not playing a perimeter game?)

if you want to call it a "+/-" issue you can, but its not really representative given its not so much "was he on the ice" as opposed to "was he on the ice and beat because hes "not big enough" to compete" and the he was just outmuscled/out hit, i can think of only 1 occasion against philly where he was beat (game 4) by carter i believe but koivu still put up numbers and didnt shy away from the rough stuff either.

sandman08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 05:43 AM
  #27
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
Of course our problem lies at center. Let me break it down for you:

[.....]

CENTERS:
The problem here is that we have Lapierre and Smolinski, two players that are barely NHLers at this point, along with Koivu and Plekanec, two players that are barely 5'9 180.

In the pipeline we've got Chipchura, Trotter, Maxwell, White, Aubin. Bunch of 3rd liners basically, our only hope really is Maxwell who IMO won't really be any better than Plekanec. Yet another 'soft' 2nd line center.

Of course our biggest problem is down the middle. Add LeCavalier or Eric Staal or Joe Thornton to this team and this is a whole different scenario against the Flyers, who BTW have Jeff Carter, Mike Richards and Daniel Briere down C.

Chipchura could be our Richards
Plekanec/Koivu are our Briere
Who will be our Carter? Our LeCavalier? Our Jokinen, Staal, Thornton, Spezza, Getzlaf?

When will we finally get a big #1 center that can break a game loose?
1977-78 Centremen
Jacques Lemaire
Pierre Mondou
Doug Jarvis
Doug Risebrough

Tallest guy was 6'0 even and he played the least minutes.

I agree we need size and EFFECTIVE size up front, but it doesn't have to be at center. There are PLENTY of historical examples of great teams with speedy centres and big scoring wingers.

Imagine this:

Latendresse-Koivu-Sundin
AKost-Plekanec-Kovalev
Higgins-Chipchura-SKost
Streit-Begin/Lapierre-Kostopoulos
....Stewart, Lapierre/Begin

The top two lines have four big wingers, the smallest being AKost and that's more than fine. Sundin will be a great mentor for Latendresse's development as a power forward.

The bottom two lines have more physical guys in the middle, some two-way wingers and some PP and PK specialists.

I think that 3rd line will be an EXCELLENT two-way NHL line within one year. The speed of Higgins and SKost compensates for Chips' one relative weakness.

In terms of 5-on-5 play, I would play the first two lines 30-32% of the time each, the third line about 25-27%, and the fourth line the remaining 9-15% of the minutes.

I would try to spare Koivu and Kovalev from PK duty and preserve their energy for PP and 5-on-5 minutes.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 05:51 AM
  #28
BaseballCoach
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by anarmandaleb View Post
Koivu will not be traded.
For some reason I thought Higgins could be as part of a package, but Gainey seems reluctant to let him go right now... I think he still has hope Higgins will learn to finish.
As for Pleks, I don't see him going anywhere.
Also, see what mcphee said above.
Higgins doesn't HAVE to be a great finisher to be very, very valuable. He could continue being what he is now....a speedy guy with puck protection skills in the corners, an active stick that accomplishes MANY takeaways, and a 25-goal scoring touch that may approach 30 with more experience.

The guy I would love to see develop into a 35 goal garbage man is Latendresse and Mats Sundin may be the guy to show him how.

I also think Andrei Kostitsyn will go over the 30 goal mark by next year.

BaseballCoach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 06:07 AM
  #29
ECWHSWI
5M? insulting!!!
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,134
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
To me, a lot is riding on Pacioretty, Latendresse and Chipchura. We need size/grit. If those guys don't bring it, who will?

I agree about center, but I think the problem in the short-term is Plekanec. Koivu is by far the better playoff performer and would be our #1 center without question, unless we get Lecavalier or something. Plekanec has a lot of work to do to clean up the memory of his performance in these playoffs. He better get on some serious roids if he plans on playing like that.

We badly need a #4 dman.
REAL problem is the lack of support, not our 1st or 2nd line C per se... we've seen it this year when Koivu was injured, we were left with only ONE center with some offensive upside... and unless we ADD (not trade one of Plekanec or Koivu to get a center) one, we'll have the same issue next year... as soon as one of our top C will miss a few games we'll be stuck playing guys who never took face-offs in their life (S. K.) as replacements or guys who arent "setup man" (Higgins) or even worse, guys with no offense whatsoever (Lapierre / Smokes)...

that is reality, no one in their right mind would want a guy like Smokes or Lapierre centering the 2nd line of anything goes wrong... and that's what will happen if we trade Plekanec or Koivu to get a C, sure we might find better, but end result will be the same, ALL the offense will depend on them (almost), and that's what we don't want...

just look at Philly, they're having success while their best C (in points) got only 7 more than Plekanec's this year (75)... their 2nd line C (in points, still) got 72 though - not around 50 like ours, and their 3RD LINE C got as many as our 2ND LINE C...

same thing with wingers, when they were putting their 3rd line, either Lupul (46 pts), Hartnell (43), Carter (53) or Umberger (50) we were playing the Begin (8 pts), Kostopoulos (13) and Smokes (25) on ours... and sometimes Lapierre with his 18 pts...


the Stars ? Modano and his 57 pts is their 3rd C... Detroit same thing, ALL their 3rd liners have over 30 pts, not 10 or 15... only exception is PITT, but they have BOTH Malkin and Crosby plus Hossa on the wings, they couldnt care less if their 3rd or 4th doesnt score once in a while...



solution is simple (in theory) : no more Bonk, no more Smokes, get someone who can chip in offensively to center our 3rd line... we'll be all set, hell! even with an injured C we'll still get two C capable of playing an offensive role on the team... with everyone healthy it gives us a 3rd line like Latendresse - C with possible 40 to 50 pts - Lapierre (Bégin, Kosopoulos, etc)...

the actual top 6 players, a GOOD 3rd line, our "big 3" of Komisarek - Markov - Hamrlik, and a vet back-up to help Price and we're all set...

we can even give another 1 year contrat to breezer if we think O'Byrne isnt ready to play all of the 82 games next year...

ECWHSWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 06:25 AM
  #30
RC51
Registered User
 
RC51's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,693
vCash: 500
Gainey has a big war chest for the off season.
The Habs still had money this year, about 3-4 mil.
Huet,Smokes,Breezer,Ryder and probable Dandy will be gone and that amounts to about 9 mil.
Then add to that the cap is going up by about 3 mil.
Thats 15-16 mil in the war chest and thats if no other player leaves.
Raises will cost 4 mil ( about) with A. Kostitsyn getting the bulk.

Gainey has the bucks and the Cap room to land 2 UFA's
Top of the list would be Hossa for sure but look at the numbers, their would still be enough to land a 2nd tier Center.
With the Habs now a proven top team and with their 100th year coming up I think Gainey will open the vault and go for it.

RC51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 08:08 AM
  #31
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Higgins doesn't HAVE to be a great finisher to be very, very valuable. He could continue being what he is now....a speedy guy with puck protection skills in the corners, an active stick that accomplishes MANY takeaways, and a 25-goal scoring touch that may approach 30 with more experience.

The guy I would love to see develop into a 35 goal garbage man is Latendresse and Mats Sundin may be the guy to show him how.

I also think Andrei Kostitsyn will go over the 30 goal mark by next year.
I'd love Sundin for a year. He's so good inclose in taking up position and holding it. Your post made me think of when Leclair went to play alongside Lindros. A big man has to play with a certain arrogance, and I'm not sure that Leclair would've ver learned this if he stayed here. That stlye of slowing the play and calmy going where you want to, under control was sort of pionneered by that Phuilly team.

Lats could be interesting alongside Sundin. Probably a pipe dream, but fun to think about.

mcphee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 09:35 AM
  #32
Puckhead58*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,425
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I don't konw if i'm the only one on this but one of the reasons we got dominated in the playoffs is because our centers were way too weak, the middle of the ice wasn't covered good enough. It's either we're too weak or too slow. Now i'l use the example of 2 players that are already talked in trade proposals

1.
Mtl: Olli Jokinen

Flo: Chris Higgins, 1st, Alexei Emelin or Subban or O'byrne

2.
MTL: Patrick Marleau

San Jose: Saku Koivu

Now imagine this

Latendresse-Jokinen-Kovalev
S.Kost-Marleau-A.Kost
Maxpac/Dago-Plekanec-UFA/Kosto
Bégin-Chipchura-Lappierre

That line-up is not out of reach and all of these changes are very realistic. Not to mention this is a line-up that will generate more offense, more power and is much more suited for the playoffs. Now i know that it's very improbably that we have 2 new centers for our top 6 but i just wanted to know your impressions on this. Jokinen or Marleau or both would make excellent additions and fill a need we haven't looked at in years.

OMG I am getting sick of hearing about Marleau!!!! The guy sucks and doesn't show up when the team needs him the most....so why would we want him instead of Koivu???
Koivu ALWAYS plays awesome in games when the team needs him. He is a proven playoff performer and I would rather have a guy like that then a bum like Marleau that turns invisible when the playoffs start.

Puckhead58* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 09:47 AM
  #33
couris
Registered User
 
couris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,988
vCash: 500
Jokinen-Koivu-Plekanec

couris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 09:54 AM
  #34
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 31,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I don't konw if i'm the only one on this but one of the reasons we got dominated in the playoffs is because our centers were way too weak, the middle of the ice wasn't covered good enough. It's either we're too weak or too slow. Now i'l use the example of 2 players that are already talked in trade proposals

1.
Mtl: Olli Jokinen

Flo: Chris Higgins, 1st, Alexei Emelin or Subban or O'byrne

2.
MTL: Patrick Marleau

San Jose: Saku Koivu

Now imagine this

Latendresse-Jokinen-Kovalev
S.Kost-Marleau-A.Kost
Maxpac/Dago-Plekanec-UFA/Kosto
Bégin-Chipchura-Lappierre

That line-up is not out of reach and all of these changes are very realistic. Not to mention this is a line-up that will generate more offense, more power and is much more suited for the playoffs. Now i know that it's very improbably that we have 2 new centers for our top 6 but i just wanted to know your impressions on this. Jokinen or Marleau or both would make excellent additions and fill a need we haven't looked at in years.
Florida wants twice that for Jokinen.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 10:31 AM
  #35
CacaLauncher23
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 311
vCash: 500
I'm too much of a fan of Koivu to trade him.

I don't care what people say, I wouldn't trade him even if it meant more wins.

Hopefully he ends his career here.

We could all use a Lecavalier but I wouldn't trade half this team just to get that big center.

CacaLauncher23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 11:00 AM
  #36
Maxpac
Registered User
 
Maxpac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hockey city
Posts: 14,302
vCash: 500
Ok then forget about Marleau( i don't know why but what the hell, if i'm supose to hear the same crap for another week...)

What do you guys think it would take to get Jokinen, we baddly need a center like him.
We don't have anyone in the club that has potential to bring what he brought the last 3 seasons, especially not precious koivu, i don't care how much you huys like him, he's a great #2 that needs a big center in front of him.

Maxpac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 11:01 AM
  #37
Maxpac
Registered User
 
Maxpac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hockey city
Posts: 14,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CacaLauncher23 View Post
I'm too much of a fan of Koivu to trade him.

I don't care what people say, I wouldn't trade him even if it meant more wins.
Hopefully he ends his career here.

We could all use a Lecavalier but I wouldn't trade half this team just to get that big center.
that's the big problem with alot of people here

Maxpac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 11:26 AM
  #38
fufonzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,533
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to fufonzo Send a message via MSN to fufonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
that's the big problem with alot of people here
Marleau would not equal more wins.

fufonzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:02 PM
  #39
CacaLauncher23
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 311
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
that's the big problem with alot of people here
Short sighted fans who demand immediate results is also a problems.

CacaLauncher23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:07 PM
  #40
JHabs
HFB Partner
 
JHabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,358
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JHabs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
I don't konw if i'm the only one on this but one of the reasons we got dominated in the playoffs is because our centers were way too weak, the middle of the ice wasn't covered good enough. It's either we're too weak or too slow. Now i'l use the example of 2 players that are already talked in trade proposals

1.
Mtl: Olli Jokinen

Flo: Chris Higgins, 1st, Alexei Emelin or Subban or O'byrne

2.
MTL: Patrick Marleau

San Jose: Saku Koivu

Now imagine this

Latendresse-Jokinen-Kovalev
S.Kost-Marleau-A.Kost
Maxpac/Dago-Plekanec-UFA/Kosto
Bégin-Chipchura-Lappierre

That line-up is not out of reach and all of these changes are very realistic. Not to mention this is a line-up that will generate more offense, more power and is much more suited for the playoffs. Now i know that it's very improbably that we have 2 new centers for our top 6 but i just wanted to know your impressions on this. Jokinen or Marleau or both would make excellent additions and fill a need we haven't looked at in years.
I imagined it....Then I went outside to ROFL on my lawn

JHabs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:11 PM
  #41
LV Hab
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Country: Latvia
Posts: 186
vCash: 500
In my opinion it's better to go with the devil you know than the one you don't. Both guys would be a good fit and are great players, but trading away key players from our roster might not actually make the Habs a better team.

Jokinen has never played a playoff game in his career, yet people think he will make us reach that next level, while they say Marleau doesn't produce when it matters most. I don't really see this, if you look at Marleau's last five playoff appearances only the past two have been disappointing even though I thought he played pretty good this year (a couple of disallowed goals). He's no Koivu, but he has size.

The best center with size to go after would be Sundin, which I agree is needed, the guy is a beast and Mtl wouldn't have to lose a player...

Chips will add size down the middle next year and Gainey will bring in another big forward. See how the team is competing and make a move around the deadline if needed...Marleau for Pleks add something if needed.

LV Hab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:25 PM
  #42
JHabs
HFB Partner
 
JHabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,358
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JHabs
Everyone is like TRADE HIM TRADE HIM TRADE HIM. Koivu for Jokinen? WTF? Thats a trade you make if your team is struggling and u want a drastic change. Last time i checked we were #1 seed in the East. Also #1 in scoring.

You want to get to the next level? then you do what Gainey is doing. He started rebuilding the team and re-modeling our style. We are only on year 3 and hes done one hell of a job. Look at our prospects, look at the free agents, and then look at our city and our last Playoff run/season. Any person who doesn't come here when they were clearly offered a good chance/sum and what ever else is a fool.

We are one of the youngest teams and we shot out of a cannon this year. Trading our captain with playoff experience for some other center with none, is a foolish move, we wouldn't even know how the youngins would progress with the drastic change of a captain.

We need small moves, this Brunnstrom deal if it goes well is a huge pick, and if we get Jagr, Hossa, or even Huselius then thats all we need. (Preferably Hossa or Jagr )

JHabs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:28 PM
  #43
Blind Gardien
Global Moderator
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 19,868
vCash: 500
Trades are sooo passé.

Blind Gardien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:35 PM
  #44
LV Hab
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Country: Latvia
Posts: 186
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
We need small moves, this Brunnstrom deal if it goes well is a huge pick, and if we get Jagr, Hossa, or even Huselius then thats all we need. (Preferably Hossa or Jagr )
No guarantee Brunnstrom will have an impact on this team next season, but I agree it is a good move if TT says so. I really wouldn't be happy if Gainey signed Huselius though, it would remind of signing Samsonov when he did last season. Like he failed to sign his main targets and panicked and signed a left over perimiter player.

LV Hab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:42 PM
  #45
CastroLeRobot
Hab-a-bouille
 
CastroLeRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 731
vCash: 500
This team will win when Koivu becomes it's third line center. Imagine having 2 centers that are better than koivu...plus Koivu himself. Look at all the teams left in the PO...all have 3 very talented centers.

A-Kost, First Line center, Kovy
Higgins, Pleck, S-Kost
Tender, Koivu, Youngster (Dago, or whatever)
Begin, Lapierre, Kostom popoulos

we are 1 center away of being contenders...Don't screw it up, Bob!

CastroLeRobot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:43 PM
  #46
JHabs
HFB Partner
 
JHabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,358
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JHabs
Quote:
Originally Posted by LV Hab View Post
No guarantee Brunnstrom will have an impact on this team next season, but I agree it is a good move if TT says so. I really wouldn't be happy if Gainey signed Huselius though, it would remind of signing Samsonov when he did last season. Like he failed to sign his main targets and panicked and signed a left over perimiter player.
Hm true that, well again I'd prefer Jagr and Hossa. Jagr loves playing with Kovy. Hossa would be in the best environment possible. Not to mention Brunnstrom's idle is Kovy. Its the match made in heaven. If Brunnstrom is as good as TT says then We could easily match the firepower Pittsburgh dishes out with just our Kovy, Jagr,Brunnstrom line. IF all goes well. And if Pittsburgh can't hold on to Hossa we could Land Hossa and Brunnstrom thus matching the firepower once again.

This free-agent season might be small for other teams but its HUGE for Montreal.

JHabs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:44 PM
  #47
7th Player
Registered User
 
7th Player's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,961
vCash: 500
Just Sign Sundin! Give him whatever he wants!

Imagine on the PP

Sundin - Koivu - Kovalev
Markov - A-K

7th Player is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:47 PM
  #48
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,335
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAF HABS AWISS View Post
Just Sign Sundin! Give him whatever he wants!

Imagine on the PP

Sundin - Koivu - Kovalev
Markov - A-K
Easier said then done.If Mats doesn't re-sign in Toronto,he's no longer playing in the NHL IMO

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:49 PM
  #49
Habs 4 Life
No Excuses
 
Habs 4 Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Italy
Posts: 33,335
vCash: 256
Quote:
Originally Posted by couris View Post
Jokinen-Koivu-Plekanec
That would be really great but I would imagine that Pleks would be a player going the other way if we would acquire a player like Jokinen

Habs 4 Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-08-2008, 12:53 PM
  #50
JHabs
HFB Partner
 
JHabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,358
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JHabs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Easier said then done.If Mats doesn't re-sign in Toronto,he's no longer playing in the NHL IMO
He said at the trade Deadline "I hope I stay, but then again I don't even know if I'm going to be playing next year." "Since I am older then 30 I feel its my right to say I want to stay in Toronto and finish my career here. If i was younger like in my 20s it would be a different story"

He said something along those lines, but after watching the Question-Answer period with Sundin I really didn't want him because I knew he would be retiring the next year or even that year.

JHabs is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.