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Old
05-22-2008, 03:09 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
I hate people who think they are going to get Superstars for someone who is at best a star forward. This deal is to much for Jokinen 3 legitimate NHL roster players plus a 1st rounder in a deep draft. Some of you guys act like we are asking for mario or wayne but its just fricken jokinen people Give your head a shake its not going to happen. No gm is going to give florida that much for Jokinen. They are so blind too the fact that this deal makes florida a better team instantly. But are to DIM witted and ask for more. And this is only one thread of many that makes my blood boil. And after all this i have to ask DO YOU EVEN WATCH HOCKEY, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN STAR PLAYERS TRADED IN THE NHL? if so and you still think Jokinen should get you Horcoff, Hemsky, Gagner, Cogliano, you are just stupid. And after the worlds Florida is going to be lucky to get draft picks nevermind roster players. Jokinen was that bad.
...right.

Is it ever going to end, when other teams they can offer crap packages for other teams star players? Sure Olli isnt a AO, Crosby, Malkin, etc., but he is a 90 point player in this league that would be a 100 point player if he had some serious first liners on this team. But because he had a bad Worlds, he is only as valuable as draft picks. Have you even seen Panther games, or just the worlds? I would take Olli over Horcoff or Hemsky, but since they are much better than Olli in your eyes, I guess I dont know what Im talking about.

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05-22-2008, 03:09 PM
  #27
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I don't think it's that horrible of an offer. Torres and Smid could be quite useful not to mention a first round pick in a pretty deep draft.

How many years does jokinen have left on his contract? 2?

I'd consider the original deal, no doubt if I were the Panthers.

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05-22-2008, 03:20 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
I hate people who think they are going to get Superstars for someone who is at best a star forward.
IMO, Edmonton doesn't have a superstar. The Oilers star player is probably Ales Hemsky (HM: Horcoff.) Gagner is an emerging talent, but not a star, yet.

Quote:
This deal is to much for Jokinen 3 legitimate NHL roster players plus a 1st rounder in a deep draft. Some of you guys act like we are asking for mario or wayne but its just fricken jokinen people Give your head a shake its not going to happen. No gm is going to give florida that much for Jokinen. They are so blind too the fact that this deal makes florida a better team instantly.
None of these players (Torres, Stoll, Smid) comes close to level of an Olli Jokinen. Keep in mind that Florida gift wrapped Luongo and how much ex.GM Keenan hosed his club. This will not happen again.

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But are to DIM witted and ask for more. And this is only one thread of many that makes my blood boil. And after all this i have to ask DO YOU EVEN WATCH HOCKEY, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN STAR PLAYERS TRADED IN THE NHL?
Relax and chill out.

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05-22-2008, 03:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
...right.

Is it ever going to end, when other teams they can offer crap packages for other teams star players? Sure Olli isnt a AO, Crosby, Malkin, etc., but he is a 90 point player in this league that would be a 100 point player if he had some serious first liners on this team. But because he had a bad Worlds, he is only as valuable as draft picks. Have you even seen Panther games, or just the worlds? I would take Olli over Horcoff or Hemsky, but since they are much better than Olli in your eyes, I guess I dont know what Im talking about.
Then my question is, "have you ever seen an Oilers game?" Wayne Gretzky said Hemsky is the best playmaker in the game today. Joe Sakic said Hemsky is the best puckhandler in the game because everything he does he can do at full speed. Pretty good hockey minds making comments there if you ask me.

Are Oiler fans undervaluing Jokinen with original proposal, yes. Are you grossly undervaluing Hemsky with your statement, YES.

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05-22-2008, 03:44 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Safir View Post
IMO, Edmonton doesn't have a superstar. The Oilers star player is probably Ales Hemsky (HM: Horcoff.) Gagner is an emerging talent, but not a star, yet.



None of these players (Torres, Stoll, Smid) comes close to level of an Olli Jokinen. Keep in mind that Florida gift wrapped Luongo and how much ex.GM Keenan hosed his club. This will not happen again.



Relax and chill out.
Another DREAMER didnt even realize i was talking about guys like him asking for superstars. Edmonton doesnt have a superstar Wow you are smart you get the hf poster of the day reward.

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05-22-2008, 04:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
I guess you don't know what you are talking about. And if you think you are going to get anything more than 3 ROSTER PLAYERS PLUS A FIRST ROUNDER then you really do not know what you are talking about. I never said Hemsky or Horcoff was better so whats your point. FACT STAR PLAYERS DO NOT GET YOU THIS MUCH BACK EVER. Say if Hemsky was being traded for whatever stupid reason a GM trades a player. Do you actualy believe we could get Jokinen plus Horton plus a first rounder? Nope not a chance. And just to let you know i have seen Jokinen 3 times in person and watched my share of hockey games with him playing so get over yourself with stupid assumptions. In fact if i was Lowe i would not go after him at all he has issues in the head. Hate to tell you but welcome to reality DREAMER.
I read past the flaming in the first sentence. I read past the annoying all-caps in the second sentence, which was started with and. I kept going all the way to the point where you basically equated Jokinen and Horton to players of the same caliber as Stoll and Torres. Then I stopped.

This will probably queue up a response about how you never said Joks/Horton were the same as Stoll/Torres, but let me just say right now that I won't bother responding to that. That's the analogy you used, and it's not even vaguely accurate.

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05-22-2008, 04:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
...right.

Is it ever going to end, when other teams they can offer crap packages for other teams star players? Sure Olli isnt a AO, Crosby, Malkin, etc., but he is a 90 point player in this league that would be a 100 point player if he had some serious first liners on this team. But because he had a bad Worlds, he is only as valuable as draft picks. Have you even seen Panther games, or just the worlds? I would take Olli over Horcoff or Hemsky, but since they are much better than Olli in your eyes, I guess I dont know what Im talking about.
Well, I think youd be really surprised.

Florida does this in a heartbeat if the players fill roles on the team.

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05-22-2008, 04:23 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
Then my question is, "have you ever seen an Oilers game?" Wayne Gretzky said Hemsky is the best playmaker in the game today. Joe Sakic said Hemsky is the best puckhandler in the game because everything he does he can do at full speed. Pretty good hockey minds making comments there if you ask me.

Are Oiler fans undervaluing Jokinen with original proposal, yes. Are you grossly undervaluing Hemsky with your statement, YES.
You think I really care what Sakic and Gretzky have to say about anyone. The fact that you believe Hemsky is the best playmaker because Sakic said so really questions if I should respond. There are players that I, along with many others outside of Edmonton, would choose as a better "playmaker" than Hemsky. And Im not grossly undervaluing Hemsky, I just wouldnt take him in exchange for Olli because I dont see him improving the team more than Olli staying would. No disrespect the Ales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
I guess you don't know what you are talking about. And if you think you are going to get anything more than 3 ROSTER PLAYERS PLUS A FIRST ROUNDER then you really do not know what you are talking about. I never said Hemsky or Horcoff was better so whats your point. FACT STAR PLAYERS DO NOT GET YOU THIS MUCH BACK EVER. Say if Hemsky was being traded for whatever stupid reason a GM trades a player. Do you actualy believe we could get Jokinen plus Horton plus a first rounder? Nope not a chance. And just to let you know i have seen Jokinen 3 times in person and watched my share of hockey games with him playing so get over yourself with stupid assumptions. In fact if i was Lowe i would not go after him at all he has issues in the head. Hate to tell you but welcome to reality DREAMER.
Yea, I do think the Panthers can get more than 3 players that combined had less than what Olli produced. And we can say that Stoll or Torres had a bad season, but so did Olli. None of those three players would be improvements over what we have now. We are looking to win now, and get back into the playoffs. Moving Olli for those three has this team taking a step back, not forward, regardless they would be getting a late first rounder. And Im not a dreamer, Im a realist. And I know that few would actually think this trade makes the Panthers a better team.

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05-22-2008, 04:26 PM
  #34
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Analogy that i used hmmmmmmmmm. OK but you are right i am going to respond and please do as you Wrote and do not respond back. My analogy was about posters wanting star players for their star players if you been reading the thread you would know what i was talking about. Just put me on ignore if you can not understand thank you.

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05-22-2008, 04:32 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AM View Post
Well, I think youd be really surprised.

Florida does this in a heartbeat if the players fill roles on the team.
Fill what roles? This team doesnt need "roles" to be filled. They need a top line winger. Id rather keep Olli, and start the season with Matthias and Frolik on than team, than have those "role players" on this team instead of Olli. This team needs a player to compliment Olli, not one that replaces him. No disrespect to anyones team or players, but a top six of Olli, Olesz, Matthias, Booth, Weiss, and Horton is a lot better than our second line of Booth, Weiss, and Horton bumped up to first, along with a bunch of role players.

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05-22-2008, 04:41 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpDave View Post
Raffi Torres, Jaret Stoll, Ladislav Smid and ANA 1st 08

for

Olli Jokinen, and FLA 2nd 08





Why?


Edmonton receives:

top talent and all star Olli Jokinen


Florida receives:


Jaret Stoll who had an off year, but is still a great player to help rebuild a team around

Raffi Torres a potential power forward who had an off year as well, but has proven to be a great even strength performer and gives some much needed grit and toughness to Florida's lineup.

Ladislav Smid very good physical defensive prospect

and a late first round draft pick




Florida could then go after UFA Daymond Langkow, Brendon Morrison, or perhaps RFA Antoine Vermette.

After the trade Edmonton would have quite a few options with Olli in the lineup, and could even experiment with him on LW as well. Many believe there isn't any room for Olli sallarywise, however with the cap going up, and the importance of the center position, having Gagner, Horcoff, and Olli centering 3 lines, your pretty much garanteed to have 3-4 dangerous lines.



Edmonton Option 1

Penner-Jokinen-Hemsky
Nillson-Gagner-Cogliano
Moreau-Horcoff-Pisani
Glencross-Brodziak-Stortini

PB: Reasoner, Pouliot, Schremp

Edmonton Option 2

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
Nillson-Jokinen-Gagner
Moreau-Cogliano-Pisani
Glencross-Brodziak-Stortini

PB: Reasoner, Pouliot, Schremp

Edmonton Option 3

Jokinen-Horcoff-Hemsky
Nillson-Gagner-Cogliano
Penner-Reasoner/Pouliot-Pisani
Moreau-Brodziak-Stortini/Glencross (if resigned)



When will people learn that Quantity does not = Quality.If you want someone's else star player you better be willing to give back something in return not just 3rd line fillers.

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05-22-2008, 04:48 PM
  #37
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PB1300 I know what you are saying. if i already had Olli i would keep him to but its not up to us. The fact remains that its your GM thats causing all this by what he is telling the media. Its commen knowledge that he dangled him at the deadline but wanted to much and decided to wait for the off season to make a deal. There is trouble in paridise and your GM just got his contract extended. Hope you get what you want but history suggest otherwise. I also think your GM wants to make this his team and Olli is not a player he covets. Just telling you the truth.

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05-22-2008, 04:54 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by trapper View Post
When will people learn that Quantity does not = Quality.If you want someone's else star player you better be willing to give back something in return not just 3rd line fillers.
This is not some fantasy NHL we are talking about. I only remember one star for star trade ever happening Heatley for Hossa thats it thats all one trade and it was only cause it made sense at the time. Tell me one team that would trade a star for Jokinen?.Its not happening.

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05-22-2008, 04:59 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
This is not some fantasy NHL we are talking about. I only remember one star for star trade ever happening Heatley for Hossa thats it thats all one trade and it was only cause it made sense at the time. Tell me one team that would trade a star for Jokinen?.Its not happening.
I didn't say Flo would get back a star player. I just said you have to give back some fairly good value and what was offered is not fairly good value.Would you take Weiss,Olesz and a draft pick for Hemsky, same ideal

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05-22-2008, 05:01 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by trapper View Post
When will people learn that Quantity does not = Quality.If you want someone's else star player you better be willing to give back something in return not just 3rd line fillers.
Torres and Stoll started on Edmontons second line last year and are still young players.

Smid is 21YO and has been getting better every year.

Florida makes out like bandits in this trade, for 2 years of OJ, They get 3 RFA's and a 1st round draft pick.

The Florida GM could only hope.

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05-22-2008, 05:05 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
You think I really care what Sakic and Gretzky have to say about anyone. The fact that you believe Hemsky is the best playmaker because Sakic said so really questions if I should respond. There are players that I, along with many others outside of Edmonton, would choose as a better "playmaker" than Hemsky. And Im not grossly undervaluing Hemsky, I just wouldnt take him in exchange for Olli because I dont see him improving the team more than Olli staying would. No disrespect the Ales.
So are you actually saying you know more than the best player to ever play and a hall of famer?.

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05-22-2008, 05:09 PM
  #42
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The biggest problem with this proposal is it is so last year.

Last season the Oilers needs were a number one center, but now with the emergence of Horcoff and Gagner we are really deep at center.

The biggest need the oilers have right now is a sniper on the left wing.


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05-22-2008, 05:24 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by trapper View Post
I didn't say Flo would get back a star player. I just said you have to give back some fairly good value and what was offered is not fairly good value.Would you take Weiss,Olesz and a draft pick for Hemsky, same ideal
If Lowe had a beef or Hemsky was demanding a trade. Maybe throw in a blue chip Dmen then yes. I am not going to get silly and ask for someone of the same calliber. Which is purdy much impossible do you not realize that?. And Stoll, Torres, Smid and first rounder is good value. There young and have all proven to be NHL talent so i do not understand your issue and calling them third line fillers of all things get a grip you are out to lunch on this.

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05-22-2008, 05:25 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Chayos1 View Post
The biggest problem with this proposal is it is so last year.

Last season the Oilers needs were a number one center, but now with the emergence of Horcoff and Gagner we are really deep at center.

The biggest need the oilers have right now is a sniper on the left wing.
BANG ON. Enough said keep your fricken Jokinen.

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05-22-2008, 05:33 PM
  #45
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bottom line, edmonton doesn't NEED to make any trades

this is a proposal because i'm looking at our teams needs and how we can improve and this i thought, was a legitimate offer.

I personally feel Florida is a much better team with this trade, both Raffi and Stoll are very good players,

Stoll is a leader who had an off year, but make no mistake is very capeable first line pp, and pk, as well as 2nd to 3rd line duties.

Torres is a bull, when he's on his game he's exactly the type of player you want on your team....not to play against.

Smid is a potential 2-4 defenseman, has an edge and imo has more upside than some of our other D, i didn't include him as filler

and a late first in a deep draft is also good

Let's treat this for what it is, an internet message board, FAN PROPOSAL

nothing more....

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05-22-2008, 05:35 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AM View Post
Torres and Stoll started on Edmontons second line last year and are still young players.

Smid is 21YO and has been getting better every year.

Florida makes out like bandits in this trade, for 2 years of OJ, They get 3 RFA's and a 1st round draft pick.

The Florida GM could only hope.
Florida "makes out like bandits" in a deal in which they don't get one sure thing. Torres has had 20 goals in past but he was on pace for something like 10 goals before getting hurt. More and more, he is looking like a third line energy guy who is unlikey to ever score much more than 40 points.

Stoll is a fine two-way player but coming off a serious injury.

And, Smid, for all his potential, has stuggled.

These are all players that show up in proposal after proposal by EDM fans for a reason.

I personally don't think that Florida is going to move Olli J, but if they did, I could see them having an interest in guys like Horcroff, Gagner, etc.

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05-22-2008, 05:47 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by MikeFLB View Post
So are you actually saying you know more than the best player to ever play and a hall of famer?.
Im sorry, but in anywhere in my post do i say that I know more than them? Are you here to debate, or just to troll? There are better playmakers in this league than Hemsky, and I can guarantee it that most on this board would agree with that statement. It has nothing to do about me knowing more than them.

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05-22-2008, 05:53 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AM View Post
Torres and Stoll started on Edmontons second line last year and are still young players.

Smid is 21YO and has been getting better every year.

Florida makes out like bandits in this trade, for 2 years of OJ, They get 3 RFA's and a 1st round draft pick.

The Florida GM could only hope.
It doesnt matter how many RFAs they get, its a losing trade for the Panthers. Simple question to you...how does this trade improve the Panthers? If you watched any of our games and see what this team needs, then you wouldnt be able to answer it.

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05-22-2008, 05:59 PM
  #49
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Look at trades inthe last 5 years for superstar players (IMO Jokinen isn't even a superstar)...Florida would likely get even less then that package for jokinen

-What did Thornton get in return?
-How about Luongo..(tsk tsk Florida fans this should be fresh in your memory)
-What about the trade that sent Pronger to Edmonton? or even the one that sent him to ANA
-Brad Richards?
-Hossa?? a bunch of 3rd liners and a likely bust..hell they even shipped Dupis with Hossa who is better than any of the players Pits, shipped to the ATL

Even a few years back..
-like Selanne when he went from the Ducks to SJ
-Bure in 2001

just off the top of my head

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05-22-2008, 06:05 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimpDave View Post
bottom line, edmonton doesn't NEED to make any trades
Jokinen alone outscored all three players mentioned by 20 points (this season) and 8 eights (last season.) Jokinen doesn't have the health problems of Stoll or Torres, despite being older (body took more punishment,) playing a PF type of game (incl. fighting,) and outscored all of them in the last two years + he's a captain.

Sure Edmonton doesn't need Jokinen. Twenty additional points (from Jokinen) and you make the playoffs this season. Hey, Edmonton doesn't need the playoffs.

Quote:
this is a proposal because i'm looking at our teams needs and how we can improve and this i thought, was a legitimate offer.
Without Jokinen Florida doesn't stay in playoff contention for that long, they lose their best forward, #1 center and captain. Not to mention that Stoll, Smid and Torres almost make as much money as Jokinen.

Neither of those players or any of the remaining Panthers can step and fill the role of Olli Jokinen. It also sends out another bad message to the fans and STH. After being sexually abused in the Luongo give away, the team only get's a 2nd line center with injury problems, a good 3rd line power winger, a perspective Top4 Dman and a pick for their best player.

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