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Hossa would take less to stay in Pittsburgh

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06-07-2008, 12:18 PM
  #126
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by likea View Post

wow, do you have any idea what you are talking about. recent players who have taken a discount. some guys named Ovechkin, Iginla, Heatley, Thornton, Brodeur to just name a few.
As already mentioned - Ovechkin didn't take that much of a discount - his cap hit is to the north of $9 million (max contract at time of signing was $10 million).

Iginla is been on the Flames for a OVER a decade now - he has deep roots there.

Brodeur? see Iginla.

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06-07-2008, 12:29 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
Yep. And who says his chances of winning the Cup are better with Pitts than say with SJ.

He could have as much fun playing with Thornton as with Crosby-- while living in Cali and earning more money than he ever would in Pitts.

Pitts' fans argument that HOssa will gve a massive discount just to play with Crosby and have a chance at the Cup with the Pens does not hold any water...
I totally agree.

Hossa is 28 right now. He would have to be crazy to sign for anything less than 4 years. If I were him I'd be going for that 6-7 year contract.

At his age, with the playoffs he had this is his chance for the big contract. I seriously don't see him risking that. What if he gets injured next year? What if he just doesn't play as well?

Not only that he is one of the few major free agents out there this year. Will he ever enter a market so perfect for him again?

It's not just a business for Hossa, it is his life. This might be his only shot to get that contract that will set him for life. NHL careers are not long, who knows how long his will be.

Even if he does sign for 7 million (which is a huge discount for him), Pitts can't really afford to give him more than a 1 year contract if they want to retain Malkin and have decent depth through the team. What Pitts gave up to get Hossa was fairly substantial. Personally, I would have waited year before that move, but then again what guarantee is there taht a player like Hossa becomes available.

For those of you laughing at Fleury making 5-6 million, there is no way he signs for much less. My guess is bare minimum 4.5 and that would be because of a huge discount. Fleury put up elite numbers this post season. He was the only thing that stopped Detroit from running up the score each game and there are always teams looking for solid goal tenders.

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06-07-2008, 12:38 PM
  #128
Luigi Lemieux
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
Huh? Ovechkin signed the biggest deal in NHL history, his cap hit for the next 13 years is going be over 9 million dollars a year. That's not a "discount". He got market value which is being the highest paid player in the league. Sure, the contract will look better over time if the cap and salaries for elite players goes up.... but in today's terms it's not a discount.
the fact that the contract looks better over time is exactly why it's such a big discount. you can't just brush that aside like it's an insignificant footnote. 9.5 million for a player of ovechkin's caliber is going to be peanuts in 5-6 years the way the cap is rising. it's a little risky because i don't think insurance covers deals that long, but from a pure cap standpoint ovechkin's deal is incredible for the caps.

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06-07-2008, 12:42 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
Huh? Ovechkin signed the biggest deal in NHL history, his cap hit for the next 13 years is going be over 9 million dollars a year. That's not a "discount". He got market value which is being the highest paid player in the league. Sure, the contract will look better over time if the cap and salaries for elite players goes up.... but in today's terms it's not a discount.
The "today's terms" is part of the problem with your analysis when you determine that Ovechkin's contract isn't a discount. First off, he didn't demand league max, which he is worth. So even in today's dollars, he did give a discount, albeit small. The length of the contract makes it a huge discount over the length of his contract. He could have signed a 5 year contract at that money and then signed another 5 year contract afterwards for 500k under the max again. That second contract would be at a much higher dollar amount than it is now. Essentially he gave a discount, but the structure of it means that the bulk of the discount will not be realized until the future.

It could be argued that any player who's value is at league maximum that signs a multi-year deal, is essentially giving a discount because they do not get salary increases every time the cap goes up. The longer the deal, the higher the discount given.

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06-07-2008, 12:54 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
the fact that the contract looks better over time is exactly why it's such a big discount. you can't just brush that aside like it's an insignificant footnote. 9.5 million for a player of ovechkin's caliber is going to be peanuts in 5-6 years the way the cap is rising. it's a little risky because i don't think insurance covers deals that long, but from a pure cap standpoint ovechkin's deal is incredible for the caps.
Cap wont always rise every year. Not every team can have a cap like the Rangers.

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06-07-2008, 01:02 PM
  #131
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If they are still UFAs on July 1st, there is a very good possibility. I am sure all 3 will get some insane offers from teams trying to make a splash.
Right, I don't disagree, but that's a pretty huge "if."

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06-07-2008, 01:04 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Cap wont always rise every year. Not every team can have a cap like the Rangers.
Yup - and who is to say the cap won't go down? Combine a prolonged recession + big fall in the Canadian dollar = total revenues will likely take a hit (which directly affects the cap). This isn't an extreme possibility but a likely possible scenario. Team's can only rely on jacking up ticket prices for so long (see Red Wings).

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06-07-2008, 01:13 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
Huh? Ovechkin signed the biggest deal in NHL history, his cap hit for the next 13 years is going be over 9 million dollars a year. That's not a "discount". He got market value which is being the highest paid player in the league. Sure, the contract will look better over time if the cap and salaries for elite players goes up.... but in today's terms it's not a discount.

We'll have to see what happens with Hossa. After how Paul Kariya left Anaheim (telling the fans they would be back next year and telling Murray he'd take a pay cut to bring in other players), I have a hard time believing what any player says. I'm not calling Hossa a liar, but it's no sure thing he re-signs because of what he tells the media or the Pens website. Personally, I think the Pens would be better off re-signing Oprik and Malone while cutting Hossa loose. Crosby and Malkin will make other players around them better, they don't need a Hossa to put up big numbers. Signing Hossa to a big deal could hamper their depth in the future with Fleury, Malkin, and Staal getting big raises in the near future. I think it'd be more important to surround those players with quality depth. But I'm not the GM, just throwing my two cents in. It'll be interesting to see what the Pens do this offseason. They have a number of UFA's so their team could look very different next year depending on who they choose to keep around.

Tell me right now if Ovechkin became a RFA on July 1st of this year when the cap is going up he would only get an offer that equals 9 million a year.

NO WAY

Someone, maybe more than a few someones would of offered him the max which will be close to 11 million. I'm not even a Caps fan and i can see he took a discount.

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06-07-2008, 01:15 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
As already mentioned - Ovechkin didn't take that much of a discount - his cap hit is to the north of $9 million (max contract at time of signing was $10 million).

Iginla is been on the Flames for a OVER a decade now - he has deep roots there.

Brodeur? see Iginla.
Except that if he would of waited till july 1st of this year the max would be close to 11 million and he would of got offers for the max. hmmmm.....

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06-07-2008, 01:28 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by likea View Post
Except that if he would of waited till july 1st of this year the max would be close to 11 million and he would of got offers for the max. hmmmm.....
meh - difference of what? He'll now get less than $1.5 million off the max.

And you're forgetting - he signed a long-term contract (8 years).

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06-07-2008, 01:40 PM
  #136
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I guess it's just a difference of opinion then, my definition of discount must be different from others here. I still see the guy took the biggest contract ever given out and is the game's highest paid player like he should be. He's likely to be amongst the top 2 or 3 highest paid players for a while. I just don't think he left that much on the table.

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06-07-2008, 01:45 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Cap wont always rise every year. Not every team can have a cap like the Rangers.
the cap is pretty much guaranteed to go up every year. league revenues have gone up 15 years in a row.

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06-07-2008, 02:15 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
the cap is pretty much guaranteed to go up every year. league revenues have gone up 15 years in a row.
Has there been a recession in the past 15 years? I'm not talking about 'slowdowns' but a real recession (which where we might be heading giving the way gas prices are going).

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06-07-2008, 02:20 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
the cap is pretty much guaranteed to go up every year. league revenues have gone up 15 years in a row.
Yes but once teams can nolonger stay to the max i see them stopping the rise of the cap. Every team should be allowed to spend to the cap max, not just NYR or other very rich teams.

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06-07-2008, 02:39 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
the cap is pretty much guaranteed to go up every year. league revenues have gone up 15 years in a row.
League revenues are calculated in US dollars, but some of the most successful franchises earn the money in Canadian dollars. If the US dollar strengthens against the canuck buck, the cap can definitely go lower even without a nominal fall in revenues.

A part of the jump in the cap the last few years is due to the rising Canadian dollar.

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06-07-2008, 02:44 PM
  #141
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I see Hossa staying with Pittsburgh.

But I wonder how the "will take a discount" really works.

First scenario, Hossa (and his agent) set a price for himself, talk to Shero before July 1st, take 1 million less.

Second scenario, Hossa wait for July 1st (which he said he would), take the biggest offer, go talk to Shera and ask for 1 million less.

Major difference IMO.

Anyway, even Marian Hossa doesn't know where he will play next year. Last year, Brière in Montreal was a sure thing. His father said to the media his son would play for Montreal next year. Yet, things changed in a blink of an eye and he ended up in Philly. It's still fun to talk about it though

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06-07-2008, 02:45 PM
  #142
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No, but a superstar that never got to pick what team he wanted to play for might. Your argument is like me saying I think Jeff Carter will sign for cheap in Philly because he was recently quoted saying he wants to stay here. The only way Hossa stays in Pitt is a long term deal w/ a very slight paycut (at the expense of either Malkin or Staal ) or a one term deal. Both are very unlikely because as allready mentioned, Boston is going to throw the kitchen sink at him.
Hopefully. I expect Chiarelli to shed salary (Muzz, Schaefer, maybe even Fernandez) to either land Hossa, or Malone/Orpik if the Pens sign Hossa.

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06-07-2008, 02:48 PM
  #143
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I can see Hossa taking $7 mill per from Pittsburgh but no less. That is a discount because he'd probably get $8.5-$9 million on the open market.

Crosby said he'd take a discount too last year and people started saying he'd be willing to accept like $6 mill or $7 mill ... $8.7 mill is a discount, but it definitely isn't $6 mill.

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06-07-2008, 02:50 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
It is a "discount" is Shero uses Crosby's contract as the ceiling for all other cap numbers on the team. Harry Sinden used to do it with Ray Bourque and the Bruins...and if I were Shero I would basically tell all prospective UFA's on the team that if they wanted more money than Crosby, they'd have to play better than the captain..
That continuously set the Bruins back. Not a good system if you ask me. I'm thankful that Sinden no longer has power in the B's organization.

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06-07-2008, 05:51 PM
  #145
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If Pittsburgh can dump Ryan Whitney, I think they have a shot at re-signing both Orpik and Hossa. Personally I think Orpik is just as, if not more, valuable to that team than Hossa is.

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06-07-2008, 06:37 PM
  #146
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Could the Pens not end up like the Bolts with too much money tied up in only a few players? I think there needs to be a little balance within the team when it comes to the salaries.

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06-07-2008, 06:42 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by loadie View Post
Could the Pens not end up like the Bolts with too much money tied up in only a few players? I think there needs to be a little balance within the team when it comes to the salaries.
The Pens have committed to spend to the cap next season, so they're already not like the Bolts. Tampa still had plenty of cap space to fix their team up, they just refused to do so.

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06-07-2008, 06:59 PM
  #148
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The Pens have committed to spend to the cap next season, so they're already not like the Bolts. Tampa still had plenty of cap space to fix their team up, they just refused to do so.
what? They had half of their space tied up in 3 players at their worst. The Pens will either be in trouble, or lose players. If they are smart they will not resign Hossa. They can use that money to make a playoff team like DET. Malkin and Crosby are going to be better next year. You dont need a 3rd superstar, you need other players that can contribute.

Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fluery, Hossa- all could get the max or a little less(Fluery) on the open market. Im not sure that a guy like Staal wants to be a third line player making half his potential with the Pens.

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06-07-2008, 07:11 PM
  #149
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Could the Pens not end up like the Bolts with too much money tied up in only a few players? I think there needs to be a little balance within the team when it comes to the salaries.
This again? Really?

Many teams have lots of money in 3 or so players, see Ottawa, Detroit, Tampa, and soon Pittsburgh and something similar about all those teams they have either won a cup or been to the cup finals in the past few years, there is a right way to tie up major money in several players and a wrong way.

Tampa was unfortunate as the lockout really screwed us over almost all the players were still under contract then suddenly it was a choice between Marty and the Bulin wall. But they also didnt spend to the cap, which the Penguins ownership have stated they are willing to do, but time will tell i guess.

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06-07-2008, 07:41 PM
  #150
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This again? Really?

Many teams have lots of money in 3 or so players, see Ottawa, Detroit, Tampa, and soon Pittsburgh and something similar about all those teams they have either won a cup or been to the cup finals in the past few years, there is a right way to tie up major money in several players and a wrong way.

Tampa was unfortunate as the lockout really screwed us over almost all the players were still under contract then suddenly it was a choice between Marty and the Bulin wall. But they also didnt spend to the cap, which the Penguins ownership have stated they are willing to do, but time will tell i guess.
I'm scratching my head on your post.

Ottawa's big three: Alfredsson, Heatley, Spezza. Combined cap hit of 12 million.

Detroits big three: Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterberg. Combined cap hit of 16 million.

Pens big three: Crosby, Malkin, Hossa. Projected combined cap hit of 25 million. Big difference.

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