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Jagr/Rangers to Begin Contract Negotiations Next Week -- Sather after Joni Pitkanen

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:12 AM
  #151
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It's great that negotiations with Jagr are under way, and I like the idea of possibly getting Pitkanen, quesiton is...would Edmonton accept Backman?

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05-20-2008, 08:06 AM
  #152
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Pittsburgh has a lot invested in their defense. Gonchar makes 5, Whitney makes 4, Gil makes 2, Orpik is going to make 3, Letang will get a serious raise when he comes out of his entry contract and Sydor makes 2.5. They're just fortunate enough to have been drafting top talent for the last decade, so their talent comes cheap on offense.

Detroit is hardly an offense-first team. They're the opposite if anything. They have two Selke caliber forwards on their top line and just about everyone of their depth forwards is just as reliable defensively as they are offensively potent. Most of their offense is generated by solid defense and forcing turn overs.
Detroit is completely an offense first team. They are puck possesion to the fullest. They are constantly in the offensive zone and are trying to score. The are probably the best passing team, and best puck possession team in the NHL. the reason they don't let up many shots/goals is because they always have the puck. Watching them really makes me wish that we kept more of our Euro players. I'm a big fan of watching the good passing and puck possesion style rather than our North American dump, chase, lose puck stlye.

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05-20-2008, 08:14 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Detroit is completely an offense first team. They are puck possesion to the fullest. They are constantly in the offensive zone and are trying to score. The are probably the best passing team, and best puck possession team in the NHL. the reason they don't let up many shots/goals is because they always have the puck. Watching them really makes me wish that we kept more of our Euro players. I'm a big fan of watching the good passing and puck possesion style rather than our North American dump, chase, lose puck stlye.
Honestly, does Detroit really strike you as a team that was built from the forwards back? I think it's the other way around. I'm not saying they aren't good offensively, but I'm saying they're better defensively. They aren't always in the offensive zone, during the Dallas series they spent a ton of time in their own end, keeping the puck to the outside and blocking lanes.

We tried keeping our Euro players and it got us nowhere. The European game is a lot of fun to watch, but it's not suited as well when you play against a team with a big, aggressive blueline. You could see Detroit get back on their heels when Nashville started throwing the body, and the same with Dallas.

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05-20-2008, 08:29 AM
  #154
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Detroit is completely an offense first team. They are puck possesion to the fullest. They are constantly in the offensive zone and are trying to score. The are probably the best passing team, and best puck possession team in the NHL. the reason they don't let up many shots/goals is because they always have the puck. Watching them really makes me wish that we kept more of our Euro players. I'm a big fan of watching the good passing and puck possesion style rather than our North American dump, chase, lose puck stlye.
You can certainly question Brendan Shanahan's tactical influence on the team. Sure Nylander overpassed the puck a ton -- and we had some downright soft players who wouldn't go to the net. But IMO now we are putting the puck far to much on the net without having a plan behind it. I think you need to win the war before you win the battle these days. You can't try to score on low% shots if you don't have the momentum.

Also our PP have only become worse and worse the more we have adopted Shanahan's formula for success. Our PP was like 8th ranked last season when everyone complained a ton on it for not shooting enough. This season it was 22nd ranked...

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05-20-2008, 08:34 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Honestly, does Detroit really strike you as a team that was built from the forwards back? I think it's the other way around. I'm not saying they aren't good offensively, but I'm saying they're better defensively. They aren't always in the offensive zone, during the Dallas series they spent a ton of time in their own end, keeping the puck to the outside and blocking lanes.

We tried keeping our Euro players and it got us nowhere. The European game is a lot of fun to watch, but it's not suited as well when you play against a team with a big, aggressive blueline. You could see Detroit get back on their heels when Nashville started throwing the body, and the same with Dallas.

The won both series though so obviously that style still overcame teams throwing the body around. I think that if you can keep passing, fast and accurate you will always beat a team that will chase you around trying to make a big hit. other teams wear themselves out chasing around Detroit trying to throw the body.

They do have two outstanding dmen in Lidstrom and Rafalski, but both those dmen are also great on offense as well. This was the third highest scoring team in the NHL this season. They were built offense first, control the puck, pass quick and accurate and control the tempo of the game.

Also our team didn't go nowhere when we had our Euro's. Our team was in first place almost the entire season. We fell apart that year because our goalie was injureed, and the best player in the league injured himself in the PO's. That team in 2005-2006 if healthy would have beat this past years team.

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05-20-2008, 08:37 AM
  #156
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You can certainly question Brendan Shanahan's tactical influence on the team. Sure Nylander overpassed the puck a ton -- and we had some downright soft players who wouldn't go to the net. But IMO now we are putting the puck far to much on the net without having a plan behind it. I think you need to win the war before you win the battle these days. You can't try to score on low% shots if you don't have the momentum.

Also our PP have only become worse and worse the more we have adopted Shanahan's formula for success. Our PP was like 8th ranked last season when everyone complained a ton on it for not shooting enough. This season it was 22nd ranked...
Nylander made that PP work. He passed extrmemly accurate (more so than gomez), but most importantly he constantly moved around in the zone creating lanes, and scoring chances. his stickwork, and skating ability (especially his tight turns) created havoc to PKers in the offensive zone. Sad to say but Gomez doesn't have near the talent, nor vision that Nylander did.

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05-20-2008, 09:43 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Nylander made that PP work. He passed extrmemly accurate (more so than gomez), but most importantly he constantly moved around in the zone creating lanes, and scoring chances. his stickwork, and skating ability (especially his tight turns) created havoc to PKers in the offensive zone. Sad to say but Gomez doesn't have near the talent, nor vision that Nylander did.
Why dont you take a look at Nylander's career outside of his 2 years with Jagr before you make an outlandish statement like that.

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05-20-2008, 09:46 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Why dont you take a look at Nylander's career outside of his 2 years with Jagr before you make an outlandish statement like that.
why don't you look at our PP this past season w/o Nylander?

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05-20-2008, 09:49 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
why don't you look at our PP this past season w/o Nylander?
And thats reason enough to make the statement that "Nylander is more talented than Gomez?"

How about "Nylander's style fit better with Jagr's?"

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05-20-2008, 09:52 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
why don't you look at our PP this past season w/o Nylander?
Did you ever consider that Nylander's style is just very different from Gomez's? Jagr and Nylander worked well together because they are both slow moving puck carriers, while Gomez is more about using his speed to find open passing lanes and create plays. That's why him and Jagr don't really work well together. I thought this was established after about the 15th game of the season.

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05-20-2008, 09:57 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
why don't you look at our PP this past season w/o Nylander?
Man, I really wish we had an injured, 36 year old Nylander with 3 years, 15 million left on his contract.

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05-20-2008, 10:01 AM
  #162
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And thats reason enough to make the statement that "Nylander is more talented than Gomez?"

How about "Nylander's style fit better with Jagr's?"
Also look at the teams that Nylander played on. Chicago, Washington, Tampa, Calgary. These teams were all horrible those seasons, w/ nobody else really helping him out. Gomez always had some good players to play with. Nylander was playing w/ alot of Rookies, and 2nd liners most of his career.

Just look at how their games are. Both are good skaters w/ Gomez being faster. But Nylander was better at turning. Nylander was a better passer, and a better shooter. His stickhandling is also better than Gomez. If you look at their vision, and where their passes end up you will see Nylander is more skilled than Gomez. Problem is is that Nylander didn't play defense nearly as well as Gomez, sometimes overpassed the puck and he is very injury prone, which is also why his stats aren't as impressive as they should be. If I had to pick a center for one season I would pick Nylander over Gomez every single time. Plus w/ Nylander you get the added bonus of him being great on SO's.

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05-20-2008, 10:01 AM
  #163
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OK, so you basicly say that Jagr did not play those 5 months during regular season but he was still the best forward on our team in points... I think it is quite nice produce for a guy who (according to you) did not play. What do you think? And I think I don´t need to mention that he was the best forward during PO; not a little but by a MILE!
No, I said Jagr had to save it for a two month stretch in which he basically took the team lead in points, and then was good in the playoffs.

It was pretty easy for you to forget that Gomez lead this team in scoring from about November to February, and was our best player against the Devils, wasn't it? I mean the guy only had 7 points in the first 4 games, and was excellent defensively to boot. Then Jagr surpassed him with a 3 point game in game 5.

I think it's quite nice that you're such a homer because you're blinded by your Czech goggles and you completely miss the point, not by a little, but by a MILE!

Jagr is getting older, and has to pull a Niedermayers and Selannes to be rested for the playoffs. I'd rather not bank my season on him being able to come in and produce like the Yankees did with Roger Clemens last year and Anaheim did with Niedermayer and Selanne (look at what happened there... first round upset anyone?).

You could do that if you want, and overpay him while you're at it, since you're a big advocate of Jagr. Give him that retirement check, go right ahead. Send this team right back in the direction it was before the lockout with overpaying past prime superstars to ridiculously unwarranted contracts. It's funny, because all of you people won't bring in a guy like Jason Smith at 3 years 9 million (which I don't agree with either, but just using it as an example) but you'll bring back Jagr at 2 years 12 million guaranteed just for him to save it for March and April. Not only that, but you want him back as captain! Last time I checked, the captain was supposed to set the right examples...

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05-20-2008, 10:01 AM
  #164
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Man, I really wish we had an injured, 36 year old Nylander with 3 years, 15 million left on his contract.
I never said I wanted Nylanders contract, b/c I dont. I said Nylander is more skilled than Gomez. So don't put words in my mouth.

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05-20-2008, 10:10 AM
  #165
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Did you ever consider that Nylander's style is just very different from Gomez's? Jagr and Nylander worked well together because they are both slow moving puck carriers, while Gomez is more about using his speed to find open passing lanes and create plays. That's why him and Jagr don't really work well together. I thought this was established after about the 15th game of the season.
his style is very different from Gomez. I am talking about pure skill. Nylander is a better passer, better skater (turns wise), better stickhandler, and a better shooter. he also has better one ice vision.

Gomez is a faster skater, better defensively.

and you are turning this argument completely around into something that it wasn't intended. The whole thing was our PP was better off w/ Nylander than Gomez, and that Nylander has more skill than Gomez. Not y Gomez and Jagr won't work which is obvious b/c Jagr plays the Euro style of puck possesion and good passing leading to good scoring chances, while Gomez plays that NA crap and chase style where hopefully if you have enough guys crash the net we might get a lucky bounce.

but look at Gomez's PP. They didn't really perform that great either. Gomez doesn't/can't skate around in a zone like Nylander did. he can't make as tight turns, and maintain the puck possession like Nylander. Nylander created 10x more scoring chances than Gomez b/c of his movement, and his accurate passing.
Nylander made that PP click w/ Jagr. Gomez didn't make any PP click w/ any of the players.

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05-20-2008, 10:42 AM
  #166
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It's funny, because all of you people won't bring in a guy like Jason Smith at 3 years 9 million (which I don't agree with either, but just using it as an example) but you'll bring back Jagr at 2 years 12 million guaranteed just for him to save it for March and April.
You're comparing a still borderline elite forward to a now borderline NHL defenseman who doesn't skate very well anymore and who has zero offense. Comparing them is ludicrous at any price.

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05-20-2008, 11:12 AM
  #167
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Nylander and Gomez are just different players. I don't think I'd say one was a passer than the other though. Nylander with Jagr played a puck possession game--getting players to chase him all over the ice--he was adept then at making plays against the grain. Gomez's game is more a speed game--he makes more plays off the rush. For whatever reason Jagr did not fit well with him--fit better with Dubinsky who plays a different kind of possession game--more like a power forward's game. It took Jagr sometime to get acclimated to that but towards the end of the season and in the playoffs he and Dubinsky had excellent chemistry.

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05-20-2008, 12:03 PM
  #168
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Also our PP have only become worse and worse the more we have adopted Shanahan's formula for success. Our PP was like 8th ranked last season when everyone complained a ton on it for not shooting enough. This season it was 22nd ranked...

Agreed 100% Ola. To have a successful PP you really need all 5 players working together as a cohesive unit. Our PP this year had 4 players playing puck possession and 1 guy standing in the slot waiting for someone to set his shot up which 9 times out of 10 ended up in the goalies chest. if you are gonna stand somewhere on the PP it has to be in front of the net. I think the subtraction of Shanny on our PP will actually help it.

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05-20-2008, 12:20 PM
  #169
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It's great that negotiations with Jagr are under way, and I like the idea of possibly getting Pitkanen, quesiton is...would Edmonton accept Backman?
Now that is just funny. Backman for Pitkanen. Maybe Backman +++

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05-20-2008, 12:36 PM
  #170
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I don't understand why Sather is going after Pitkanen. He was great for the Flyers in the 05-06 season but hasn't been the same since. I hope this isn't going to be our PP QB when there are defense out there like Streit, Campbell, Redden, etc; I'd take Pitkanen for Backman but I want a premiere defenseman on the team. No more Roszival's please.

Gomez is just a decent center. I don't understand the need to feel and defend him. Is he better than Nylander? Is Nylander better than him? They're both very comparable. I wouldn't say one is more talented than the other but they are awfully close. Nylander was definitely a better goal scorer and has better puck possession ability. They're equal in passing but Gomez is a much faster skater, gets the puck set up in the zone quicker, and is the guy you want to hand the puck to in regards to getting it in the other end. Let's be realisitic though, he isn't one of the better or premiere centers in the game. Lets go down the list;

Joe Thornton, Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Pavel Datsyuk, Vincent Lecavalier, Jason Spezza, Eric Staal, Ryan Getzlaf, Mats Sundin, Marc Savard, Mike Richards, Dan Briere, Brad Richards, Oli Jokinen, Paul Stastny, Rod Brindamour are all centers that I consider more able than him. Than look at emerging talents like Anze Kopitar, Johnathan Toews, Niklas Backstrom, Derek Roy etc; and other talents who just had an off year like Patrick Marleau. I'd place him in the class of Henrik Sedin, a great playmaking center but leaves a lot to be desired where other centers are equal in their playmaking ability but also score the goals that count. Gomez was 46th in goals scored amongst centers, 10th in assists among centers, and 21st in points. Not to mention 29th in face off percentage with just a decent 52%, so its not even like he is one of the premiere face off men in the NHL. We have one of the lower end premiere centers in the NHL. I'm a realist. Just because I'm a hardcore NYR fan and he had a decent year doesn't mean I'm instantly going to think he's better than all of the other better and more able centers out there. Look at all the talent out there. For the money we signed we could have had a Spezza, Lecavalier, Thornton type center for our money.

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05-20-2008, 12:53 PM
  #171
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Agreed 100% Ola. To have a successful PP you really need all 5 players working together as a cohesive unit. Our PP this year had 4 players playing puck possession and 1 guy standing in the slot waiting for someone to set his shot up which 9 times out of 10 ended up in the goalies chest. if you are gonna stand somewhere on the PP it has to be in front of the net. I think the subtraction of Shanny on our PP will actually help it.
I've never seen a PP with so much ralent have so little sucess.

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05-20-2008, 01:50 PM
  #172
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I've never seen a PP with so much ralent have so little sucess.
Pearn is the brilliant mind behind it. There's absolutely no reason to have so much talent yet so little production. Pearn needs to be held accountable.

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05-20-2008, 01:58 PM
  #173
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I don't understand why Sather is going after Pitkanen. He was great for the Flyers in the 05-06 season but hasn't been the same since. I hope this isn't going to be our PP QB when there are defense out there like Streit, Campbell, Redden, etc; I'd take Pitkanen for Backman but I want a premiere defenseman on the team. No more Roszival's please.

Gomez is just a decent center. I don't understand the need to feel and defend him. Is he better than Nylander? Is Nylander better than him? They're both very comparable. I wouldn't say one is more talented than the other but they are awfully close. Nylander was definitely a better goal scorer and has better puck possession ability. They're equal in passing but Gomez is a much faster skater, gets the puck set up in the zone quicker, and is the guy you want to hand the puck to in regards to getting it in the other end. Let's be realisitic though, he isn't one of the better or premiere centers in the game. Lets go down the list;

Joe Thornton, Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Pavel Datsyuk, Vincent Lecavalier, Jason Spezza, Eric Staal, Ryan Getzlaf, Mats Sundin, Marc Savard, Mike Richards, Dan Briere, Brad Richards, Oli Jokinen, Paul Stastny, Rod Brindamour are all centers that I consider more able than him. Than look at emerging talents like Anze Kopitar, Johnathan Toews, Niklas Backstrom, Derek Roy etc; and other talents who just had an off year like Patrick Marleau. I'd place him in the class of Henrik Sedin, a great playmaking center but leaves a lot to be desired where other centers are equal in their playmaking ability but also score the goals that count. Gomez was 46th in goals scored amongst centers, 10th in assists among centers, and 21st in points. Not to mention 29th in face off percentage with just a decent 52%, so its not even like he is one of the premiere face off men in the NHL. We have one of the lower end premiere centers in the NHL. I'm a realist. Just because I'm a hardcore NYR fan and he had a decent year doesn't mean I'm instantly going to think he's better than all of the other better and more able centers out there. Look at all the talent out there. For the money we signed we could have had a Spezza, Lecavalier, Thornton type center for our money.
No we couldn't. We paid what the market dictated. None of those other players hit FA status and two of them took hometown discounts to re-sign with their clubs. GM's know that Drury and Gomez are 2nd tier centers and were still offering them 7M. Imagine what a top tier center would get! There is no doubt in my mind that if/when Spezza, Vinny, or Joe hit the market they would easily command 8-9M.

We overpaid for them but we would have had to pay more to land a top tier guy. It's obviously worth it, but in the cap era, players are getting locked up long-term. We had to grab what was available. Look at what's available this summer. There aren't even any 2nd tier centers available.

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05-20-2008, 02:02 PM
  #174
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Pearn is the brilliant mind behind it. There's absolutely no reason to have so much talent yet so little production. Pearn needs to be held accountable.
I think it is ridiculous to think that Pearn is the sole reason the PP has failed. Like Renney sat there and watched the team self destruct on the PP but never said a word. Ultimately the head coach is responsible for these kinds of things. Im sorry, I doubt firing Pearn would do anything at all to change what the club does. Not as long as Renney is there to make the ultimate decisions.

And if in fact Renney did just sit there and let Pearn do his thing and never once tried to get involved, then not only should he be fired, but he should never work in hockey again as a head coach.

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05-20-2008, 02:29 PM
  #175
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Am I the only one who thinks that Brooks is an idiot?

I dont quite understand why he thinks that keeping Jagr means having to keep Straka and Rozsival? Jagr played the 2nd half of the season and into the playoffs with Dubinsky as his Center and often times Avery as the other wing...he also often did not always have Roszival as the D to play with his line. So that being said, I think that Jagr will learn to deal with Roszival and Straka being gone...just like he learned to deal with Nylander leaving. Jagr will still have Prucha to speak Czech to

So I believe we can get rid of Shany, Straka and Roszival and bring in a guy like Korpikoski, give Prucha more ice time and bring in Sanguinetti. I'd also let Mara go if we can get a guy like Orpik.

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