HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Top 10 European defensemen

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-28-2011, 11:36 PM
  #51
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 13,773
vCash: 500
Coaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Again, when the two were in NJ, Kasatonov was better. Maybe his simple game made it easier to adapt. Fetisov had staying power, but really wasn't an effective defenseman in the NHL until Bowman really started incorporating European elements into his system in Detroit
Comes down to coaching. Schoenfeld, Cunniff, McVie far from elite coaches. Brooks never mastered the NHL coaching against the Soviets is not the same as coaching Soviets.

The Devils from the era never had stability and a number of their players underperformed mainly due to constantly changing roles within systems that were poorly suited for the NHL of the era.

It is one thing to compare players within a team that is struggling to make the playoffs as the Devils were 1989-93 and another to project how he would look on a Stanley Cup contender. Yet watching them play you could see how Fetisov would be a valuable veteran on a team that was an SC contender. With Kasatonov you did not see such attributes.

Addition. Prime example would be Larry Murphy. Valuable in Pittsburgh and Detroit but in between unappreciated in Toronto.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 05-28-2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Addition
Canadiens1958 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 04:24 AM
  #52
jkrx
Registered User
 
jkrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,337
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Kasatonov was better than Fetisov in NJ. For whatever reason, Fetisov really struggled to adjust.
Maybe so but Fetisovs problem was that he felt alone and homesick and the Devils tried to solve it by bringing in Kasatonov. A player Fetisov hated.

jkrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 10:16 AM
  #53
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,777
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i didn't see much, if anything, of the devils pre-stevens. in what ways was kasatonov better?

as a canucks fan, i saw larionov and krutov, and i saw my share of makarov because we played calgary a lot. but all i remember hearing was the standard "all the russians except makarov are disappointments." never any comparison of kasatonov with fetisov.

i remember later on kasatonov had a brief but passable stint as a PMD on the pre-kariya ducks.
Sports Illustrated grading the Soviets halfway through 89-90.:
Quote:
Fetisov: C—. As he holds on to the puck, waiting to begin the attack with a drop pass, the rest of the Devils head up-ice, leaving him alone to get creamed by a forechecker. Fetisov, who was not intimidated by a fistic beating administered by the Toronto Maple Leafs' Wendel Clark earlier in the season, rolls off checks nicely and threads outlet passes that 90% of NHL players make only in their dreams. But it may take more years than he has left as a player to get him to jump up into the play and put his wonderful offensive skills to work. On the power play, in which he figured to be deadly, he looks like a mannequin, standing idly by while his roommate, Bruce Driver, runs the offense from the point.

Defenseman Sergei Starikov came to New Jersey to keep Fetisov company but spent the summer power-eating his way from 212 pounds to 235. Starikov, 31, who was sent to the Devils' farm team in Utica, N.Y., on Dec. 26, merits a D—for his time with New Jersey. He was replaced by Kasatonov, Fetisov's longtime defensive partner with the Red Army and national teams. Kasatonov played superbly in his debut against the Sabres on Jan. 4—give him an I for incomplete—but he and Fetisov don't get along. When Fetisov and Larionov threatened strikes against tyrannical Soviet coach Viktor Tikhonov last year, thereby winning the right from the Soviet federation to finish their careers in North America, Kasatonov stayed loyal to his mentor and thus left the others exposed to criticism. "I'm not happy," says Fetisov of Kasatonov's signing. "The situation with the team may be tense."
From the Hockey News after the 89-90 season (sorry, no link):
Quote:
Kasatonov, who joined the New Jersey Devils Jan. 2, finished the regular season as their best defenseman. He adjusted faster than Fetisov and Starikov and exhibited a higher skill level.

Kasatonov was 6-15-21 and plus 15 in 39 games this season. He will report to training camp next fall as the team's number 1 defenseman.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 10:35 AM
  #54
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,326
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
I think after 2 years is clear that Chara is in TOP10 of Euro D's and not in the very bottom of the list.

Zubov, in his prime, was a top 5 d-man of his time.I really dont know how can be Konstantinov regarded better than Zubov , I even dont know how he can be in TOP 10.
His career was short and when we consider what he did instead of what he might do... Well, to me he is around 20th place.

Agreed with part Zubov over Kasatonov.
You're basing your argument on what they did in the NHL though. The majority of both Fetisov's and Konstantinov's primes were before they came over and IMO BOTH should be ranked higher than Zubov.

I would have Salming and Konstantinov neck and neck for #3 and #4

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 12:16 PM
  #55
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You're basing your argument on what they did in the NHL though. The majority of both Fetisov's and Konstantinov's primes were before they came over and IMO BOTH should be ranked higher than Zubov.

I would have Salming and Konstantinov neck and neck for #3 and #4
Konstantinov was 24 when he came to North America. He had a couple of good years playing in a depleted USSR league beforehand, but most of his prime and career was in North America.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 12:48 PM
  #56
vadim sharifijanov
thanks chris
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Konstantinov was 24 when he came to North America. He had a couple of good years playing in a depleted USSR league beforehand, but most of his prime and career was in North America.
judging from context, i think he meant kasatonov.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 03:28 PM
  #57
Tillman40
Bo Knows Bo
 
Tillman40's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 888
vCash: 500
While I think he is more of a top twenty when it comes to top European defenseman I think Reijo Ruotsalainen deserves some consideration.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reijo_Ruotsalainen


Last edited by Tillman40: 05-29-2011 at 03:35 PM.
Tillman40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 03:33 PM
  #58
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
judging from context, i think he meant kasatonov.
Oh oops maybe. I think 4th is still a little high for Kasatonov, but it's not crazy high.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 04:08 PM
  #59
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,134
vCash: 500
Many of the most underrated defensemen in today's NHL are European:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

All greater than the aforementioned Teppo Numminen, Oleg Tverdovsky and Roman Hamrlik, each having a shot at Top-10 all-time status some day.

My personal favorite European defensemen are Jyrki Lumme, Niklas Kronwall and Dmitri Yushkevich.

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 04:33 PM
  #60
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,326
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
judging from context, i think he meant kasatonov.

Yeah, I did, my bad.
Not the first time I have used the one's name for the other either and prolly won't be the last heh

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-29-2011, 10:26 PM
  #61
The Right Price
Registered User
 
The Right Price's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,116
vCash: 500
Teppo Numminen

The Right Price is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 01:55 AM
  #62
tikkanen5rings*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: in your head!
Posts: 11,686
vCash: 500
Obviously Reijo Ruotsalain belongs in top 10.

tikkanen5rings* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 01:57 AM
  #63
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Many of the most underrated defensemen in today's NHL are European:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

All greater than the aforementioned Teppo Numminen, Oleg Tverdovsky and Roman Hamrlik, each having a shot at Top-10 all-time status some day.

My personal favorite European defensemen are Jyrki Lumme, Niklas Kronwall and Dmitri Yushkevich.
I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly... did you just say that:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

... are better than Teppo Numminen?

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 02:33 AM
  #64
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly... did you just say that:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

... are better than Teppo Numminen?
Well timonen and vishnovsky peaked higher, but.... Mezsaros? Rozsival?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 03:30 AM
  #65
RorschachWJK
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuusamo
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,646
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well timonen and vishnovsky peaked higher, but.... Mezsaros? Rozsival?
And Enström? I mean the guy is a good player but has only played just over 300 games...maybe after at least five more years if he keeps it up.

RorschachWJK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 06:04 AM
  #66
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,126
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tikkanen5rings View Post
Obviously Reijo Ruotsalain belongs in top 10.
Visnovsky and Ruotsalain belong into club "team leader in points" along with Tarnstrom and Zubov. I dont how much consideration is this club worthy, but definetly there arent many defensmen who did it even from NA-born D's.

As I read this topic Konstantinov seems really really overrated to me. He was like better Volchenkov, his last 2 seasons are impressive but what he actually did he is TOP 10 all time??? 2nd AST, 1 SC (I dont count his second) and impressive +/- rating....

I would like to hear arguments for him.

//: HM to Robert Svehla. SVEHLA OR VISNOVSKY
Visnovsky is mentioned in this thread a little bit, but Svehla was arguably better. Hasek have said Chelios and Svehla were best defensmen of his generation....


Last edited by begbeee: 05-30-2011 at 06:11 AM.
begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 07:51 AM
  #67
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 19,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly... did you just say that:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

... are better than Teppo Numminen?
Or that the bottom 4 guys are better than Roman Hamrlik?

Or that Numminen and Tverdovsky are at a comparable level?

Or that Rozsival, Meszaros, or Michalek had a chance to be top-10 all-time European defenders?

Poor Numminen ... so under-rated his whole career, then finally gets a bit of the respect he deserves right at the end of his time in Phoenix, but then as soon as he retires everyone forgets how good he was again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee
As I read this topic Konstantinov seems really really overrated to me. He was like better Volchenkov, his last 2 seasons are impressive but what he actually did he is TOP 10 all time??? 2nd AST, 1 SC (I dont count his second) and impressive +/- rating....

I would like to hear arguments for him.
Konstantinov was basically a Russian Adam Foote only more durable. The two players were nearly identical in terms of style, defensive play, and offensive ability. Konstantinov was a bit more devastating bodychecker.

He was definitely quite a bit better than a guy like Volchenkov, but has gotten quite over-rated due to the tragic circumstances which befell him.

Outstanding player, but when you see him being rated ahead of Chara all time ... people are letting nostalgia get the better of themselves.

MS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 09:43 AM
  #68
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 10,922
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Many of the most underrated defensemen in today's NHL are European:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

All greater than the aforementioned Teppo Numminen, Oleg Tverdovsky and Roman Hamrlik, each having a shot at Top-10 all-time status some day.

My personal favorite European defensemen are Jyrki Lumme, Niklas Kronwall and Dmitri Yushkevich.
Add current underrated Dmen Daniel Seidenberg & Toni Lydman.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 10:59 AM
  #69
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,134
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I just want to make sure I am understanding you properly... did you just say that:

Lubomir Visnovsky
Kimmo Timonen
Michal Rozsival
Tobias Enstrom
Andrej Meszaros
Zbynek Michalek

... are better than Teppo Numminen?
Please. You know full well there is a difference between peak versus career versus overall value, all things considered. OBVIOUSLY, Numminen has had a longer career. But Visnovsky and Timonen I am 100% are both more talented and have played better, their peaks better already. And, to a lesser extent, Michalek and Enstrom have been great since day one, really underrated. Do I think one of them could become Top-10 all-time in terms of European dmen? Yes.

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 12:04 PM
  #70
vadim sharifijanov
thanks chris
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,556
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Add current underrated Dmen Daniel Seidenberg & Toni Lydman.
i would add henrik tallinder and sami salo. well, the sami salo from before the latest injury.

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 12:06 PM
  #71
duga
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Zuerich
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tillman40 View Post
While I think he is more of a top twenty when it comes to top European defenseman I think Reijo Ruotsalainen deserves some consideration.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reijo_Ruotsalainen
I was lucky enough to see him play several times live while he played in Switzerland. People said his backwards skating was faster than any swiss player could skate forward.

and another forgotten D from Finland... Pekka Rautakallio,
at least deserves an HM. wasn't he like the first finish D in the NHL, and All-star as well?

duga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 01:33 PM
  #72
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Duplicate post

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 01:35 PM
  #73
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 45,407
vCash: 500
Since lists are fun:

1. Lidstrom
2. Fetisov
3. Salming
4. Vasiliev
5. Chara
6. Suchy
7. Kasatonov
8. Ragulin
9. Pospisil
10. Lutchenko

HM: Zubov, Gonchar, Svedberg, Davydov

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-30-2011, 10:40 PM
  #74
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 28,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Please. You know full well there is a difference between peak versus career versus overall value, all things considered. OBVIOUSLY, Numminen has had a longer career. But Visnovsky and Timonen I am 100% are both more talented and have played better, their peaks better already. And, to a lesser extent, Michalek and Enstrom have been great since day one, really underrated. Do I think one of them could become Top-10 all-time in terms of European dmen? Yes.
Timonen is pretty close to Numminen at this time. I don't have a problem with someone saying he's better. Visnovsky is an offensive specialist and doesn't help a team like Numminen could. The others, well, they have a really long way to go.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2011, 12:43 AM
  #75
MS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 19,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Please. You know full well there is a difference between peak versus career versus overall value, all things considered. OBVIOUSLY, Numminen has had a longer career. But Visnovsky and Timonen I am 100% are both more talented and have played better, their peaks better already. And, to a lesser extent, Michalek and Enstrom have been great since day one, really underrated. Do I think one of them could become Top-10 all-time in terms of European dmen? Yes.

The way you're under-rating Numminen is mindblowing.

Numminen has at least as high a peak as Timonen - wash offensively and Numminen was better defensively - and played at that level for much longer.

Visnovsky is better on the PP ... but Numminen absolutely destroys him defensively. Visnovsky has never even been one of the top 4 PK defenders on his own team. Numminen was a worlds better PK/ES player.

The other 4 guys aren't even on the same planet. To compare Michalek or Roszival to Numminen is frankly ridiculous.

Numminen was a top-pairing NHL defender for close to 15 years who should have been top-5 in Norris voting on an occasion or two if the voters weren't stupidly giving votes to one-way players like Sergei Gonchar. It's a shame he never got to play for a good team where his abilities would have been truly appreciated.

MS is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.