Given a choice of Torres or GlenX, I would never consider Torres. He does not fight, hardly hits (hard hits), and is invisible for stretches at a time.
The problem is that we already signed Torres so it is not a matter of "pick one"... We have to trade Torres first - if I were another GM, I would not take an injured, increasing salaried, highly paid 3rd liner unless a draft pick was thrown in as part of the package (& I had to give up nothing in return)...
Have fun watching some cocaine addict who wears tight leather pants. I guarantee you he will become shirtless by no latter than the half point of thier set.
He is a herion addict, who probalby does a lot of coke to, but get it straight lol
Absolutly amazing band, Scott is a ****** no doubt, but amazing group.
Yes, but thats just it, at this point that won't be much and with Glen X playing hard ball, it about equals out.
That still does not make sense for me. How do you know the return on Torres will be next to nothing? It might not be as bad as we think. Also despite the hard ball GlenX will still coming in at a fair bit lower salary than Torres. So I am not sure how that is about the same.
For the record Glencross had a 22.0% shooting percentage with the Oilers this year and Torres had a 5.7% shooting percentage.
I ask you, which one is sustainable over the long run?
Neither? Torres will come up a bit and Glencross will come down and they will probably meet somewhere around the same number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by okgooil
Thats exaclty it, Torres will score more, hands down.
Well you do not know that for sure but it could easily happen that way and is maybe even likely. But will Torres no longer be streaky, take the body every shift like Glencross and gain the speed that makes GlenX so effective on the forecheck?
It is probably worth mentioning on Raffi's side he has proven he can hang against tougher ES competition. Though if he ends up on the 4th line I am not sure he will be seeing comp that is all that tough anyway.
Do you want a one time 25+ goal underacheiving, inconsistent party boy making 2+ mil on your 3rd or 4th line or do you want a 25+ goal potential overacheiving crash and bang every night player making slightly less than 2+ mill on your 4th and possibly 3rd line?
For me that's an easy call. Its easier for a guy that brings it every night to reach his potential, even if he's overacheiving, than a player that doesn't (which is the same reason I'm not on the Pitkanen is the second coming bandwagon...).
If MacT hasn't figured him out yet than he's not going to ("Fire MacT so Torres will score 30 goals" believers please fire away).
Do you want a one time 25+ goal underacheiving, inconsistent party boy making 2+ mil on your 3rd or 4th line or do you want a 25+ goal potential overacheiving crash and bang every night player making slightly less than 2+ mill on your 4th and possibly 3rd line?
For me that's an easy call. Its easier for a guy that brings it every night to reach his potential, even if he's overacheiving, than a player that doesn't (which is the same reason I'm not on the Pitkanen is the second coming bandwagon...).
If MacT hasn't figured him out yet than he's not going to ("Fire MacT so Torres will score 30 goals" believers please fire away).
But why is Torres a garuntee to alwasy underacheive? Thats just it, I take the guy with the upside, power forwards tend to take longer, Torres is only 25.
Raffi can eat it already. dudes had so many chances to succeed and he just comes off as a complete joke on the ice. you guys are just looking at stats and nothing more. if you actually watch the REAL GAME on the ice without NUMBERS, Glencross absolutely destroys Torres night-in-and-night-out while playing limited minutes on a crappy line with STORTINI. dude was an absolute stud at holding the zone, forechecking hard and hitting fools hard.
i cant believe people are still tricked by Raffi's 27 goal year. "Pronger, slapshot from the point.. goal!...... goal!.... wait, if we watch the replay it KNICKED Raffi's glove. phew, add one to the pot." great, he got lucky. Glencross alone gets more quality chances on breakaways, broken plays and has a knack to finish better than Torres.
get rid of Torres already.
dudes going to be 27 starting next season and youre all still talking about "potential". give it a rest already.
ATTRIBUTES:
Torres = Physical play, energy, scoring touch, solid Even Strength play
Glencross = Physical play, speed, energy, moderate offense
WEAKNESSES:
Torres = Consistency in his game, long scoring droughts occur often
Glencross = Relatively unproven, 22% shooting percentage is not sustainable
SALARIES:
Torres = $2.25 MIL
Glencross = $1.5-2 MIL? (likely to be made this offseason)
Personally, I favour Glencross because of what he brings to the table overall compared to Torres. He's more likely to remain consistent with his physical play and energy while Raffi has shown time and time again to have serious issues with keeping his game at the same level. Raffi is now a bottom 6 winger as of the current depth chart, and he stands to make probably $0.5-0.75 MIL more than Curtis. I'd rather take my chances knowing that Glencross has some great chemistry with Brodziak and can give you some honest minutes than with Torres being a massive question mark every night.
But why is Torres a garuntee to alwasy underacheive? Thats just it, I take the guy with the upside, power forwards tend to take longer, Torres is only 25.
2008 - 1981 = 27, not 25
players with soul patches tend to look younger and get more excuses made for them than the usual player.
ATTRIBUTES:
Torres = Physical play, energy, scoring touch, solid Even Strength play
Glencross = Physical play, speed, energy, moderate offense
WEAKNESSES:
Torres = Consistency in his game, long scoring droughts occur often
Glencross = Relatively unproven, 22% shooting percentage is not sustainable
SALARIES:
Torres = $2.25 MIL
Glencross = $1.5-2 MIL? (likely to be made this offseason)
1) I don't believe for a second Torres will ever be a consistent top-six forward, especially on a team with so many better offensive players then himself.
2) Energy? Physical play? Scoring touch? We are talking about Raffi Torres right? He's had none of these things for more then a handful of games the last two years.
I take Glencross at $1.5 over Torres at $2.25, but I'm not the best person to ask. I want Raffi gone even if Glencross goes too.
But why is Torres a garuntee to alwasy underacheive? Thats just it, I take the guy with the upside, power forwards tend to take longer, Torres is only 25.
I'm just basing my opinion on what I've seen. Obviously, nothing is a guarantee. Who's to say Glencross doens't stop playing so hard when there isn't a contract on the line or if he's split up from Brodziak is he going to be as effective?
I still like him over Torres. I've gone sour on Torres because he could be so much better and just doesn't seem to care.
Who's to say Glencross doens't stop playing so hard when there isn't a contract on the line or if he's split up from Brodziak is he going to be as effective?
There's an interesting thought: What about Brodziak without Glencross? He wasn't the same player for the first 2/3rds of the year before Glencross that he was after.
There's an interesting thought: What about Brodziak without Glencross? He wasn't the same player for the first 2/3rds of the year before Glencross that he was after.
So not only is Glencross going to be a 27 goal, 20% shooter but he also makes the players around him better!?
Seriously, I didn't even think about that. Makes you wonder doens't it? The same could be said for Storts. that whole line because better once Glencross was added.
So not only is Glencross going to be a 27 goal, 20% shooter but he also makes the players around him better!?
Seriously, I didn't even think about that. Makes you wonder doens't it? The same could be said for Storts. that whole line because better once Glencross was added.
Mock me all you want, but Torres has only hurt the guys he has played with the last few years.
Glencross worked hard, played physical, and stood up for his teammates in the 26 games he was an Oiler last year. He also got some great bounces which resulted in a bunch of goals and an unreal shooting percentage. However, let's keep in mind that this was his 3rd team in 2 seasons. One that happened to be his home town team, and was probably his last chance at an NHL career. The whole team caught lightning in a bottle, and his line was no exception. There isn't a player on the planet who wouldn't play his heart out in a situation like that. Maybe he keeps that up over 82 games, and maybe he doesn't, but lets not get too caught up in what he was able to do in such a short span. Let's also not forget when you want to call Torres lazy and inconsistant, that he played the exact same way in his first 40 games as an Oiler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilerdiehard
Neither? Torres will come up a bit and Glencross will come down and they will probably meet somewhere around the same number.
Well, history tells us one thing about shooting percentage, and that is players generally shoot their average, or close to it, every year. When they have a season (or part of a season) where it's way off one way or another, it never stays that way. So counting on either player to sustain their shooting percentages over 25-30 game streatches this year is stupid. It just is.
Torres' sh% outside of this past season (32 games) is 13.3%
Glencross' sh% outside of this past run with the Oilers (26 games) is 9.9%
Odds are, that's right around where you'll see these guys next year, only Torres will be doing it against much better competition, and Glencross will be doing it mostly against other 4th lines.
__________________
If you are offended by this post, it's probably because you're ugly.
Raffi can eat it already. dudes had so many chances to succeed and he just comes off as a complete joke on the ice. you guys are just looking at stats and nothing more. if you actually watch the REAL GAME on the ice without NUMBERS, Glencross absolutely destroys Torres night-in-and-night-out while playing limited minutes on a crappy line with STORTINI. dude was an absolute stud at holding the zone, forechecking hard and hitting fools hard.
The problem there, is that the more time that passes since the last time we saw Torres play, the worse he gets in people's minds. He wasn't half as bad as people were saying when he was playing (he had absolute **** luck this year), and it's only gotten worse since then.
That's the problem with going just by what you see. Not only does everyone see things differently when it's happening, the farther away the events get, the more selective people's memories become. The numbers don't lie, nor do they change over time.
Also, Torres' first season as an Oiler, he played on the 4th line with George Laraque, and had a much better year than Glencross did this year. He also held the zone, forchecked, and hit everything in an opposing sweater. Only, he did it better, was 3 years younger, and scored 20 goals that year.
Glencross worked hard, played physical, and stood up for his teammates in the 26 games he was an Oiler last year. He also got some great bounces which resulted in a bunch of goals and an unreal shooting percentage. However, let's keep in mind that this was his 3rd team in 2 seasons. One that happened to be his home town team, and was probably his last chance at an NHL career. The whole team caught lightning in a bottle, and his line was no exception. There isn't a player on the planet who wouldn't play his heart out in a situation like that. Maybe he keeps that up over 82 games, and maybe he doesn't, but lets not get too caught up in what he was able to do in such a short span. Let's also not forget when you want to call Torres lazy and inconsistant, that he played the exact same way in his first 40 games as an Oiler.
Well, history tells us one thing about shooting percentage, and that is players generally shoot their average, or close to it, every year. When they have a season (or part of a season) where it's way off one way or another, it never stays that way. So counting on either player to sustain their shooting percentages over 25-30 game streatches this year is stupid. It just is.
Torres' sh% outside of this past season (32 games) is 13.3%
Glencross' sh% outside of this past run with the Oilers (26 games) is 9.9%
Odds are, that's right around where you'll see these guys next year, only Torres will be doing it against much better competition, and Glencross will be doing it mostly against other 4th lines.
As I said before it worth keep in mind the season before that GlenX finished over a PPG when he was traded. He had 19 goals in 29 games to finish off the year in the AHL. Then the next season he had 6 goals and 12 points in 36 games with the Blue Jackets. Actually 12 points for a 4th liner in an entire season is pretty normal total but not in 36 games. So as I said before I feel this hot streak (which got hotter in Edmonton) started long before he came to the Oil. He managed to do it as well on 3 different teams, 3 different coaches and countless different line mates.
No I do not believe he will keep up that percentage. But as I also said before I would pay him a little over 1M mostly based on everything he brought besides his offense last year. If he only gets 10 goals and still brings everything else every game that is good stuff and something we have been missing. His speed and reckless abandon on the forecheck flat out create havoc.
One of the reasons for Raffi's shooting percentage going dropping is easy to nail down. He started shooting a lot more and from far out. He does not have an accurate shot but in the past he usually only shot the puck from in close where your chances of missing the net are lot lower. 2 seasons ago he had 154 shots in 82 games and last season he had 87 shots in just 32 games. So Raffi's percentage will get better only if he stops shooting from so far out. Two of Raffi's weaknesses are his shot and he is not very great at giving or receiving a pass.
I already said Torres has proven to play better against tougher comp so no need to preach to the choir here. But I also said right now it looks like Torres could end up on the 4th line where he probably will not be seeing that tough of comp anyway.
That's the problem with going just by what you see. Not only does everyone see things differently when it's happening, the farther away the events get, the more selective people's memories become.
My memory may not be the greatest but I saw Torres play for the Edmonton Roadrunners during the lockout - I said at the time he was a bum - the Stanley Cup run made me start to reconsider my position.
Over the past two years, I have decided the Stanley Cup run was an anomaly - Torres is a bum.............
I have to disagree with the original poster. I never saw Glencross prior to him being traded to the Oilers. From the first game I saw him in an Oiler uniform, there was no quit in him. Unfortunately, the same can't be said about Raffi. I realize that at this point in time GlenX isn't as good as Torres talent wise, but GlenX seems to be the only one out of the two that knows he needs to bring his best game all the time. Maybe Raffi thinks he is a star now, and doesn't have to get his hands dirty. GlenX not only knows it(get his hands dirty), he helped this whole team change their attitude, and start to outwork, and outskate other teams. Thats one of the factors why this team had such a great second half. Its no coincidence that the whole team started to win after GlenX was an Oiler. I am not saying he is the only reason, mind you, but he was a contributer to the success. GlenX needs to be signed by the Oilers, IMHO. Torres, if he isn't going to start to work, needs to be moved to make room for players that will.
Our #1 talent almost gets his neck snapped while Raffi skates by looking for the puck - once the whistle is blown, Raffi puts his arm around Regehr's shoulder then invites him out for a beer (or something like that).
Raffi should have dropped the gloves & did what was needed to take Regehr out of the game (whether through penalties or off on a stretcher).
Raffi is a bum - Raffi should never ever be allowed to wear an Oiler uniform............
Would Torres be satisfied with play the role of a very solid depth guy? And if so, could he commit to his role knowing that his time in the Oilers top six could very well be limited?
He got himself into this position, so one could only hope that he gives himself to opportunity to regain his former status. In the event that we experience some "sophomore slump" it would be nice to be able to slot guys like Torres and Stoll into the top six as depth. I'm not sure we have that novelty with GX; he still has to prove himself sustainable.
Tough call indeed, there are just too many uncertainties at play here on both fronts. Ideally, the GX camp wises up and signs a reasonable short term salary to build some ground to be able to substantiate the numbers he is allegedly seeking, and we keep both. What are the chances of that happening.
There is some obvious chemistry with Brodziak and company, so one would hope that GX takes this opportunity to raise his stock. He runs the risk of getting the money he wants else where, and not coming anywhere near his value. On the other hand, he could very well be worth the numbers he is shooting for - on any team.
I'd have to say that the lesser gamble is Torres if we have to choose one or the other. He comes at a higher price tag, but at least have a dossier to go on. We know what his capabilities are and it's his future in the balance. Hopefully that is motivation enough to dispel the question marks that loom over his head.
At any rate, at least Klowe and company have left themselves with a few options.
