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Old
06-24-2008, 03:01 PM
  #201
mikedifr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I think this part is extremely overrated tbh. Going into next year, Kimmo, Coburn, Kukkonen, Parent, and Jones can all pass the puck at least at an average level. I mean, look at Detroit's bottom 4, they had Kronwall (average puckmover), Stuart (average), Lilja (average to below average), and Lebda (average).

The key for us and someone that wasn't worked on the entire year was improving gap control between the forwards and the d-man and breaking through the neutral zone as a unit instead of 2 separate entities.

If we ever have a coherent system, a lot of these problems are going to disappear.
I agree that the system is a big part of it as well, but I think you are underating Kronwall and Stuart just a bit. Stuart would be my choice for FA signing actually cause he brings some physical play as well. When I say better passing dmen, I actually mean from a mental aspect. Jones is a very good passer, unfortunately he is a complete dope most of the time. Detroit always made short, quick, perfect passes to each other to get out of the zone. Very smart plays, but I guess playing with someone like Lidstrom, you will learn a few things



Quote:
I'd ideally want the top-6 to consist of some combination of Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Gagne, and Lupul. Of course Giroux might not be ready for the minutes, but I personally think he will be and he was a great 2-way player in junior.

I personally would want Knuble as a 4th line player and PP specialist which might mean he's only out 11 mins per game.
My only concern with your top 6 is that someone is out of position, and they will get pushed around as the only size up there is Carter and he does not use it consistently.

I am fine with Knuble on the 4th line and the PP specialist, I have been saying that for a long time now, mainly cause I want to see Hartnell/Richards/Downie as the third line.


Quote:
I don't think Briere would be a defensive problem at wing. To be perfectly honest, being a good defensive winger is about working hard, that's mainly how Gagne has gotten to where he is. It's because Hitch made him work hard on defense.

Honestly, Recchi and LeClair were both lazy defensively, Briere works hard defensively which means I think it can work. I think Briere can play with either Richards or Carter although I might prefer Carter right now. Assuming Carter can become less-selfish with the puck, a Gagne-Carter-Briere line does have potential. I mean, you do have 2 triggermen there, but Carter is an above-average playmaker, it might work.
Gagne turned himself into a good defensive player, I dont think it is just about working hard, you do need some instincts. Briere's size hurts him really, he does give an effort most of the time.

Gagne Carter Briere would be interesting, but I disagree that Carter is an above-average playmaker, at least I dont think he has shown it to date. My only concern with that line is you are essentially putting your 3 best goal scorers on the same line. I assume Lupul plays with Richards on the 2nd which still gives you some firepower, but I rather spread the weath a little.


I
Quote:
personally have no problem with Knuble on the 4th line. He's just not good enough to play on an ES scoring line at this point. Top LW spot I am assuming goes to Gagne although I don't think this team has a definitive top line. Richards and Carter will both center our top lines, I don't see 1 group in our top 6 as being definitely better than the other right now assuming you don't totally stack one.

I think the Upshall-Carter connection is overrated, Upshall is a nice player, but his upside is a 20-20 agitator who might not be quite good enough for our 2nd line
Like I said above, I would like Knuble on the 4th line with more time given to Downie. I like Upshall and still think he is going to break out and can be a 25 goal 50 point guy if consistently played with a scoring line. He is also ideal for a third line, however, if that is where he ends up.

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06-24-2008, 04:51 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I agree that the system is a big part of it as well, but I think you are underating Kronwall and Stuart just a bit. Stuart would be my choice for FA signing actually cause he brings some physical play as well. When I say better passing dmen, I actually mean from a mental aspect. Jones is a very good passer, unfortunately he is a complete dope most of the time. Detroit always made short, quick, perfect passes to each other to get out of the zone. Very smart plays, but I guess playing with someone like Lidstrom, you will learn a few things
I'd say Kronwall and Stuart are both solid 2nd pairing guys, nothing too special, but solid 2nd pairing.

I wouldn't mind Stuart, but he might make 4 mill per year. I agree about the needed for smarter passing, it's a shame Jones is so dumb, he could be a very solid 2nd pairing if not for that.

And yeah, it's pretty much impossible to overestimate Lidstrom's impact on that entire blueline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
My only concern with your top 6 is that someone is out of position, and they will get pushed around as the only size up there is Carter and he does not use it consistently.

I am fine with Knuble on the 4th line and the PP specialist, I have been saying that for a long time now, mainly cause I want to see Hartnell/Richards/Downie as the third line.
I wouldn't mind seeing Lupul moved to left wing, it sets him up for a better release point anyways and his shot is his strength. Also, if size is an issue, we can always move Hartnell up one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
Gagne turned himself into a good defensive player, I dont think it is just about working hard, you do need some instincts. Briere's size hurts him really, he does give an effort most of the time.

Gagne Carter Briere would be interesting, but I disagree that Carter is an above-average playmaker, at least I dont think he has shown it to date. My only concern with that line is you are essentially putting your 3 best goal scorers on the same line. I assume Lupul plays with Richards on the 2nd which still gives you some firepower, but I rather spread the weath a little.
I think Briere has good puck instincts and anticipation anyways, assuming he adjusts to the offensive part of it, I think he'd be fine defensively.

The main issue I see is that I'd really want to keep Carter and Lupul separate. I guess you could try Lupul-Richards-Briere and then Gagne-Carter-Giroux assuming Giroux is ready for that.

Also, I think if you put Carter with a finisher and get him to be a little more unselfish, he'd be a good playmaker. I'm not saying he'll be Mats Sundin, but I'd compare him to Sundin in that Sundin is a great goalscorer, but also a good playmaker. Not saying Carter will ever reach those heights though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
Like I said above, I would like Knuble on the 4th line with more time given to Downie. I like Upshall and still think he is going to break out and can be a 25 goal 50 point guy if consistently played with a scoring line. He is also ideal for a third line, however, if that is where he ends up.
I personally would see a 25 goal 50 point season as a career year for Upshall, but it's still early in his career, so maybe he'll surprise me. At the very least though, he'll be a great 3rd line player.

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Old
06-24-2008, 05:13 PM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I hate Vasicek personally, just his on-ice personality.
I don't like Vasicek from his time with the Canes. I got to see him play several times, and he was so overrated. His rookie season was his best, after that he just looked like a tall lanky guy who didn't really do anything. I really hope the Flyers don't get him.

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06-24-2008, 09:40 PM
  #204
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Updated Number with Carter at 5 mil and including Giroux:

for this Lineup:

Gagne-Briere-Lupul
Hartnell-Richards-Downie
Upshall-Carter-Giroux
Cote-Thor-Knuble

Timonen-Coburn
Parent-Hatcher
Kukkonen-Jones
Eminger

Biron
Nitty

Red= No cap number yet.

Total so far =52,296,667
Estimated left to spend: 4, 003,333 million on at least 2 forwards and 2 D men. Definitly do able. Say Jones and Eminger each get 1.25 mil, and Cote/Thor get around 650 each, will leave us snugly under the cap.

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06-26-2008, 01:42 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'd say Kronwall and Stuart are both solid 2nd pairing guys, nothing too special, but solid 2nd pairing.

I wouldn't mind Stuart, but he might make 4 mill per year. I agree about the needed for smarter passing, it's a shame Jones is so dumb, he could be a very solid 2nd pairing if not for that.

And yeah, it's pretty much impossible to overestimate Lidstrom's impact on that entire blueline.
Thats exactly what they are, very good 2nd pairing dmen, exactly where they play in Detroit

I would be fine with $4 million per year for Stuart as long as we get the Stuart from San Jose, Boston and Detroit and not the one from LA.

I would definitely be excited with the following

Coburn Timonen
Stuart Parent
Hatch/Kukkonen Eminger

Quote:
I wouldn't mind seeing Lupul moved to left wing, it sets him up for a better release point anyways and his shot is his strength. Also, if size is an issue, we can always move Hartnell up one.

I think Briere has good puck instincts and anticipation anyways, assuming he adjusts to the offensive part of it, I think he'd be fine defensively.

The main issue I see is that I'd really want to keep Carter and Lupul separate. I guess you could try Lupul-Richards-Briere and then Gagne-Carter-Giroux assuming Giroux is ready for that.
Giroux is a good two way player so I would be opposed to him being on the third line with Upshall and a good two way center that isnt completely incompetent offensively. I feel his future is with Carter though.

If Briere is moving to the wing I rather see him with Carter than Richards. I rather have Richards line be more of a two way line and Briere's focus on offense.

Hartnell/Upshall Carter Briere
Gagne Richards Lupul
Upshall/Hartnell ????? Giroux/Knuble

My main problem in moving Briere to wing means either Knuble, Upshall or Giroux are on the 4th line and Downie is not even on the roster or Lupul has to be moved.

Quote:
Also, I think if you put Carter with a finisher and get him to be a little more unselfish, he'd be a good playmaker. I'm not saying he'll be Mats Sundin, but I'd compare him to Sundin in that Sundin is a great goalscorer, but also a good playmaker. Not saying Carter will ever reach those heights though.
The man has made some beautiful passes in his couple years, I just dont believe he thinks or will ever think like a playmaker. Joe Niewendyk is the best comparison in my opinion, a guy that was always more of a shooter and goal scorer from the center position.

Quote:
I personally would see a 25 goal 50 point season as a career year for Upshall, but it's still early in his career, so maybe he'll surprise me. At the very least though, he'll be a great 3rd line player.
It might be a little high of a projection but I think the potential is there. I think the key is to stay healthy. Either way we agree that he will be a great 3rd line player.

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06-26-2008, 01:44 PM
  #206
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56.7 is the cap, per tsn

edit: http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=241724&l...headlines_main

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06-26-2008, 02:03 PM
  #207
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56.7. I was expecting around 56. I guess with the release of the salary cap # we should hear something definite on Carter within a day or so. I would think defitely by the weekend.

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06-26-2008, 02:05 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
56.7. I was expecting around 56. I guess with the release of the salary cap # we should hear something definite on Carter within a day or so. I would think defitely by the weekend.
I also thought the 56.3 was solid. 56.7 = Much better!

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06-26-2008, 02:11 PM
  #209
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Sot it looks like we will have a little over 10mill to sign Carter,Eminger,Jones,Cote, and Niskala. I think we will sign Carter for around 5, Cote 600k area and Eminger for around 1mill maybe a little more. I also think Niskala will be signed and Jones will NOT. I think our defence is finished with additions. Part of the extra 3 mill will go for a 3rd line center. The small piece left over will stay in the bank for emergencys. Now if Hatcher retires we have a different ball game.

Timonen-Coburn
Hatcher-Parent
Eminger-Niskala

Unfortunately.

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06-26-2008, 02:28 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Yep. Carter's going to get paid this summer, so they're all going to be costing a lot for a "third line" player. Everyone just needs to get their heads around the idea of not labelling the lines and just realize we have three excellent centres - probably one of the best groups in the league. They will all see the ice, make an impact and hopefully earn their pay.
The problem with that is we will not have the quality wingers to go with these excellent centers. Downie as Carter's winger is not a good fit. Having a good mix of grit and skill can work on some level but until Downie learns how to skate he belongs nowhere near Carter. I think Downie should play on the "third line" with Upshall. Centering that line is anyones guess, should be an UFA. If one of Carter,Briere,Richards can play wing (Briere) that way is the way to go. I think Richards needs someone who is creative and can distribute the puck, which Giroux is from what people are saying.Briere can obviously dish the puck and could work well with Carter.

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06-26-2008, 02:38 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by King Fish View Post
The problem with that is we will not have the quality wingers to go with these excellent centers. Downie as Carter's winger is not a good fit. Having a good mix of grit and skill can work on some level but until Downie learns how to skate he belongs nowhere near Carter. I think Downie should play on the "third line" with Upshall. Centering that line is anyones guess, should be an UFA. If one of Carter,Briere,Richards can play wing (Briere) that way is the way to go. I think Richards needs someone who is creative and can distribute the puck, which Giroux is from what people are saying.Briere can obviously dish the puck and could work well with Carter.
First off I didnt see anyone projecting Downie with Carter, if anything I think Giroux would play with Carter. Second, I think Downie WOULD be a good fit with Carter if he got his skating up to Knuble's level. Knuble worked really well with Carter and I feel Downie would be even better because of his skills along the board and his passing ability would set up Carter for a lot of goals. Downie just needs to get his skating up to average and his hockey sense and skill will make up for his lack of speed. Upshall Carter Downie would actually be an interesting line in my opinion. Upshall in on the forecheck and keeps the puck along the boards...Downie comes in and battles, gets the puck out to Carter for a shot....SCORE!!

Richards is the distributor and creator on his line, he needs a finisher like Lupul on his line and another two way guy like Hartnell or Gagne. Giroux sounds like a guy that can work with anyone.

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06-26-2008, 02:43 PM
  #212
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we dont have enough wings to fit with them?????
Gagne, lupul, knuble, hartnell, upshall, giroux, downie, JvR, nodl, kempe, Maroon

I think we have the wings

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06-26-2008, 03:07 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
First off I didnt see anyone projecting Downie with Carter, if anything I think Giroux would play with Carter. Second, I think Downie WOULD be a good fit with Carter if he got his skating up to Knuble's level. Knuble worked really well with Carter and I feel Downie would be even better because of his skills along the board and his passing ability would set up Carter for a lot of goals. Downie just needs to get his skating up to average and his hockey sense and skill will make up for his lack of speed. Upshall Carter Downie would actually be an interesting line in my opinion. Upshall in on the forecheck and keeps the puck along the boards...Downie comes in and battles, gets the puck out to Carter for a shot....WIDE!!

Richards is the distributor and creator on his line, he needs a finisher like Lupul on his line and another two way guy like Hartnell or Gagne. Giroux sounds like a guy that can work with anyone.
Fixed.

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06-26-2008, 03:43 PM
  #214
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Fixed.
Last time I checked he did score 29 goals this past season

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06-26-2008, 03:44 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
we dont have enough wings to fit with them?????
Gagne, lupul, knuble, hartnell, upshall, giroux, downie, JvR, nodl, kempe, Maroon

I think we have the wings
If there is one thing this team has it is wings! Lots of them.

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Old
06-26-2008, 03:56 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
If there is one thing this team has it is wings! Lots of them.
Its like the flyers drank red bull or something. Sorry couldn't resist. Any way I hope Hatch retires, just because I want to see what Paul would do with around 6 mil to play with.

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06-26-2008, 03:57 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
If there is one thing this team has it is wings! Lots of them.

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06-26-2008, 04:01 PM
  #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Thats exactly what they are, very good 2nd pairing dmen, exactly where they play in Detroit

I would be fine with $4 million per year for Stuart as long as we get the Stuart from San Jose, Boston and Detroit and not the one from LA.

I would definitely be excited with the following

Coburn Timonen
Stuart Parent
Hatch/Kukkonen Eminger
I dunno about 4 mill, I guess maybe but I'd be very iffy. I guess with the cap going up 400K, maybe Holmgren can fit it, especially if it looks like it will go up more.

I don't think we have much of a chance at him anyways though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
Giroux is a good two way player so I would be opposed to him being on the third line with Upshall and a good two way center that isnt completely incompetent offensively. I feel his future is with Carter though.

If Briere is moving to the wing I rather see him with Carter than Richards. I rather have Richards line be more of a two way line and Briere's focus on offense.

Hartnell/Upshall Carter Briere
Gagne Richards Lupul
Upshall/Hartnell ????? Giroux/Knuble

My main problem in moving Briere to wing means either Knuble, Upshall or Giroux are on the 4th line and Downie is not even on the roster or Lupul has to be moved.
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Gagne-Richards-Lupul
Upshall-3rd C-Giroux
Knuble-Thoresen-Downie

Am I missing anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr
The man has made some beautiful passes in his couple years, I just dont believe he thinks or will ever think like a playmaker. Joe Niewendyk is the best comparison in my opinion, a guy that was always more of a shooter and goal scorer from the center position.
Nieuwendyk in his prime was a little before my time, but I get the impression that Carter could play a much more physically dominating game than Nieuwendyk did.

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06-26-2008, 04:16 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I dunno about 4 mill, I guess maybe but I'd be very iffy. I guess with the cap going up 400K, maybe Holmgren can fit it, especially if it looks like it will go up more.

I don't think we have much of a chance at him anyways though.



Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Gagne-Richards-Lupul
Upshall-3rd C-Giroux
Knuble-Thoresen-Downie

Am I missing anyone?
Cote I guess. No one major.

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06-26-2008, 04:42 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Cote I guess. No one major.
Yeah and he doesn't need to start every game, we'll certainly have injuries, so he'll get plenty of games.

Weird to see that lineup a bit I guess, what happened to Flyers hockey?

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06-26-2008, 09:44 PM
  #221
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well I guess Cote is in now- 650,000 per

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06-26-2008, 09:47 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
well I guess Cote is in now- 650,000 per
I've included him at 566,667 for now. Where did you hear 650?

Updated the cap numbers including 56.,7 as the cap and cote's speculated salary. Still over 9 million for Carter/Jones/Eminger/Thor/Niskala

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06-26-2008, 09:58 PM
  #223
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sorry about that you were right, my memory said 650 for some reason

3 years 1.7 mil

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06-27-2008, 07:12 AM
  #224
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So in the Carter thread the report is still 5mill for 3. And the rumors on Jones 1.3 and Cote 800k mean 7.1 of the estimated 9.6 and we still have Thoresen, Emminger, Niskala to sign. Man do we need Big Hatch to retire.

News I want to hear:
Derian Hatcher has decided to retire.
Flyers trade a player making 2.5 to 3 mil. for a 2009 late 1st early 2nd round pick.
Flyers sign Veteran UFA Center 'XXXXXX' for 3 to 4 mil

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06-27-2008, 10:27 AM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottymac223 View Post
So in the Carter thread the report is still 5mill for 3. And the rumors on Jones 1.3 and Cote 800k mean 7.1 of the estimated 9.6 and we still have Thoresen, Emminger, Niskala to sign. Man do we need Big Hatch to retire.

News I want to hear:
Derian Hatcher has decided to retire.
Flyers trade a player making 2.5 to 3 mil. for a 2009 late 1st early 2nd round pick.
Flyers sign Veteran UFA Center 'XXXXXX' for 3 to 4 mil
cote is 566,667
eminger will be 1-1.2
Thor- 1.3-1.4??
jones- 1.2-1.4 or gone


Your plan
Hatch retires- 3.5?mil freedup
Flyers trade Mike Knuble to teh Canucks for a 2009 2nd or 3rd( if thats what you want)
and I think we should sign a defenseman not a center so- Stuart 3 years 12 mil


Gagne- briere- hartnell
lupul- richards- downie
giroux- Carter- upshall
cote-thor- ???

Timmonen- Coburn
Stuart- Parent
Eminger- Jones
Kukkonen


I dont know if I would trade Knuble but w/e

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