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Summer 2008: the time has come for Bob Gainey to hit a Homerun

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Old
05-22-2008, 07:54 AM
  #126
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
The thing about hitting a homerun since we're using baseball references is that you need a pitch you can hit. Being a good GM, or an elite GM, is very situational.

Burke made the bold moves for Pronger and Niedermayer, but he was one of the few that could have. Does that make him a better GM ? Holmgren made last year's splash, but didn't he simply do a good job in playing the cards he had ? Briere was , in the opinion of many, a lock to go to Philly. The Timmonen/Hartnell deals were out there because of the Forsberg deal, and the willingness of the 2 players to sign.

I want something to happen because frankly, it's fun when it does. Say what you want about the Hossa talk, it was fun while it lasted. If he doesn't sign here in July, I assume that Hossa has already narrowed his potential list.

Gainey hasn't made a panic move that's damaged the team going forward, because I believe that it's key to know when. I agree that now may be the time. Young players improving, #'s 11 and 27 not getting younger, so yeah it would be ideal. Forcing a deal may be destructive though. I don't want a deal so we armchair GM's can applaud the action.

So, if the Lecav's,Sundin's,Hossa's can be had, well, you have to try. I don't want to see MaxPac winning a Calder in Tampa while Vinny nurses a bad shoulder either. He has to see what's out there, and realistically spend his time where it makes sense.
Welcome to the 21st century....everyone is more excited about glitz and hype and quick fixes.

Back to the baseball analogy, if you keep swinging for the fences you're going to strike out more often. If anything, Gainey is methodical, like somebody said...will hit the singles and doubles and may foul off a bunch of pitches to stay at the plate. Ultimately he tries not to put his team into trouble.

I think the organization has realized that you cannot force UFA's to sign here. There are too many better situations for UFA's. So Gainey and company will chip away every year, build slowly and develop their own team. He may hit a homerun, but as you say someone has to throw a hanging slider.

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05-22-2008, 11:23 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
you know or you assume ?
"I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time," Sundin added.

"I have never believed in the concept of a rental player. It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey but for me, in order to appreciate it you have to have been part of the entire journey and that means October through June. I hope everyone will understand and respect my decision."


Now rather than wasting your time writing a smug message, you could of taken 10 seconds and actually looked it up for yourself... but naw, that's probably too hard.

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05-23-2008, 02:09 AM
  #128
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Honestly, I think Brunette would be a home run in the offseason. He is exactly what this team needs. Determination, hard work, goes to the net, good along the boards and can make plays and score as well.

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05-23-2008, 05:50 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
"I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL club at this time," Sundin added.

"I have never believed in the concept of a rental player. It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey but for me, in order to appreciate it you have to have been part of the entire journey and that means October through June. I hope everyone will understand and respect my decision."


Now rather than wasting your time writing a smug message, you could of taken 10 seconds and actually looked it up for yourself... but naw, that's probably too hard.

I rather have you do the job for me... now, can go back to your occupations until I have something rather boring to do, like looking for players quotes or something

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05-23-2008, 12:21 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
I rather have you do the job for me... now, can go back to your occupations until I have something rather boring to do, like looking for players quotes or something
Maybe you should spend less time relaxing and more time learning how to write. Just a tip... unless you're content with mopping all day long.

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05-23-2008, 12:41 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
how about Kostystin, Andrei ? he did play on the 1st for a full season... and Gorges ? who played with Markov, Hamrlik, Bouillon, took a regular shift most of the season and all playoffs games...

at some point you have to draw a line, age ? game played ? % of potential reached ? all of it ? or maybe it's the simple fact that you don't have to prove you belong in the league every single shift you play...

example : Gorges and O'Byrne, same age (1 month difference) - lets say Gorges play two or three bad games in a row, you think he'll be treated the same way as if its O'Byrne that plays two or three bad games in a row ? A. Kostystin and Grabovski, they get the same treatment ? reaction by the coach/GM is different, maybe because they're not all equals (sort of) you know... maybe some arent (considered) prospects anymore...
well A.Kostitsyn and Gorges would have to be considered regular NHL players at this stage. I don't think it can be really quantified, that's all I'm saying.

What this all really applies to is age and contractual status. That's all we ever talk about on here, who's staying, how long they're staying and who might end up going.

If you look to young wingers for the future, you'd best be lumping Latendresse and S. Kostitsyn in with Paccioretti and D'Agostini for all intents and purposes. They'll all be within a few years of one another getting a 2nd contract and reaching their prime.

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05-23-2008, 12:45 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Honestly, I think Brunette would be a home run in the offseason. He is exactly what this team needs. Determination, hard work, goes to the net, good along the boards and can make plays and score as well.
+1

i agree completely. he was a beast in the playoffs this year. we need a guy like him.

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05-23-2008, 05:27 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
Maybe you should spend less time relaxing and more time learning how to write. Just a tip... unless you're content with mopping all day long.
I think my skills in writing in a 3rd language are ok, how about yours ?

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05-23-2008, 05:38 PM
  #134
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Lets stay on topic and keep the personal stuff out or this will be closed like the Rocket Richard thread.

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05-23-2008, 05:48 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Odd how Sundin only garnered 8 percent support in the UFA poll.
He's perfect for the situation. A guy who would probably only want a 1-2 year deal is worth a huge overpayment in my book. Much better than a 6-7 year deal for Hossa if only for the flexibility it keeps and the risk it reduces.
I think the reason he only got 8% is because many people probably doubt he'd ditch the Leafs and come to the Habs, but I also completely agree, Sundin is the best UFA out there to help the Habs.

Like was said no players are needed to be dealt to acquire him and he wouldn't need a long-term deal, also:

- has not won a cup, will be very motivated to win one
- finally would give us a big offensive center
- he drives the net to create lots of his offense, something we lacked come playoff time
- would give us 3 offensive lines
- how sweet would it be seeing the Leafs best player and captain for many years leave them and come to the Habs?

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05-24-2008, 07:08 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by HallyHabsFan21 View Post
I think the reason he only got 8% is because many people probably doubt he'd ditch the Leafs and come to the Habs, but I also completely agree, Sundin is the best UFA out there to help the Habs.

Like was said no players are needed to be dealt to acquire him and he wouldn't need a long-term deal, also:

- has not won a cup, will be very motivated to win one
- finally would give us a big offensive center
- he drives the net to create lots of his offense, something we lacked come playoff time
- would give us 3 offensive lines
- how sweet would it be seeing the Leafs best player and captain for many years leave them and come to the Habs?
I agree Sundin would be a nice fit.

However,the downside with him, besides his age, is he has a tendency to be injury-prone, particularly late in the season or come playoff time. I believe he had nagging injuries keeping him out or diminishing his abilities the last two three times the Leafs made the palyoffs (hey, it's been so long ago, somebody confirm this please) anda again this year he couldn't finish the season.

So this is somthing to think about too, Markov-type (perhaps partly injury-induced) collapses are not condusive to winning the Cup...

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05-24-2008, 07:17 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by plafleur10 View Post
I agree Sundin would be a nice fit.

However,the downside with him, besides his age, is he has a tendency to be injury-prone, particularly late in the season or come playoff time. I believe he had nagging injuries keeping him out or diminishing his abilities the last two three times the Leafs made the palyoffs (hey, it's been so long ago, somebody confirm this please) anda again this year he couldn't finish the season.

So this is somthing to think about too, Markov-type (perhaps partly injury-induced) collapses are not condusive to winning the Cup...
These are good points regarding Sundin...but in TO he was the show, and needed to everything himself, and it seemed by the time the playoffs came, he was injured, or just beat-down tired...with the Habs going forward, he would not have to be the show, just part of it, and a team with a better and younger supporting cast...

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05-24-2008, 11:41 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
These are good points regarding Sundin...but in TO he was the show, and needed to everything himself, and it seemed by the time the playoffs came, he was injured, or just beat-down tired...with the Habs going forward, he would not have to be the show, just part of it, and a team with a better and younger supporting cast...

Agreed, given his age, they could pace him a lot more with the Habs that with Toronto. He'd have 2 other offensive centermen in Koivu and Plekanec. In Toronto he had Stajan and Wellwood, big difference.

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05-24-2008, 12:21 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
These are good points regarding Sundin...but in TO he was the show, and needed to everything himself, and it seemed by the time the playoffs came, he was injured, or just beat-down tired...with the Habs going forward, he would not have to be the show, just part of it, and a team with a better and younger supporting cast...
Exactly.

Thus three really good lines to roll, if he were to sign, Koivu/Higgins/???, Plekanec/A.Kostitsyn/Kovalev, Sundin/???/S. Kostitsyn.

In Toronto they were always looking for a scorer to wing Sundin, but I believe Sundin was & could be a finisher, imagine Kostitsyn Jr making those pretty passes from the RW to Sundin on the off wing, with that righthanded shot.

It may not be that far fetched to imagine Latendresse on the other side of Sundin & Tommy Kop playing his gritty style with Koivu & Higgins. Or maybe the big, speedy Wyman could sneak onto the wing with #11 & #21?

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05-24-2008, 01:22 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Odd how Sundin only garnered 8 percent support in the UFA poll.
He's perfect for the situation. A guy who would probably only want a 1-2 year deal is worth a huge overpayment in my book. Much better than a 6-7 year deal for Hossa if only for the flexibility it keeps and the risk it reduces.
What everyone fails to see is that Gainey has tailored the team to be successful for a long time, a cup contender for a long time. Buying Sundin on a huge contract goes against what Gainey had done. Sundin will retire within 2 years guaranteed, that helps us in no way, Sundin already said he is using his right as a vet to stay and finish in Toronto.

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05-24-2008, 01:31 PM
  #141
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What everyone fails to see is that Gainey has tailored the team to be successful for a long time, a cup contender for a long time. Buying Sundin on a huge contract goes against what Gainey had done. Sundin will retire within 2 years guaranteed, that helps us in no way, Sundin already said he is using his right as a vet to stay and finish in Toronto.
1. No, Sundin said he refuses to jump ship mid-season.

2. Exactly, he retires within two years. He'd cost the same as Hossa but for only a third or a quarter the length. If he was willing to break the bank for Briere and Smyth last summer for 6-7 seasons, it would be unreasonable to expect that he'd be against shelling out the same money for 2 years to a better player.

3. If your definition of successful is a second round exit in an uninspiring playoff run then yeah, keep the team as it is. Without another high-end player this team will just rinse and repeat.

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05-24-2008, 02:59 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
What everyone fails to see is that Gainey has tailored the team to be successful for a long time, a cup contender for a long time. Buying Sundin on a huge contract goes against what Gainey had done. Sundin will retire within 2 years guaranteed, that helps us in no way, Sundin already said he is using his right as a vet to stay and finish in Toronto.

Who said anything about a huge contract???

What it offers him is another chance to play in a hockey crazed Canadian city, on a team with some very good young players as well as some skilled vets. A team that seems to be on the rise.

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05-24-2008, 03:09 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by yarfangor View Post
What everyone fails to see is that Gainey has tailored the team to be successful for a long time, a cup contender for a long time. Buying Sundin on a huge contract goes against what Gainey had done. Sundin will retire within 2 years guaranteed, that helps us in no way, Sundin already said he is using his right as a vet to stay and finish in Toronto.
In fact the "retire within 2 years guaranteed" part is the part that helps most. Any team that signs Sundin to such a 2 year contract has inked themselves into a great situation, Montreal especially.


Sundin wants to finish in Toronto, sure, but there might be a one time window here where he's not quite ready to retire but doesn't feel comfortable playing on a team that's blowing itself up (if in fact that happens).

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05-24-2008, 03:10 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
1. No, Sundin said he refuses to jump ship mid-season.

2. Exactly, he retires within two years. He'd cost the same as Hossa but for only a third or a quarter the length. If he was willing to break the bank for Briere and Smyth last summer for 6-7 seasons, it would be unreasonable to expect that he'd be against shelling out the same money for 2 years to a better player.

3. If your definition of successful is a second round exit in an uninspiring playoff run then yeah, keep the team as it is. Without another high-end player this team will just rinse and repeat.
My definition of success is being projected to finish 13th in the conference and come out #1 in East and #3 in the NHL. We are still rebuilding, and people want immediate action for a one night cup stand. Gainey is moving for a longterm cup contender/winner. Making the franchise better so we can last longer as cup holders.

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05-24-2008, 03:29 PM
  #145
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My definition of success is being projected to finish 13th in the conference and come out #1 in East and #3 in the NHL. We are still rebuilding, and people want immediate action for a one night cup stand. Gainey is moving for a longterm cup contender/winner. Making the franchise better so we can last longer as cup holders.
You just don't get it... Koivu and Kovy aren't getting any younger. We get Sundin for a year or two and try to win a cup with our current core and once he retires we have him, Koivu, Kovy, BouBou, Dandy, and Begin off the books. We are not in cap trouble.

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05-24-2008, 04:25 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
1. No, Sundin said he refuses to jump ship mid-season.

2. Exactly, he retires within two years. He'd cost the same as Hossa but for only a third or a quarter the length. If he was willing to break the bank for Briere and Smyth last summer for 6-7 seasons, it would be unreasonable to expect that he'd be against shelling out the same money for 2 years to a better player.

3. If your definition of successful is a second round exit in an uninspiring playoff run then yeah, keep the team as it is. Without another high-end player this team will just rinse and repeat.
Better, really ? considering the last time he broke the 80 pts mark was 6 years ago, not too sure about that...

and the guy will turn 38 during the 08-09 season, he won't improve much you know...

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05-24-2008, 04:43 PM
  #147
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Better, really ? considering the last time he broke the 80 pts mark was 6 years ago, not too sure about that...

and the guy will turn 38 during the 08-09 season, he won't improve much you know...
Oh for God's sake. You're just trying to be difficult.

Briere 07-08: 79GP 31g 41a 72p -22 TOI: 18:51 FO%:50.5% SHTOI: .03
Sundin07-08: 74GP 32g 46a 78p +17 TOI: 20:04 FO%:55.2% SHTOI: 1.08

would you rather have Briere over Kovalev too?

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05-24-2008, 04:44 PM
  #148
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Better, really ? considering the last time he broke the 80 pts mark was 6 years ago, not too sure about that...

and the guy will turn 38 during the 08-09 season, he won't improve much you know...
Considering Smyth has never put up more than 70 points in any season over his career and that Danielle only broke 80 once, it's pretty clear that Sundin is the better producer. Not to mention a complete player.

But yeah, lets just ignore the fact that in those 6 years since the 80 point season Sundin's been a point per game player while only missing a half-dozen games a season.

Want more, son?

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05-24-2008, 05:17 PM
  #149
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Considering Smyth has never put up more than 70 points in any season over his career and that Danielle only broke 80 once, it's pretty clear that Sundin is the better producer. Not to mention a complete player.

But yeah, lets just ignore the fact that in those 6 years since the 80 point season Sundin's been a point per game player while only missing a half-dozen games a season.

Want more, son?


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Originally Posted by KostitsyntheBagBaby View Post
Oh for God's sake. You're just trying to be difficult.

Briere 07-08: 79GP 31g 41a 72p -22 TOI: 18:51 FO%:50.5% SHTOI: .03
Sundin07-08: 74GP 32g 46a 78p +17 TOI: 20:04 FO%:55.2% SHTOI: 1.08

would you rather have Briere over Kovalev too?
I dunno, you would bet your money on : Sundin getting 85+ pts next season... or... Briere having another 95 pts season next year ?
(and I don't like Briere much btw)


sure, talent wise he's better, and in his prime I'd take him over the other two anyday... but at some point, him turning 38 has to be taken into consideration...

if you want an example that make sense, look at Shanahan, everyone wanted BG to sign him when he left the Wings, now two years later, you still want the 40 years old Shanahan ? sure, was almost a PPG his first season as a NYR, but hey! in absolute numbers, it was 62 pts - and this season he didnt even reach the 50 pts mark, while clearly losing a step...

so, Sundin was a PPG last 3, 4 or 5 season ? good for him... what are the chances he'll be a PPG player at 40 though ? (he'll be 40 in the middle of the 09-10 season - in two seasons)


Sure, if he wants to sign here, I'll take him - happily! but would I give him the same money I would give Hossa (like you said in your #2 BT ) ? ?? ? NO WAY!


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05-24-2008, 05:33 PM
  #150
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I still fail to see the problem with having Sundin on a short term deal even if the salary is high..... Its not gonna get you into long term cap trouble.... Its a smart move to make.

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