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OT-Hanley Ramirez About To Sign 6-year, $70 million Contract Extension With Marlins

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Old
05-10-2008, 07:09 PM
  #26
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maybe 5 1/2
Hopefully not!

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05-10-2008, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Baseball is absolutely nothing like the other big sports. Having a top pick in baseball does not assure positive results. Just ask the pirates and padres (matt bush anyone??) Also the marlins Drafted Jeremy Hermida mid first, signed Miguel Cabrera as a free agent and they did draft Josh Beckett who they turned into Hanley Ramirez. The owner may be a total idiot but the scouting dept and front office are first rate.
Agreed!!!

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05-10-2008, 07:22 PM
  #28
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I love it. What a smart move by the first place Marlins. Yes, I'll say it again, the first place Marlins. Flying so under the radar, I love it. This signing is the result of a stadium on the way. They will not trade Hanley, he is here to stay. This move was a necessity, and I was thrilled when I saw this news on ESPN bottom line. With the stadium on the way, this will completely change the way they run things with this team. There will be no more sellling or trading away the players because they dont want to pay them. Having a stadium and all the revenue coming from it makes all the difference in the world.

And on a side note, Marlins are winning yet again. They just continue to roll. Their offense carried their pitching for the first few weeks of the season. Now their pitching has been dominating lately and there offense just continues to do the job. If they play with any sort of consistancy like they are so far, winning in the division is very doable. People will laugh, and not give the respect to the Marlins like they never do, but this team has proven that they can play and if you want to think otherwise, this team will put the hurting on them.

All I can say is, HELL YEAH for the Hanley signing and HELL YEAH to the first place Marlins continuing to keep rolling. LETS GO MARLINS.

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05-10-2008, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Baseball is absolutely nothing like the other big sports. Having a top pick in baseball does not assure positive results. Just ask the pirates and padres (matt bush anyone??) Also the marlins Drafted Jeremy Hermida mid first, signed Miguel Cabrera as a free agent and they did draft Josh Beckett who they turned into Hanley Ramirez. The owner may be a total idiot but the scouting dept and front office are first rate.
So picking ahead of other teams isn't an advantage? That's news to me. No doubt the Marlins have been able to find some good talent, but a lot of that has been via trade for players that are already thought of as elite prospects and a lot of that is by high draft picks and you surely can't deny either of those.

To be honest, teams like the Yankees, Red Sox and Braves who have been able to find great players without picking so early are FAR more impressive IMO.

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05-10-2008, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
So picking ahead of other teams isn't an advantage? That's news to me. No doubt the Marlins have been able to find some good talent, but a lot of that has been via trade for players that are already thought of as elite prospects and a lot of that is by high draft picks and you surely can't deny either of those.

To be honest, teams like the Yankees, Red Sox and Braves who have been able to find great players without picking so early are FAR more impressive IMO.
What the hell are you talking about??

No its not an advantage drafting early in baseball because the baseball draft is entirely predicated on signability. There is no structured bonus system so the yankees and red sox didnt "find" more players, they just spent more money on them. It's a fact.


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05-10-2008, 08:44 PM
  #31
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Well the Hanley deal was easy. He was Boston's top notch prospect, and overall one of baseballs best. Its getting the "throw ins" that make our management such a success. Like Willis being an add on, or Sanchez being the throw in to the Hanley deal.

What are you talking about part 2?? Sanchez was boston's top pitching prospect and was hardly a throw in. Willis wasnt magically added on either, he was the centerpiece of the clement trade, unless in your world Ryan Jorgensen Jose Cueto were front line prospects. Willis was unheralded by the media at the time but again, he wasnt a throw in.

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05-10-2008, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
What the hell are you talking about??

No its not an advantage drafting early in baseball because the baseball draft is entirely predicated on signability. There is no structured bonus system so the yankees and red sox didnt "find" more players, they just spent more money on them. It's a fact.
Sorry, but I just completely disagree. The best players go first just like any other draft.

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05-10-2008, 11:06 PM
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no they absolutely don't. you're talking to someone who handles the draft for a living. Baseballs draft is totally predicated on signability. You're 100 percent wrong. That's why rick porcello fell to the tigers last year and guys like matt laporta and stephen drew fall or flat out dont sign out of HS. signability.


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05-11-2008, 07:11 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Sorry, but I just completely disagree. The best players go first just like any other draft.
What? No they dont because you can draft some kid in like the 27th round and he can become an all-star. Piazza was drafted in like the last round of his draft yr and he went on to have all-star seasons.
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
no they absolutely don't. you're talking to someone who handles the draft for a living. Baseballs draft is totally predicated on signability. You're 100 percent wrong. That's why rick porcello fell to the tigers last year and guys like matt laporta and stephen drew fall or flat out dont sign out of HS. signability.
39ontheline is right on this one. Baseball is completely different with the draft. The reason I know this was because a friend of mine was picked 5th one yr and the #1 pick was obviously a much better player (heck the guy drafted right after him has been a superstar in the league since drafted). However, leading up to the draft, there was potential problems with signing said #1 player and it started going around that my friend was going to go #1 because he was willing to sign for less. Yes teams want the best talent but if you look at the top of the draft, its very hit-or-miss for many yrs and that can be a bad investment at times.

Here's an example though, strictly using Marlins picks:
1992 28th overall - Charles Johnson
1994 5th overall - Josh Booty

Who would you rather have? Even still if you look, guys like Chase Utley can get picked at 15th and you can't tell me that those other 14 guys ahead of him are having better careers. Baseball scouting is more of an art form than a science...the teams with the best scouts are always going to be able to find talent in various places (whether it be the draft, from other teams in the minors, or other countries).

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05-11-2008, 08:24 AM
  #35
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I agree that attendence needs to be better. Part of it is because it rains in Florida and people aren't going to buy tickets to go to a game they don't know will be played if it rains. The other part is the teams stability of players. Players keep getting traded away so fans don't get into it because eventually their favorite player gets traded but with the new stadium deal, Lorea said that would change.
Don't count your chickens before they hatch. I've heard that song and dance before.

Sincerely,

A former Expos fan

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05-11-2008, 11:04 AM
  #36
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I know what you guys are talking about, but simply just don't agree. When you're drafting at the top, you STILL have the pick of the players who you believe you can sign. You've got the pick of the litter among those who you deem sign-able.

The thing about baseball that makes it vastly different is the sheer number of players who are drafted.

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05-11-2008, 02:04 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about. Baseball is absolutely nothing like the other big sports. Having a top pick in baseball does not assure positive results. Just ask the pirates and padres (matt bush anyone??) Also the marlins Drafted Jeremy Hermida mid first, signed Miguel Cabrera as a free agent and they did draft Josh Beckett who they turned into Hanley Ramirez. The owner may be a total idiot but the scouting dept and front office are first rate.
Baseball's draft system is flawed. There is no rookie cap so the best prospects demand a stupid amount of money so only the rich teams like Boston and New York can draft them. This is why teams like the Pirates never get any better and Boston and New York have an endless supply of talent to develop/trade.

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05-11-2008, 02:08 PM
  #38
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Again. The key phrase was "after the stadium deal". I believe Delgado was traded before that.
You said that the Marlins trade people before they get the big contract. Delgado was traded after giving him the big contract. Hanley could be a different story because of the new stadium deal, but the Marlins did sign Delgado to a huge contract then trade him later when they decided to blow up the team again. I don't trust the Marlins owner at all, I'll never forgive him for his part in the downfall of the expos.

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05-11-2008, 02:11 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
So picking ahead of other teams isn't an advantage? That's news to me. No doubt the Marlins have been able to find some good talent, but a lot of that has been via trade for players that are already thought of as elite prospects and a lot of that is by high draft picks and you surely can't deny either of those.

To be honest, teams like the Yankees, Red Sox and Braves who have been able to find great players without picking so early are FAR more impressive IMO.
That because they have money. They get players that should be top 10 picks but demand so much money that the poorer teams can't draft them.

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05-11-2008, 03:11 PM
  #40
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What? No they dont because you can draft some kid in like the 27th round and he can become an all-star. Piazza was drafted in like the last round of his draft yr and he went on to have all-star seasons.
39ontheline is right on this one. Baseball is completely different with the draft. The reason I know this was because a friend of mine was picked 5th one yr and the #1 pick was obviously a much better player (heck the guy drafted right after him has been a superstar in the league since drafted). However, leading up to the draft, there was potential problems with signing said #1 player and it started going around that my friend was going to go #1 because he was willing to sign for less. Yes teams want the best talent but if you look at the top of the draft, its very hit-or-miss for many yrs and that can be a bad investment at times.

Here's an example though, strictly using Marlins picks:
1992 28th overall - Charles Johnson
1994 5th overall - Josh Booty

Who would you rather have? Even still if you look, guys like Chase Utley can get picked at 15th and you can't tell me that those other 14 guys ahead of him are having better careers. Baseball scouting is more of an art form than a science...the teams with the best scouts are always going to be able to find talent in various places (whether it be the draft, from other teams in the minors, or other countries).

First off the 2000 mlb draft was the worst draft in freaking history. I think 25 of the 30 first rounders didnt make it to the big leagues. Adrian Gonzalez,Chase Utley, Rocco Baldelli being the only substantial big leaguers from that round. In the last few years signability has trumped ability when it comes to the draft. You had to go back 14 and 16 years for your examples. Use the last few years for example. Scott Kazmir fell to the mets due to signability in 02 matt bush went #1 on signability in 04 ahead of Justin Verlander at 2 soley because of signability. Drew and Weaver fell because they had boras. 05 Cameron Maybin fell to ten because of his bonus demands, andrew miller in 06 and Rick Porcello in 07. The tigers have taken advantage of this system more than anyone. The yankees spent 8+ million on the draft last year so please dont tell me it has to do with the art of being a scout. I believe scouting is huge (look at the brewers) but money is just as important in baseball.

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05-11-2008, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
Baseball's draft system is flawed. There is no rookie cap so the best prospects demand a stupid amount of money so only the rich teams like Boston and New York can draft them. This is why teams like the Pirates never get any better and Boston and New York have an endless supply of talent to develop/trade.
Thank you

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05-11-2008, 03:14 PM
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I know what you guys are talking about, but simply just don't agree. When you're drafting at the top, you STILL have the pick of the players who you believe you can sign. You've got the pick of the litter among those who you deem sign-able.

The thing about baseball that makes it vastly different is the sheer number of players who are drafted.
You can disagree all you want, but you're still wrong. Just because of have your pick of signable players doesnt mean you're going to get the best players. The tigers have used this system better than anyone getting andrew miller, cameron maybin and rick porcello later than they should have been drafted because they have been willing to pay. Same with the yankees who spent 8 + mil on there draft last year and the red sox who have been willing to pay over slot later in the draft.

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05-11-2008, 04:23 PM
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Beinfest is one of the top GMs in the majors, at least IMO. The only move I can really question is the Urbina acquisition that cost us Adrian Gonzalez, even though Urbina was vital to our WS title run. That whole management department is amazing.
That was a great trade by Beinfest in that it filled the one remaining significant hole, the Conine trade was the move that filled the last but less significant hole, standing in the way of a World Series. That's what happens when you're in the hunt for a Championship. You trade tomorrow for today and worry about tomorrow when it gets here. Tigers made a similar trade which resulted in a Division title by trading John Smoltz to the Braves for Doyle Alexander, who then went 9-0 with a 1.53 ERA for the Tigers the rest of the season.

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05-11-2008, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
You can disagree all you want, but you're still wrong. Just because of have your pick of signable players doesnt mean you're going to get the best players. The tigers have used this system better than anyone getting andrew miller, cameron maybin and rick porcello later than they should have been drafted because they have been willing to pay. Same with the yankees who spent 8 + mil on there draft last year and the red sox who have been willing to pay over slot later in the draft.
Well, you telling me I'm wrong doesn't exactly mean a lot to me. Oh yea, a suggestion -- try not to come off as so pompous when you disagree with someone. How many rookie of the years were DRAFTED by the Marlins? 0

Back on topic here, I still know it won't matter who they sign because the Marlins will continue to be a revolving door of young talent until someone else buys the team.


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05-11-2008, 07:57 PM
  #45
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You said that the Marlins trade people before they get the big contract. Delgado was traded after giving him the big contract. Hanley could be a different story because of the new stadium deal, but the Marlins did sign Delgado to a huge contract then trade him later when they decided to blow up the team again. I don't trust the Marlins owner at all, I'll never forgive him for his part in the downfall of the expos.
Delgado was a completely different issue. He was brought in as a FA to make us big time contenders, which did not happen. The Marlins thought that Delgado would put people in the stands which also did not happen. Why? because of the stadium/weather issues. The Marlins knew they made a mistake in signing Delgado and hadn't signed anyone else to a big contract until Hanley. But, they waited to clear up the stadium issue first.

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05-11-2008, 07:59 PM
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Don't count your chickens before they hatch. I've heard that song and dance before.

Sincerely,

A former Expos fan
I won't, but hopefully the second time is the charm and not the third(Hopefully they learned from previous mistakes)!

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05-11-2008, 08:34 PM
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Well, you telling me I'm wrong doesn't exactly mean a lot to me. Oh yea, a suggestion -- try not to come off as so pompous when you disagree with someone. How many rookie of the years were DRAFTED by the Marlins? 0

Back on topic here, I still know it won't matter who they sign because the Marlins will continue to be a revolving door of young talent until someone else buys the team.
Yeah I know it doesnt mean a ton, but you're still wrong, to take the whole pompous thing to another level. Doublediamondsportsmanagement.com and http://39ontheline.blogspot.com/ are good links to checkout. I for once definitely know what I'm talking about.

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05-11-2008, 08:57 PM
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Yeah I know it doesnt mean a ton, but you're still wrong, to take the whole pompous thing to another level. Doublediamondsportsmanagement.com and http://39ontheline.blogspot.com/ are good links to checkout. I for once definitely know what I'm talking about.
rattrick.com -- since I have my own website, I know what I'm talking about too. Actually, I am thinking I am going to start building rockets since I have my own website.

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05-11-2008, 09:14 PM
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rattrick.com -- since I have my own website, I know what I'm talking about too. Actually, I am thinking I am going to start building rockets since I have my own website.
I forgot about that trip. Hey, I have a hockey blog, think I'm going to apply for Toronto's GM opening. Then I'll send all of my good players here! What're we doing today Brain?

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05-11-2008, 09:51 PM
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Im a freaking baseball agent. It's not a fan site. Im a huge hockey fan but one has nothing to do with the other.

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