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Old
05-10-2008, 12:36 PM
  #101
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I just love how after one of the best seasons we've had since 93 we choose to bash each other about how all our players were terrible and how we suck when we were First in East, Goals, and Powerplay, not to mention we were riding a rookie Goalie with all the pressure in the world of being the next Dryden or Roy.

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05-10-2008, 12:41 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by #ZAMBONI# View Post
all the players have contributed . I just considere that Koivu wasn't a part of the players that gave their max all season long. As i said , with 3 weeks of rest , it was normal that he showed more energy than Kovalev who caried the team all season long .
I suppose you could say that about any player who took time off with an injury. Don't you realize that not playing because of an injury affects your stamina? You aren't even gracious enough to mention that when he came back he was playing with a broken bone in his foot. I can't imagine you doing more than sitting on your sofa, with a beer in your hand, watching TV, if you had a broken foot.

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05-10-2008, 01:10 PM
  #103
Kirk Muller
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Koivu played with almost everyone this season and was never able to build up some chemistry. Although we do need him on the team, he really gave the habs a boost when he came back. We need another superstar to help Kovalev, he can't carry the team by himself.
Kovalev wasn't by himself. See Koivu and last season for a guy by himself.

This year you had the emergence of Kostitsyn and Plekenac built of a good second half from last year. Higgins production actually increased despite many feeling he had a worse year. Skosts was a pleasant surprise as was Mark Streit.

You can't tell me the team that finished first in goals was carried by one guy.

Koivu played with many guys because no one expected Ryder to fall off the face of the earth goal scoring wise and then it was a struggle to complete Koivu and Higgins duo.

If the post season proved anything, it wasn't superstar players Montreal needed. They lacked experience, a big 3rd line center and a top 4 defenseman.

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05-10-2008, 02:04 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Andrei Kostopolous View Post
Kovalev wasn't by himself. See Koivu and last season for a guy by himself.

This year you had the emergence of Kostitsyn and Plekenac built of a good second half from last year. Higgins production actually increased despite many feeling he had a worse year. Skosts was a pleasant surprise as was Mark Streit.

You can't tell me the team that finished first in goals was carried by one guy.

Koivu played with many guys because no one expected Ryder to fall off the face of the earth goal scoring wise and then it was a struggle to complete Koivu and Higgins duo.

If the post season proved anything, it wasn't superstar players Montreal needed. They lacked experience, a big 3rd line center and a top 4 defenseman.
could have added : seven 50+ pts players, four 25+ goals scorers, only two of our 7 50+ pts guys being in the minus (+/-).

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05-10-2008, 04:26 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Komisaurus View Post
When will people here stop proposing a Koivu trade?
When he's gone.

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05-10-2008, 04:47 PM
  #106
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Some people nailed it. The problem wasnt the top 2 lines, we had no support from our bottom 2. When i saw the thread about Philly having more depth, i thought that it was crazy but now i know it was the thruth. Our first two lines would gave us great pressure and then it would die with our 3rd and 4th line.

The smolinski line gave us a lot in the boston series but they didnt do much in the philly one and quite frankly they are not a third line. The only one who should come back next year is Kosto. Our 4th line was useless with Lapierre as a center and streit as a winger. Lapierre is useless as a center, he doesnt have the smarts and discipline to play the position.

No need for a big UFA, we need two new centers next year. Chipchura should be in as our 4th line center, which is an upgrade over Smoke and Lapierre. Somebody mentionned it earlier, we should go after a guy like Jarett Stoll for our third line duties and he could replace streit on the PP. Also, we need to put Higgins on the third line. Hes not a first line player and would be more useful as great role player.

On defense, Bouillon and Brisebois have to go. OByrne in full time and get another top 4 D.

Lats-Koivu-AK 46
SK-Pleks-Kovy
Higgins-Stoll?-Lapierre or Dagostini
Stewart-Chip-Kosto

Markov- UFA or Trade
Hammer-Komi
Gorges-OByrne

Price

Its not much but we dont need much. This team is on the rise andd our time will come sooner rather than later.

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Old
05-10-2008, 04:57 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
I just love how after one of the best seasons we've had since 93 we choose to bash each other about how all our players were terrible and how we suck when we were First in East, Goals, and Powerplay, not to mention we were riding a rookie Goalie with all the pressure in the world of being the next Dryden or Roy.
Disappointment in how the playoffs ended isn't a bad thing at all. There isn't a ton of player bashing, just a lot of questions that people were asking all year long.

Since game 1 people were asking :

. Are we big enough?
. Are we gritty enough?
. Do we have enough tougheness?
. Do we have enough character?
. Is the goaltending good enough?

The same questions are being asked after a quick second round exit, which is only natural. Honestly, who cares if you finished 1st or 8th, if it means an early exit in the playoffs?

I mean, Gainey knows what ingredients made his playing days successful. He should be able to look around this group and honestly tell you he made a few mistakes.

I'd rather be a part of a forum that has people that see the glass half full and half empty, it makes for more interesting conversation.

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05-10-2008, 05:04 PM
  #108
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The same questions are being asked after a quick second round exit, which is only natural. Honestly, who cares if you finished 1st or 8th, if it means an early exit in the playoffs?
I understand what you are saying but I do think it matters in this case; with this the youngest team in the playoffs... We were a 1st place team, not one who snuck in to 8th; as such the pieces we need to add are not as large... the tinkering we need to do not as great, and we know that we have a good core....

We only need a few things.... some experience (and we gained a lot this year)... and someone willing to go get the garbage goals necessary in the playoffs.... and maybe one more defenceman.... but the drastic overhaul and infusion of talent that most saw was necessary for a team like the 2002 habs or the 2004 teams that also made the second round to be true contenders has already been greatly accomplished.

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05-10-2008, 05:11 PM
  #109
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The Habs are still a team in transition and they'll have to add more than a centre to be fully competitive. The 3rd and 4th line centres both aren't nearly good enough, and the easiest move available to Gainey, replacing Smolinski with Chipchura, would be spackling over a hole. Gainey has identified the need for another strong, aggressive forward with decent skills. However, he should be embarrassed by his own mention of further negotiations with Brisebois. Why, Bob? Surely there must be a better alternative.

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05-10-2008, 07:29 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jordy View Post
theres no chance in hell Jokinen will be traded for Higgins(a good honest hard working player but overrated) and a mediocre prospect like Obyrne, subban, or Emelin(who might not even ever come).
For Jokinen montreal would have to give up one of their best players. I would think that the kostitsyns would be off limits because Gainey should want to keep them together. So montreal would have to trade someone like Koivu, or Plekanec . Then montreal would have to give up a 1st or a blue chip prospect like max-pac, mcdo, or chipchura.

I wouldn't take koivu for marleau though. I would want something more from the sharks
Koivu and Chip wouldnt get Jokk

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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
The Habs are still a team in transition and they'll have to add more than a centre to be fully competitive. The 3rd and 4th line centres both aren't nearly good enough, and the easiest move available to Gainey, replacing Smolinski with Chipchura, would be spackling over a hole. Gainey has identified the need for another strong, aggressive forward with decent skills. However, he should be embarrassed by his own mention of further negotiations with Brisebois. Why, Bob? Surely there must be a better alternative.
Finally we can talk about improving the third and 4th lines. Talent is nice on a 3rd or 4th line. Hudler made a nice pass for a goal this evening.


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05-10-2008, 07:59 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
Finally we can talk about improving the third and 4th lines. Talent is nice on a 3rd or 4th line. Hudler made a nice pass for a goal this evening.
Getting one offensive player via free agency can allow us to go to three offensive lines... and improves this...

Akost - Pleks - Kovalev
Latendresse - Koivu - Rolston/Demitra/Jagr/other UFA
Higgins - Chipchura/Lapierre/Grabovsky - SKost
Streit/Begin - Chipchura/Lapierre - Kostopolous

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05-10-2008, 08:11 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Brieremania View Post
Getting one offensive player via free agency can allow us to go to three offensive lines... and improves this...

Akost - Pleks - Kovalev
Latendresse - Koivu - Rolston/Demitra/Jagr/other UFA
Higgins - Chipchura/Lapierre/Grabovsky - SKost
Streit/Begin - Chipchura/Lapierre - Kostopolous

To me the solution is not Chipchura, I like him but not with the style of our team. He is strong along the boards but is a bit too slow IMO to be our shut down center. Higgins IMO is the key in our team. He would be a wonderfull thrid line center, allowing us to get a top line winger to compliment Koivu or as you point out use Latendresse.

Signing of Rolston would could be part of the solution, another option would be Hossa (although likely to be very expensive) perhaps a deal is what is needed. Perhaps the solution is to use A.kost with Koivu.

A, Kostsitsyn, Koivu, S.Kostsitsyn
Latendresse, Plekanek, Kovalev
Pacioretty, Higgins, Rolston
Begin, Chipchura, Lapierre

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Old
05-10-2008, 08:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
To me the solution is not Chipchura, I like him but not with the style of our team. He is strong along the boards but is a bit too slow IMO to be our shut down center. Higgins IMO is the key in our team. He would be a wonderfull thrid line center, allowing us to get a top line winger to compliment Koivu or as you point out use Latendresse.

Signing of Rolston would could be part of the solution, another option would be Hossa (although likely to be very expensive) perhaps a deal is what is needed. Perhaps the solution is to use A.kost with Koivu.

A, Kostsitsyn, Koivu, S.Kostsitsyn
Latendresse, Plekanek, Kovalev
Pacioretty, Higgins, Rolston
Begin, Chipchura, Lapierre
Any way you want to do it... my point stands that only one signing need be made to add to the top 9 forwards and we can have three offensive lines...

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Old
05-10-2008, 10:24 PM
  #114
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Let us just groom Chipchura as a fourth line center next year, give him experience so he can dominate in 2009-2010

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05-10-2008, 10:29 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
To me the solution is not Chipchura, I like him but not with the style of our team. He is strong along the boards but is a bit too slow IMO to be our shut down center. Higgins IMO is the key in our team. He would be a wonderfull thrid line center, allowing us to get a top line winger to compliment Koivu or as you point out use Latendresse.

Signing of Rolston would could be part of the solution, another option would be Hossa (although likely to be very expensive) perhaps a deal is what is needed. Perhaps the solution is to use A.kost with Koivu.

A, Kostsitsyn, Koivu, S.Kostsitsyn
Latendresse, Plekanek, Kovalev
Pacioretty, Higgins, Rolston
Begin, Chipchura, Lapierre
Agree about Chipchura. He's not an offensively gifted, up tempo player. Now if we could transplant Lapierre's legs to Chipchura or Chipchura's brain to Lapierre, we might be on to something.

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05-10-2008, 10:34 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Agree about Chipchura. He's not an offensively gifted, up tempo player. Now if we could transplant Lapierre's legs to Chipchura or Chipchura's brain to Lapierre, we might be on to something.
au contraire my friend Chipchura got the shot and is really brilliant with the puck, at the beginning of the year he made some extraordinary passes to Kostopoulos and they actually scored

His upside is really, cruely and absolutely underrated

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05-10-2008, 11:15 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by #ZAMBONI# View Post
wow !

Habs finished first in the conference , first for "goals for " , first " power play " of the NHL , made 2 playoffs rounds ; and you are calling Kovalev a "creampuffs" ." or calling the players that made this great season possible " ballet dancers " .

If the Habs went that far and did that well , it was because those players gave their max all season long .Not only during the playoffs , full of energy after 3 weeks of rest .
When will people realize that playoffs are a totally different season all together? It's great that we did well during the regular season because it gets us to the dance but that's all the regular season is good for.

Once the REAL season got going these 'creampuffs' and 'ballerinas' didn't want to pay the price to keep winning.

It wasn't about having 3 weeks of rest, but it was about desire to win at all costs...and once the hitting began, these creampuffs clearly demonstrated that they were allergic to pain and shrinked away from any signs of danger.

How can you not see the difference in effort between:

A) 5'10" Koivu, still not giving up on his play by flailing his arms in a desperate attempt to complete his pass depsite the fact that there is a 6'4" opposing player now lying on top of him.

B) Kovalev, Plek and Kosties gliding along and avoiding traffic all together?

You, son, are wearing some very biased glasses.

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05-11-2008, 12:30 AM
  #118
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au contraire my friend Chipchura got the shot and is really brilliant with the puck, at the beginning of the year he made some extraordinary passes to Kostopoulos and they actually scored

His upside is really, cruely and absolutely underrated
Agreed. I think for a guy who logged fourth-line minutes, he played fairly well this season. Consider his point contribution in comparison to other fourth-line players like Kostopoulos (13), Dandenault (14), Smolinski (25), and Begin (8). They all logged roughly the same ice-time, with Smolinski about 1:30 more than the rest, and they all played with relatively the same calibre linemates, so it's somewhat refreshing to see he can still pitch in while playing a minor role. He also logged some solid PK time, once again with numbers similar to those players, so it's not like the point totals are skewed with ice-time.

I was surprised to see him score 11 points in 36 games. Lapierre had 1 more in 46 games last season with similar ice-time, and they're (supposedly) opposite-minded players. That really isn't that bad for fourth-line duties. Give him the right players and we might see a lot more offensive upside from him.

If you want to see a comparison within the team, Higgins was struggling on the third line in '05-'06 as well, with 15 points in his first 51 games. He then went on a streak with Koivu, and ended a decent rookie season. I think Chipchura's got good offensive upside, but moreso I think a lot of people are writing him off too early.

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05-11-2008, 10:16 AM
  #119
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The personal prejudice concept got me thinking about the corollary. I like and respect Koivu as a player and as a person so this may cloud my judgement in the opposite way and I tend to defend him or at least cut him a lot of slack if he's going through a rough patch. Is this any better?
The way I see it, yeah, fans of his on the board do cut him a lot of slack. His game, or at least parts of his game have deteriorated. He contributes, because like a lot of veteran players, he seems to be able to capitalize on what he can still do. He can create space,draw guys in and get the puck to linemates in good position. He can do a good job in tight around the net, sets up well behind the net, and when it's all said and done, he'll give you anywhere from 60-75 points over 80 games.

If Koivu played 80 games with Kovalev, both would have suffered, they aren't in sink in terms of puck distribution and koivu can't finish from the outside, bot anywhere near as well as Plekanec.

Koivu can be more effective than he was this year, I think he's at the point where his linemates have to carry the ball a bit more rather than wait for the playmaker to find them.

On a personal level, sure he can be criticized, I'd guess that he can be a prickly sob at times and wears his pride on his sleeve a little bit too much.


My issue with Z. is that I construed 'best effort' to mean 'best effort'. Best results is a fair arguement, but I take exception to effort. There's a big difference between working hard and working well.

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05-11-2008, 10:29 AM
  #120
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The way I see it, yeah, fans of his on the board do cut him a lot of slack. His game, or at least parts of his game have deteriorated. He contributes, because like a lot of veteran players, he seems to be able to capitalize on what he can still do. He can create space,draw guys in and get the puck to linemates in good position. He can do a good job in tight around the net, sets up well behind the net, and when it's all said and done, he'll give you anywhere from 60-75 points over 80 games.

If Koivu played 80 games with Kovalev, both would have suffered, they aren't in sink in terms of puck distribution and koivu can't finish from the outside, bot anywhere near as well as Plekanec.

Koivu can be more effective than he was this year, I think he's at the point where his linemates have to carry the ball a bit more rather than wait for the playmaker to find them.

On a personal level, sure he can be criticized, I'd guess that he can be a prickly sob at times and wears his pride on his sleeve a little bit too much.


My issue with Z. is that I construed 'best effort' to mean 'best effort'. Best results is a fair arguement, but I take exception to effort. There's a big difference between working hard and working well.
You can spin stats anyway you want to make a point.

Last year, Koivu had one of his best seasons statistically. he had stable line mates and Ryder and Higgins had good years. That being said, the Habs did not make the playoffs.

This year, Ryder was non existant, and all replacements were not goalscorers. Also, Higgins had a tough year.So statistically he has a down year and everyone is commenting that he is on the way down. Meanwhile the Habs have a great season, finish first in the conference, win a series and Koivu is probably the best player in the playoffs.

Now imagine if Koivu had an elite winger riding shotgun with him all these year, like a Selanne. Do you think we would be having the same discussion?

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05-11-2008, 11:19 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
You can spin stats anyway you want to make a point.

Last year, Koivu had one of his best seasons statistically. he had stable line mates and Ryder and Higgins had good years. That being said, the Habs did not make the playoffs.

This year, Ryder was non existant, and all replacements were not goalscorers. Also, Higgins had a tough year.So statistically he has a down year and everyone is commenting that he is on the way down. Meanwhile the Habs have a great season, finish first in the conference, win a series and Koivu is probably the best player in the playoffs.

Now imagine if Koivu had an elite winger riding shotgun with him all these year, like a Selanne. Do you think we would be having the same discussion?
Yeah, I think as players age, sometimes they have to be smart, know how to use what they can still do at a top level. This year, I imagine there were times that A.Kost,Pleks or Kovy were in a down period that we hardly noticed as one or two of the others were always hot. Koivu never seems to profit from just getting the puck to someone and letting them carry the mail. Higgins put up ok numbers in the end, but only showed flashes of the game in game out play we expected. A Hossa type of player can make something happen on his own, and that's why I suupported getting him, moreso, that's why I think Gainey wanted him or someone in that range.

It'd be nice if when Koivu goes thru those down periods that you know he'll have, someone else could carry things for awhile. It's about winning though, not finding ways to make one player happy, so if the team succeeds and treads water while guys try and locate their game, I'm fine with it.

For all the talk of missing grit and whatever, I thought that in the posts season, Kovalev fell into a trap. He wanted it badly and started tryting to do too much. It not only veered away from what he did so well all year, it negated his linemates. Add some weak goaltending in round 2, and we're talking about next year.

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05-11-2008, 01:29 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
au contraire my friend Chipchura got the shot and is really brilliant with the puck, at the beginning of the year he made some extraordinary passes to Kostopoulos and they actually scored

His upside is really, cruely and absolutely underrated

I'm sure it was his brilliant puck handling and extraordinary passing that got him demoted to Hamilton. Or maybe the coaches were all distracted by commotion in the stands while he was accomplishing these things and, unluckily, the video cameras were off so that they failed to record it. Or maybe Carbonneau was playing favorites with Lapierre and Grabovski.

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05-11-2008, 01:31 PM
  #123
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I'm sure it was his brilliant puck handling and extraordinary passing that got him demoted to Hamilton. Or maybe the coaches were all distracted by commotion in the stands while he was accomplishing these things and, unluckily, the video cameras were off so that they failed to record it. Or maybe Carbonneau was playing favorites with Lapierre and Grabovski.
see, you are proving my point, he was not ready last year but what i saw of him was good things

he is underrated from the upside

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05-11-2008, 02:22 PM
  #124
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During Game 5, I believe it was the 2nd Flyer goal, Richards blew thru the neutral zone while Lapierre was stationary, trying to trap, but waiting on his heels. I thought that play was an example of young players just not 'getting' it yet. A guy like him has to understand how to take away space on his side of centre.

Ratther than dream of deals for guys like Marleau that I'm starting to think come with baggage, do what Gainey says. What was his comment yesterday, youy can get better players or make your players better. As the kids mature, little but important things will have to be learned.
Excellent point. If you have confidence that the young guys are both capable and capable of learning, you need to give them an opportunity to do so.

How long have the Leafs being making trades for "names"? How well has it worked out?

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05-11-2008, 04:50 PM
  #125
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For all the talk of missing grit and whatever, I thought that in the posts season, Kovalev fell into a trap. He wanted it badly and started tryting to do too much. It not only veered away from what he did so well all year, it negated his linemates. Add some weak goaltending in round 2, and we're talking about next year.
I sometimes wonder how our expectation far exceed reality. Kovalev was directly responsible for two victories in the Boston series and scored two goals, including the game tying goal in the final seconds, in the only victory against Flyers. Without Kovy, they would not have gotten out of the first round.

Add to that steady diet of Chara and Coburn and at times double teams and we still expect a player to dominate. Unless you have multiple great assets that you can put on the ice at the same time (Pittsburg) everyone winds up getting shut down.

In my book Kovy gets a pass. He did more than his share in the playoffs. Looking back, goaltending was an issue. A bigger issue was the third and fourth line productivity in the second round. Against the Flyers, with their depth up front, our third and fourth could not compete.

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