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Flames-Pens Proposal

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Old
05-20-2008, 03:58 AM
  #26
T_Cage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stemps View Post
Thats a Flames fan OVERVALUING Phaneuf. Penguins hang up the phone.
A little, but not by much....

Malkin is more talented than Dion, no argument there....but an elite D-man is a harder position to fill that an elite centre

realistically, NEITHER team trades either player...but strictly value-wise i would view Phaneuf + a 2nd= Malkin as logical... #1 d-man in the league (probably top 5ish overall) vs #2 overall player (behind Ovie)

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:20 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
A little, but not by much....

Malkin is more talented than Dion, no argument there....but an elite D-man is a harder position to fill that an elite centre

realistically, NEITHER team trades either player...but strictly value-wise i would view Phaneuf + a 2nd= Malkin as logical... #1 d-man in the league (probably top 5ish overall) vs #2 overall player (behind Ovie)
No, it's not. When you're talking about players the calibre of Malkin and Phaneuf, both positions are very hard to fill. In fact, I'd argue there are more young d-men with similar future value to Phaneuf (look at this draft, for example) than there are young forwards with similar future value to Malkin.

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:37 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole435 View Post
Not that I'd want either clubs to do this, because I think these players are much too important to their teams to be traded, but would this be a fair trade value wise?

To Pitts
Phaneuf
Boyd
09 2nd

To Calgary
Malkin
Goligoski
Yeah i don't think so.

Malkin will be re-signed long term and i'd rather keep him and the defense we currently have than lose him and add Phaneuf.

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Old
05-20-2008, 05:04 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyug View Post
No, it's not. When you're talking about players the calibre of Malkin and Phaneuf, both positions are very hard to fill. In fact, I'd argue there are more young d-men with similar future value to Phaneuf (look at this draft, for example) than there are young forwards with similar future value to Malkin.
i'd have to say i disagree....i don't see any of this year's draft D-men becoming as good as Phaneuf, maybe Hedman when he comes, but i dunno.

an elite forward however? there are a few present and future...Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares, Toews, Crosby...maybe Stemkos, maybe Kovy.

So it might just be my take on it, but it looks like an elite d-man is hard to find, although i will concede there are plenty of "really good" ones on the horizon (like you said, just look at this year's draft)

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:14 AM
  #30
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Sutter was recently on the radio here in Calgary.

He was asked if top center is the most coveted position in the NHL, radio host gave example of many teams looking for that #1 centerman. Sutter answered that by saying good players can fill the void of that #1 centerman but top defenceman and top goalie are most coveted in his opinion.

So basically Sutter will not trade the Dion. Malkin was amazing this year, but Phaneuf was no crap too(Norris candidate). He took over some game all himself, that was with guys like Vandermeer and Eriksson as his partners. I can only imagine if he ad an actual top 4 defenceman playing with him. IMO thats the Flames biggest need, a top defenceman to play with the Dion.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:26 AM
  #31
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Doubt Calgary makes that trade, but value wise, it's not far off. You might have to make that 09 2nd a first. You know.. Pens and their draft picks.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:39 AM
  #32
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If I was the Pens, I'd make the deal.
You Pens fans can rag on it as much as you want. Phaneuf is a great talent to have behind your blueline. There' no arguements about future potentials in this, Johnson, Toews, Kane Etc don't factor in this at all. These are two solidified All Stars at a young age.
Some of you Pens fans have to realize that Malkin/Crosby are not the be-all-end-all of all star calibre players.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:59 AM
  #33
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IMO:

Ovehkin > Malkin > Crosby

A deal between Malkin and Phaneuf would make sense. But the Flames would have to add more than the original proposal.

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Old
05-20-2008, 10:11 AM
  #34
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Flames would outright pass due to contract. They've got Phaneuf long term for a reasonable 6.5 per year cap hit. Malkin hits the end of his contract next year and if he keeps performing the way he does, he's going to get more money then Crosby so he's going to be in the ballpark of 9 mil per year.

Plus, I think Sutter see's a generational blueliner as a bigger asset then a soon to be RFA but fantastic forward.

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:17 AM
  #35
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Top centers are what win the cup.

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:23 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
Top centers are what win the cup.
Ok so was I dreaming when Anaheim won the cup last year?

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:27 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluester View Post
Ok so was I dreaming when Anaheim won the cup last year?
No, i guess this just means Andy MacDonald is a top centre

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:38 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Pens defense is fine, have you seen it in the playoffs? we don't really need anything right now. Upgrade on defense would be nice but we aren't a team built the way Flames are. We can beat teams playing offense, we can shutdown teams playing defense, we can beat teams with our goalie alone. We can do it all. Pens defense has been doing pretty well, especially our team defense. We have one hell of a 2 way team. I'd love to see the defense full of Orpik bruisers though.
Compared to what, the teams you've played on the road to the cup? There is very little for shutdown guys in the East. Come Saturday, you'll understand the importance of All-Star calibre defense. But keep believing guys like Orpik are the answer.

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:42 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Someone hasn't seen Phaneuf play and obviously doesn't know about the Penguins' needs.
I didn't know teams in the Stanley Cup finals have needs....


sorry, I had to.

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:43 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Thank you for the laugh, I enjoyed it. You would have as good a chance of getting Crosby. Malkin and Crosby will be the best two players in the NHL. There really is not an offer that could get either.

You realize that neither will be the best as long as Ovechkin plays in the NHL, right?

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Old
05-20-2008, 11:51 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weownoctober View Post
You realize that neither will be the best as long as Ovechkin plays in the NHL, right?
I thought the trade proposal was with Calgary? Alright, if Ovechkin's in it now, let's talk.

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Old
05-20-2008, 12:14 PM
  #42
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For the #1 C (and top 3 players in the league) versus a #1 Norris-quality defender, I'd have to pick the #1 C.

To support that, let's see the past 20 Conn Smythe winners:

Goaltenders - 7
Centers - 7
Defenseman - 5
Wingers - 1

IMO, the order of importance is:

Franchise Goalie
Franchise Center
Franchise Defenseman
Franchise Winger

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Old
05-20-2008, 12:19 PM
  #43
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Not a chance.

Teams use various forms of the trap to compensate for the lack of defensive skill on their team. But you can't compensate for lack of offense without crippling your defense.

I don't follow the Western Conference during the regular season, but looking at the stats...Phaneuf played 27 minutes a game and Calgary still ranked 16th in the NHL on defense and 20th on the PK. The Penguins had Malkin (with Crosby out for much of the season) and ranked 7th in offense and 4th on the PP. Even without a defensive stud, the Penguins PK was just 0.4% behind Calgary.


Last edited by KenAF: 05-20-2008 at 01:50 PM.
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Old
05-20-2008, 12:23 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluester View Post
Ok so was I dreaming when Anaheim won the cup last year?

Dion Phaneuf did a really good job getting the Flames to the cup finals this year didn't he?

That's one instance, Anaheim was completely loaded on defense and offense. Someone made a chart of the teams top centers and top d-men who have one the cup. Most of the teams who have won it over the last 20 years won it with a lot of talent down the middle.

Could
Having a good defense is vital too, defense can shut down the opposition, but so can a good shut down center and other hard backchecking forwards (Staal, Hossa etc)

Malkin is just 21, is already a great offensive center who's physical and defensive game has not completely been realized. Phaneuf is one of the best defensemen in the league, but I don't think the Pens are as good of a team without Malkin. Staal can't provide what Malkin can on the 2nd line, and two wingers instantly get worse.

Malkin makes everyone around him better, Phaneuf doesn't.

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Old
05-20-2008, 12:48 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluester View Post
Ok so was I dreaming when Anaheim won the cup last year?
Carolina won the year before, Tampa the year before that.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:04 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damoose212001 View Post
I thought the trade proposal was with Calgary? Alright, if Ovechkin's in it now, let's talk.
Ha! Malkin for Ovy....Washington slams the phone down so fast Shero gets ear damage

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:10 PM
  #47
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Wasn't Phaneuf rated the most over-rated player in the league?

Based on votes from other players in the league.

I think something more even would be
Phaneuf-Backlund-1st08/Boyd-1st09

Malkin-3rd08

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:28 PM
  #48
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IMO, Crosby, Fleury and Malkin are the three core players that the Penguins will have to keep together for the future. Many trips to the finals (and Cup wins) are ahead, if the team managed that + forms a potent team around them.

As a Penguins fan, I wouldn't trade either of the three above, if I'm not forced to. This is not about the value of Phanuef, no, it's about the value that a guy like Malkin has to the Penguins.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:38 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
i'd have to say i disagree....i don't see any of this year's draft D-men becoming as good as Phaneuf, maybe Hedman when he comes, but i dunno.

an elite forward however? there are a few present and future...Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares, Toews, Crosby...maybe Stemkos, maybe Kovy.

So it might just be my take on it, but it looks like an elite d-man is hard to find, although i will concede there are plenty of "really good" ones on the horizon (like you said, just look at this year's draft)
For one, Stamkos hasn't played a game in the NHL yet. Lets not call him elite. Tavares is still a year out. We are really jumping the gun calling him elite. Toews has the strong possibility, but the injuries this year have slowed him down. I'm not going to pass judgement yet, eventhough he is a tremendous talent, I don't think we have enough yet to call him elite.

When it comes down to Ovechkin, he is in the top 3 in the league with Crosby and Malkin. I, however, believe you build a team inside out. Centers, goalie, defensemen, wingers. Most of the time, teams built around wingers have a hard time being successful because if paired with a pedestrian center, that top tier winger's production slips or isn't as good as it can be, and in turn the team usually slips (see: Hossa, Kovalchuk).

If you want to speak of Ovechkin's goal scoring prowess, Ovechkin's shooting percentage was 14.6%, Malkin was a 17.3%. Malkin was almost a 50 goal scorer from the center position, which I assure you doesn't happen very often these days. Couple that with the fact he set up his linemates equaly well, giving them both career years, which shows he can take any winger and make him into a primetime performer. Look at Jordan Staal last year. Malkin made him into a 29 goal scorer at 18 years old.

Phaneuf is a defensive stud, probably in the top 5 in the league, along with probably the most fun to watch. That being said, I'm still not parting with a franchise center who can take ordinary forwards and make them into all stars, and who also has the ability to take a game completely over at any point in time.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:42 PM
  #50
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Good luck with that one. That title will go to Erik Johnson in about a year or so.
Yeah RIGHT. Johnson didn't even half as good as Phanuefs rookie season.

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