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Flames-Pens Proposal

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Old
05-20-2008, 12:55 PM
  #51
T_Cage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post

If you want to speak of Ovechkin's goal scoring prowess, Ovechkin's shooting percentage was 14.6%, Malkin was a 17.3%.
That could mean little more than Malkin had more quality chances b/c he has a better team around him. I'm not coming right out and saying that's the case, cause i'd have to watch a ton of game footage to make that call, i'm merely saying throwing out a fancy number doesn't sway me

All i know is watching Ovy play is kinda like a man playing with boys. He makes plays that no one else can and single-handedly (ok, double-handed cause Huet deserves a little credit) pulled a crappy team into the playoffs and led the league in scoring. Think of how much damage he could do if he had TALENT around him (which is starting to happen, so i'm excited).

But anyways, this all comes down to personal preference, I know all you Pitt fans would NEVER trade Malkin, and I dont expect you to...the only point i interate in this thread is VALUE-wise Phaneuf is not that far off from Malkin, not "Pittsburgh would trade Malkin for Dion" cause they won't (nor would Calgary), but speaking strictly on value.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:05 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
i'd have to say i disagree....i don't see any of this year's draft D-men becoming as good as Phaneuf, maybe Hedman when he comes, but i dunno.
Nobody saw Phaneuf becoming as good as he has either. Nevertheless, a guy like Doughty absolutely has the potential to be as good as Phaneuf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
an elite forward however? there are a few present and future...Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares, Toews, Crosby...maybe Stemkos, maybe Kovy.
Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin and Pittsburgh has 2 of them. Please, don't do Toews, Stamkos or Kovy a disservice by comparing any of them to Malkin. That'd be like me comparing Dan Hamhuis to Phaneuf. Very good player but not in the same league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
So it might just be my take on it, but it looks like an elite d-man is hard to find, although i will concede there are plenty of "really good" ones on the horizon (like you said, just look at this year's draft)
Guys like Brent Burns and Shea Weber are much more comparable to Phaneuf than anybody, save Ovechkin and Crosby who are both better, are to Malkin.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:22 PM
  #53
T_Cage
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Originally Posted by fyug View Post

Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin and Pittsburgh has 2 of them. Please, don't do Toews, Stamkos or Kovy a disservice by comparing any of them to Malkin. That'd be like me comparing Dan Hamhuis to Phaneuf. Very good player but not in the same league.
well now we're just getting silly. Toews/Stamkos/Kovy may not be "elite", but they are clearly top-level players, and comparing them do Malkin is more apt than comparing the #1 d-man in the league to a #3 or 4-level d-man...

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Cole435 View Post
Not that I'd want either clubs to do this, because I think these players are much too important to their teams to be traded, but would this be a fair trade value wise?

To Pitts
Phaneuf
Boyd
09 2nd

To Calgary
Malkin
Goligoski
Crack is bad for you.

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Old
05-20-2008, 01:34 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFLB View Post
Wasn't Phaneuf rated the most over-rated player in the league?

Based on votes from other players in the league.

I think something more even would be
Phaneuf-Backlund-1st08/Boyd-1st09

Malkin-3rd08
I would say the crack is worse for you!

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Old
05-20-2008, 02:01 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
well now we're just getting silly. Toews/Stamkos/Kovy may not be "elite", but they are clearly top-level players, and comparing them do Malkin is more apt than comparing the #1 d-man in the league to a #3 or 4-level d-man...
Hamhuis is an excellent defenseman. Have you ever even seen him play? He's not a #3 or #4 by any stretch of the imagination.

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Old
05-20-2008, 03:12 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
well now we're just getting silly. Toews/Stamkos/Kovy may not be "elite", but they are clearly top-level players, and comparing them do Malkin is more apt than comparing the #1 d-man in the league to a #3 or 4-level d-man...
Lets not put guys in this conversation who haven't played in the NHL. We really have no idea what kind of pro they are going to be. There's alot of number 1 picks who just don't cut it.

And I agree with fyug...comparing Malkin to Toews is like comparing Phaneuf to one of Nashville's defensemen. Doesn't feel to nice does it? No, Suter, Weber, and Hamhuis are not Dion Phaneuf, but they can do everything he can, just not at the extent.

Jonathon Toews is not Evgeni Malkin, although Toews can do what Malkin does...just not to the extent. It's a valid comparison I feel.

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Old
05-20-2008, 03:28 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFLB View Post
Wasn't Phaneuf rated the most over-rated player in the league?

Based on votes from other players in the league.

I think something more even would be
Phaneuf-Backlund-1st08/Boyd-1st09

Malkin-3rd08
Or severely under rated on this board.

Worst proposal ever, Yes Malkin is a great player, yes he's a franchise forward, but he certainly doesn't have that much value over a franchise defenseman.

Malkin is over rated in this offer to stupid proportions.

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:02 PM
  #59
MikeFLB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch67 View Post
Or severely under rated on this board.

Worst proposal ever, Yes Malkin is a great player, yes he's a franchise forward, but he certainly doesn't have that much value over a franchise defenseman.

Malkin is over rated in this offer to stupid proportions.
Dion Phaneuf=Mike Greene with less skating and more hitting.

Malkin is a top 3 player in the league. And that is worth at least a #1 Defencemen, a top prospect, and two 1st round picks. I'm sorry if I don't see Phaneuf being a top defence men in the league if he can't play defence.

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:21 PM
  #60
CaptainCrunch67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeFLB View Post
Dion Phaneuf=Mike Greene with less skating and more hitting.

Malkin is a top 3 player in the league. And that is worth at least a #1 Defencemen, a top prospect, and two 1st round picks. I'm sorry if I don't see Phaneuf being a top defence men in the league if he can't play defence.

Wow, just wow, your unbelivable. Malkin has nowhere near that value compared to Phaneuf.

Comparing Phaneuf to Mike Greene is an absolute joke.

Besides your trade value of a top 3 player in the NHL being worth two draft picks a top prospect, and a number 1 defenseman pales especially when you consider that the #1 defenseman is a 22 year old franchise defenseman with a Norris nomination in his third year in the NHL.

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Old
05-20-2008, 04:52 PM
  #61
Randall Ritchey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cao View Post
Someone hasn't seen Phaneuf play and obviously doesn't know about the Penguins' needs.
I've seen Phanuef play quite a bit this year. He is a hell of a d-man. But no where close to Malkin level.

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Old
05-20-2008, 06:00 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch67 View Post
Wow, just wow, your unbelivable. Malkin has nowhere near that value compared to Phaneuf.

Comparing Phaneuf to Mike Greene is an absolute joke.
How is it a complete joke? I'm not saying Green is as good as Phaneuf, but I am curious why he is so much better since I don't follow the Western Conference.

In the NHL playoffs, both Green and Phaneuf had 3 goals and 4 assists.

Green vs. Phaneuf - 2007-2008 Regular Season
Code:
             Goals   Assists    Points    +/-    PIM   PPG   PPA   GWG    SP%   Ice time

Phaneuf     17       43         60       12     182    10     23      4       6.5     26:26
Green        18       38         56        6       62      8     15      4       7.7     23:38
Green vs. Phaneuf - 2007-2008 LAST 60 GAMES
Code:
             Goals   Assists    Points    +/-    PPG   PPA   GWG    Ice time

Phaneuf     13       35         48        8        8     18      4       >26:00
Green        15       34         49       14       7     14      4       >26:00
Phaneuf is 6'3 214lbs and Green is 6'2 201lbs. Green is six months younger and this was his first full NHL season.

Green didn't receive first line minutes until Bruce Boudreau took over in late November. Before Boudreau, Green was playing about 17 min / game. The last 3/4 of the season, Green and Phaneuf both played >26:00 min per game.

Phaneuf led all NHL defenseman in penalty minutes. Phaneuf had 60 minors and 10 majors, compared to 29 minors and 0 majors for Green. Green had about half as many tripping and hooking penalties. How many games did those extra penalties cost Calgary, who ranked 20th in PK?

Phaneuf had twice as many hits as Green, but both players had similar blocked shots and takeaways.

Green achieved his +/- stats playing with the NHL's third-worst goaltending at the trade deadline (3.02 GAA with .885 SV%). Calgary's Kiprusoff finished the season with a 2.69 GAA and .906 SV%.

In the recent IIHF Championship, Green led all defenseman in points with 4 goals and 8 assists in 9 games.

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Old
05-20-2008, 06:03 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenAF View Post
How is it a complete joke? I'm not saying Green is as good as Phaneuf, but I am curious why he is so much better since I don't follow the Western Conference.

In the NHL playoffs, both Green and Phaneuf had 3 goals and 4 assists.

Green vs. Phaneuf - 2007-2008 Regular Season
Code:
             Goals   Assists    Points    +/-    PIM   PPG   PPA   GWG    SP%   Ice time

Phaneuf     17       43         60       12     182    10     23      4       6.5     26:26
Green        18       38         56        6       62      8     15      4       7.7     23:38
Green vs. Phaneuf - 2007-2008 LAST 60 GAMES
Code:
             Goals   Assists    Points    +/-    PPG   PPA   GWG    Ice time

Phaneuf     13       35         48        8        8     18      4       >26:00
Green        15       34         49       14       7     14      4       >26:00
Phaneuf is 6'3 214lbs and Green is 6'2 201lbs. Green is six months younger and this was his first full NHL season.

Green didn't receive first line minutes until Bruce Boudreau took over in late November. Before Boudreau, Green was playing about 17 min / game. The last 3/4 of the season, Green and Phaneuf both played >26:00 min per game.

Phaneuf led all NHL defenseman in penalty minutes. Phaneuf had 60 minors and 10 majors, compared to 29 minors and 0 majors for Green. Green had about half as many tripping and hooking penalties. How many games did those extra penalties cost Calgary, who ranked 20th in PK?

Phaneuf had twice as many hits as Green, but both players had similar blocked shots and takeaways.

Green achieved his +/- stats playing with the NHL's third-worst goaltending at the trade deadline (3.02 GAA with .885 SV%). Calgary's Kiprusoff finished the season with a 2.69 GAA and .906 SV%.

In the recent IIHF Championship, Green led all defenseman in points with 4 goals and 8 assists in 9 games.
Solid.

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Old
05-20-2008, 06:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Thank you for the laugh, I enjoyed it. You would have as good a chance of getting Crosby. Malkin and Crosby will be the best two players in the NHL. There really is not an offer that could get either.
Heard of Ovechkin?

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Old
05-20-2008, 06:41 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by flyguy1234 View Post
Heard of Ovechkin?
Yeah, I think that I made it quite clear that in the future he will have to fight for third. He will be one of the Yzermans, Francis's or Messier's of the world to the Mario and Gretzky of this generation. But that is pretty good too so hopefully he can live with it.

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Old
05-20-2008, 06:48 PM
  #66
Armond White
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
That future Norris got Calgary no where. The Pens future top 3 forward got them into the playoffs, and has been the best player on the ice every series. I think you need to switch the greater than sign to a less than or equaled to.
I thought "future" implied, uh, "several years from now," not "let's look at what has already happened and pretend nothing will change." Also, you make that statement as if Phaneuf is the only player on Calgary and Malkin is the only player on Pittsburgh, when clearly Pittsburgh has much more talent to surround Malkin with.
(tangent, but Phaneuf was a big reason Calgary took then-contender San Jose to 7, so I wouldn't say he got them nowhere)

This is a nonsensical proposal that only makes each side believe that their star is the best. Have ye not heralded the golden trade proposal rule? The only acceptable trades for a fanbase are expendable players for a star. I call this the "Petr Prucha" maxim.

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Old
05-20-2008, 07:23 PM
  #67
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I swear people just post deals like this to start arguments. What does it matter if it's fair value-wise if neither team woul do it anyway? The Flames are happy to have the best yound D-man in the league, and the Pens are happy to have the best 1-2 punch in the league. Please people, stop posting trade offers for Malkin. It's unrealistic, starts bickering, and causes many fans to look foolish.

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Old
05-20-2008, 07:56 PM
  #68
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not a chance

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Old
05-20-2008, 08:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Cheektovanek View Post
I thought "future" implied, uh, "several years from now," not "let's look at what has already happened and pretend nothing will change." Also, you make that statement as if Phaneuf is the only player on Calgary and Malkin is the only player on Pittsburgh, when clearly Pittsburgh has much more talent to surround Malkin with.
(tangent, but Phaneuf was a big reason Calgary took then-contender San Jose to 7, so I wouldn't say he got them nowhere)

This is a nonsensical proposal that only makes each side believe that their star is the best. Have ye not heralded the golden trade proposal rule? The only acceptable trades for a fanbase are expendable players for a star. I call this the "Petr Prucha" maxim.
Never made a trade proposal there boss. I have been shutting it down and saying it's not good for either team, battling harder for the Pens due to where I reside, geographically speaking.

Reasoning I said that is because this whole thread we are putting Phaneuf on par with Malkin say that their values are very close. Calgary is a good team that just straight under acheived. That defense is stellar. They have a very good offense. Kiprusoff is supposedly a top 3 goaltender in this league. Phaneuf is surrounded by plenty of talent also. Malkin means more to the Pens than Phaneuf would. So I'd say its about time to /thread.


Last edited by JTG: 05-20-2008 at 08:30 PM.
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Old
05-20-2008, 08:42 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
well now we're just getting silly. Toews/Stamkos/Kovy may not be "elite", but they are clearly top-level players, and comparing them do Malkin is more apt than comparing the #1 d-man in the league to a #3 or 4-level d-man...
how can stamkos be a top-level player when he hasnt even been drafted yet. he is very good but people are extremely overrating him.

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Old
05-20-2008, 08:46 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Yeah, I think that I made it quite clear that in the future he will have to fight for third. He will be one of the Yzermans, Francis's or Messier's of the world to the Mario and Gretzky of this generation. But that is pretty good too so hopefully he can live with it.
Are you trying to imitate some of the other teams' fans in this thread? I hope that was sarcasm.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:08 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by fyug View Post
Are you trying to imitate some of the other teams' fans in this thread? I hope that was sarcasm.
welcome to penguin homerism... crosby/malkin are the best 2 ;layers in the world, letang is a future norris winner and staal is a 1st line center hiding on their 3rd line

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05-20-2008, 09:15 PM
  #73
Armond White
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Never made a trade proposal there boss.
I was referring to the initial proposal. I thought the fact that this is "Flames-Pens Proposal" along with the the break in my type would make it clear that I was reffering to an existing proposal and not a nonexistant one. Guess not.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:30 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Judge Sauer View Post
If I was the Pens, I'd make the deal.
You Pens fans can rag on it as much as you want. Phaneuf is a great talent to have behind your blueline. There' no arguements about future potentials in this, Johnson, Toews, Kane Etc don't factor in this at all. These are two solidified All Stars at a young age.
Some of you Pens fans have to realize that Malkin/Crosby are not the be-all-end-all of all star calibre players.
They are, however, the be-all and end-all of 21 and under Hart candidates in the NHL.

But doesn't matter. Every all-star is equal to every other all-star in value, I'm sure.

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Old
05-20-2008, 09:54 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by hattrick15 View Post
Neither team trades their future stars.
This is pretty much the bottom line. They're both so good, that if either Malkin or Phaneuf were to be traded, both teams would expect overpayment from the other side, which obviously wouldn't happen if it were the Pens and Flames dealing.

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