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08-14-2008, 06:58 AM
  #51
Sanderson
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
I could have sworn they had re-upped with Gratton?

I better take a look at the Heft that just came out.

DEL Vorschau - seems like it's coming out a wee bit early this year!
They thought about it after he played well in the playoffs but ultimately decided against it, citing that he was too expensive. Though I doubt that Wilm is really cheaper

Gratton now signed in Austria, I think.

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08-14-2008, 09:16 AM
  #52
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good news for huskies and lions. lebeau won't sign here. richer denied that there was interest. lebeau asked the huskies if he could take part in practice, but the huskies denied. they have not enough money to sign him.

not having enough money is sometimes a good thing.

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08-16-2008, 04:24 AM
  #53
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Berlin's championship ring:

http://www.hockeyweb.de/artikel.php?a=38161

Not the most beautiful championship ring I have ever seen, but then again, a DEL-title is not the Stanley Cup

Not a case of DEL copying the NHL, as it was Anschütz who had the idea.

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08-24-2008, 02:08 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
It may be time to mention the new DEL-rosters, at least those which are complete by now.

Here are the Hamburg Freezers:

Vitalij Aab - Peter Sarno - John Tripp
Francois Fortier - Alexander Barta - Brad Smyth
Travis Brigley - Clarke Wilm - Jason Pinizzotto
Thomas Pielmeier - Marcus Sommerfeld - Richard Mueller

Paul Manning - Jere Karalahti
Sean Blanchard - Andy Delmore
Rob Leask - Stephan Retzer
Daniel Sevo - Max Schmidle (forward)

Jean-Marc Pelletier
Tobias Güttner


Wasn't really all that thrilled about the new season, but as training started a few days ago, it changed quite a bit. Right now I can't wait to see the season start. Hopefully the team plays more like the one that finished the regular season and not like the one which did absolutely nothing for most of the season. Bigger attendance would also be nice, though I doubt that last year did much to increase the interest
3 ex-Preds ^^

Why so extremely few germans? The DEL is a good league, but they should ease in some max-foreigner rules slowly so that the league doesn't lose too much quality in the process.

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08-25-2008, 03:10 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
Why so extremely few germans? The DEL is a good league, but they should ease in some max-foreigner rules slowly so that the league doesn't lose too much quality in the process.
i see at least 6 german forwards. though it might be seven, you never know.

there is a foreigner limit. but with 10 it's way too high. in general it's getting better though. more and more young germans get their ice-time. hamburg though...well at least they have pielmeier now. i hope he gets his chances, he's talented.

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08-25-2008, 06:26 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
3 ex-Preds ^^

Why so extremely few germans? The DEL is a good league, but they should ease in some max-foreigner rules slowly so that the league doesn't lose too much quality in the process.
As Zecke alluded to, the number of licenses for foreigners is slowly dropping. Just went from 11 to 10 for this season.

Unfortunately for German hockey, any drastic cut in foreigners for the DEL would simply mean a drastic weakening of the on-ice product. Ice hockey is still a fairly strongly viewed sport here, even if Germany TV likes to avoid it like the pest. There are several clubs averaging over 8'000 attendees per home game.

Those in charge are constantly trying to figure out what would be best for both German hockey on whole and their professional system as it currently is.

Zecke:
Pielmeier was the best player on the ice for Hamburg's 7-1 victory. With Pinizzotto and Sarno injured, they surely need for a kid like him to put in some solid playing time to begin this season.

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08-25-2008, 07:26 AM
  #57
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PS) .... pressed send to quickly

To summarize:
From a talent standpoint alone, even a drop to only 7 foreigners - still a higher amount than in most European top leagues - would see the strength of the league fall considerably.

Ice hockey is still entertainment in Germany.

That said, German ice hockey and the development of its young players is in a MUCH better state than it was even 8 years ago.

Some of these kids like Sulzer, Dietrich, Braun, Schutz, Gogulla, Greiss and Holzer will be heard from in the NHL in coming years. I'd go so far as to say that you should definitely keep an eye on Gogulla. He went 14-42-56 last season in the DEL.... heck of a good year for a kid who was 20 most of the season!

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09-01-2008, 01:04 AM
  #58
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I do not think any league should have a limit on foreigners. If you are a professional league and the team is to make a profit, you should put the best players available on the ice, regardless of nationality. Even with limiting it to 10 players, that means you still have 13 german players on the team. How do they get better? By playing with and against better players.

What do you think the condition of hockey would be if the NHL and the AHL put a limit of 6 non-canadian/americans on their rosters? Is that what would really be best for all of hockey? The DEL wouldn't be where it is today without the players they brought over. Neither would the junior teams or the national team.

So, with 13 roster spots being german, I am confused as to how anyone can make the following statement without laughing while typing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattihp View Post
3 ex-Preds ^^

Why so extremely few germans? The DEL is a good league, but they should ease in some max-foreigner rules slowly so that the league doesn't lose too much quality in the process.

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09-01-2008, 02:58 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
I do not think any league should have a limit on foreigners. If you are a professional league and the team is to make a profit, you should put the best players available on the ice, regardless of nationality. Even with limiting it to 10 players, that means you still have 13 german players on the team. How do they get better? By playing with and against better players.
The leagues are managed by the federations. And the federations of course want their national team to have such a wide selection of "elite" players as possible. If every team only has players from the rest of the world, it's hard to find players. And with 10 foreign players, they should take up the most important roles on the team (otherwise those spots should go to young germans instead) and then what you have is germans only in the league as role players...

Quote:
What do you think the condition of hockey would be if the NHL and the AHL put a limit of 6 non-canadian/americans on their rosters? Is that what would really be best for all of hockey?
That would be awesome for hockey. Especially in Europe.

And to gradually drop the allowed foreigner limit would mean that the teams get some time to build a good team, and the quality would hopefully not drup that much

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09-01-2008, 05:16 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
I do not think any league should have a limit on foreigners. If you are a professional league and the team is to make a profit, you should put the best players available on the ice, regardless of nationality. Even with limiting it to 10 players, that means you still have 13 german players on the team. How do they get better? By playing with and against better players.

What do you think the condition of hockey would be if the NHL and the AHL put a limit of 6 non-canadian/americans on their rosters? Is that what would really be best for all of hockey? The DEL wouldn't be where it is today without the players they brought over. Neither would the junior teams or the national team.

So, with 13 roster spots being german, I am confused as to how anyone can make the following statement without laughing while typing it.
Uh, there was a time when there wasn't a limit, and the league sucked. Everyone was buying Canadians just because they were Canadians, not because they actually were able to play hockey. It ruined the German team, completely cut away any chance for young Germans to get into the league, led to enormous salaries for the few very good Germans and turned the DEL into a bush league.

Young Germans don't improve while they are not playing. Suggesting that removing the limit on foreigners would help them ist just wrong. With 10 foreigners, the teams still are at a point, where they fill almost all the important roles on the teams.

The DEL is where it is, because they got away from all the foreigners. Reducing the number let to a better selection and more icetime for the Germans. Now the foreigners are much better than they were back then and so are the Germans. What is more helpful for a player, sitting on the bench while a bunch of no-talent goons is destroying the ice, or getting a good amount of icetime while having talented foreigners to learn from?

Besides, teams aren't out there to make a profit. This is Europe, winning is important, getting even or making a slight amount of money is fine, but making a profit is never the first priority.


A limit on foreigners is very important, especially for the smaller nations, otherwise they get a flood of Canadians or Americans who take valuable icetime away from their own players.
It's not like it's any different in Canada. The CHL has a limit of two foreigners as well, because they know that teams would love to use high-end prospects from Europe in combination with their own high-end talent, which takes away icetime from the slightly lesser talented Canadians.

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09-03-2008, 10:02 AM
  #61
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Hamburg adds Elia Ostwald to the roster.

In addition they have agreed to a cooperation with the Dresdner Eislöwen. Following players from Dresden get a Förderlizenz: David-Lee Paton (G), Dominic Krabbat (F), Michael Schmerda (F), Andreas Maier (D)

Goalie Sebastian Albrecht from the Eisbären Juniors also gets a FL.

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09-03-2008, 12:24 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Uh, there was a time when there wasn't a limit, and the league sucked. Everyone was buying Canadians just because they were Canadians, not because they actually were able to play hockey. It ruined the German team, completely cut away any chance for young Germans to get into the league, led to enormous salaries for the few very good Germans and turned the DEL into a bush league.

Young Germans don't improve while they are not playing. Suggesting that removing the limit on foreigners would help them ist just wrong. With 10 foreigners, the teams still are at a point, where they fill almost all the important roles on the teams.

The DEL is where it is, because they got away from all the foreigners. Reducing the number let to a better selection and more icetime for the Germans. Now the foreigners are much better than they were back then and so are the Germans. What is more helpful for a player, sitting on the bench while a bunch of no-talent goons is destroying the ice, or getting a good amount of icetime while having talented foreigners to learn from?

Besides, teams aren't out there to make a profit. This is Europe, winning is important, getting even or making a slight amount of money is fine, but making a profit is never the first priority.


A limit on foreigners is very important, especially for the smaller nations, otherwise they get a flood of Canadians or Americans who take valuable icetime away from their own players.
It's not like it's any different in Canada. The CHL has a limit of two foreigners as well, because they know that teams would love to use high-end prospects from Europe in combination with their own high-end talent, which takes away icetime from the slightly lesser talented Canadians.
You have proved my point exactly. The limit on foreigners is not needed, you need people that can properly evaluate talent. Also, Canadian Junior Hockey restrictions to an elite league is not comparable. If you want to make a proper comparison, compare the Canadian junior league restrictions to those of junior hockey in Germany.

If you want a professional league, compare the DEL to the AHL or ECHL or NHL.

As for taking away ice time, if the home grown players were better, they would usually get the ice time. Also, how can a country the size of Germany or, in your statement"even the smaller countries", hope to have enough talented players to fill out rosters of 20 teams (tier 1 and tier 2 leagues)? The talent pool is much smaller so would you rather have a crap local player getting ice time or an good foreign player?

I am not even going to address the statement that teams are not out to make a profit as I know for a fact that they are out to make a profit.

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09-03-2008, 03:18 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
If you want a professional league, compare the DEL to the AHL or ECHL or NHL.
What about the restriction of veteran players?

Quote:
As for taking away ice time, if the home grown players were better, they would usually get the ice time. Also, how can a country the size of Germany or, in your statement"even the smaller countries", hope to have enough talented players to fill out rosters of 20 teams (tier 1 and tier 2 leagues)? The talent pool is much smaller so would you rather have a crap local player getting ice time or an good foreign player?
You know, that Germany actually has about 82 million inhabitants, right? The problem is not the size, but the funding of hockey and youth hockey in particular. As soccer takes away most of the (better: all but all) the media attention, which consequently leads to a lack of puclic interest, which again results in less marketing revenues.
Thus both the league and the national hockey federation believe, that it is crucial to add some more local talent to the league and especially to strenghten the national team, as success of the national team is unmatched in terms of attracting public interest. It however remains to be seen, if this translates to interest in a sport or just in the national team, but it is the most common strategy among the niche-sports' (actually all sports besides soccer) officials in Germany.

It might sound odd, but the quality of the league has not suffered from the quota, but has drastically increased since its implementation.

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09-03-2008, 07:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
You have proved my point exactly. The limit on foreigners is not needed, you need people that can properly evaluate talent. Also, Canadian Junior Hockey restrictions to an elite league is not comparable. If you want to make a proper comparison, compare the Canadian junior league restrictions to those of junior hockey in Germany.

If you want a professional league, compare the DEL to the AHL or ECHL or NHL.

As for taking away ice time, if the home grown players were better, they would usually get the ice time. Also, how can a country the size of Germany or, in your statement"even the smaller countries", hope to have enough talented players to fill out rosters of 20 teams (tier 1 and tier 2 leagues)? The talent pool is much smaller so would you rather have a crap local player getting ice time or an good foreign player?

I am not even going to address the statement that teams are not out to make a profit as I know for a fact that they are out to make a profit.
Yes, the limit is needed and yes, comparing it to juniors is completely valid, hockey is hockey. Both the Canadian junior leagues and the European hockey leagues introduce a foreigner limit to protect their own talent. The only difference is that teams in Europe have their own youth system, thus having players come through their ranks through midget, youth and junior age, instead of having independant leagues like in North America.

You are trying to use the North American model on something that is build completely different. In Europe youth and mens hockey are connected, if you flood the mens teams with unnecessary foreigners, you take away icetime from the prospects.

"Smaller countries" means countries which less hockey players than others. Canada, USA and Russia produce enough hockey players to fill at least three or four other countries, though not with better quality, that's why you need a limit in the other countries, to stop teams from only getting foreigners whenever things aren't going well.

The local players aren't crap, quite the opposite actually. They are good, and they will get even better if they get enough icetime. They won't get any icetime, if every team on a bad stretch of games just buys a new foreigner to get out of the slump.

Having no limit has already proven to not work at all, so why are you trying to convince people that it isn't true?


Uh, you have no idea about European and particularly German hockey, do you?
Apart from the change to accomodate the league form of the DEL, every hockey team is either a club or has a club that it is based on, as such they are non-profit organisations that get preferential treatment when it comes to taxes, but also have to serve society.

This isn't the NHL, where some business-men try to make money. These clubs aren't far away from the fans and members, they exist so people can play hockey, not to have pros put on a show. And while the DEL itself is a bit more like the NHL in that regard, it doesn't change that trying to make money instead of winning doesn't get you anywhere.

Winning is the most important thing here. There have been plenty of teams which have gone bankrupt, because they spend more than they had. Most teams try to break even, if they accomplish that, they have done their job. Some may make some money now and then, but that's usually put back into the team anyway. Because if they don't, the fans simply won't show up. No one really dares to put up a worse roster just to make more money, because the leagues parity doesn't allow teams to get much worse, else they drop off in such a way that the fans get pissed and won't come anymore. And that brings us to the most important point of all, German hockey teams are gate-driven and sponsor-driven. You put a bad product on the ice, and you lose way more money than you could ever save by the lower salaries.


Last edited by Sanderson: 09-03-2008 at 07:24 PM.
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09-04-2008, 06:46 AM
  #65
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Hamburg adds Elia Ostwald to the roster.

In addition they have agreed to a cooperation with the Dresdner Eislöwen. Following players from Dresden get a Förderlizenz: David-Lee Paton (G), Dominic Krabbat (F), Michael Schmerda (F), Andreas Maier (D)

Goalie Sebastian Albrecht from the Eisbären Juniors also gets a FL.
Fascinating stuff. That boy Ostwald is a giant. Hasn't quite settled in yet, but who knows.... wouldn't mind seeing him follow in Constantin Braun's footsteps.

Anyhow, with him and Albrecht, the Anschutz connection strikes again.

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09-04-2008, 07:09 AM
  #66
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Folks, there are many reasons for the fact that a nation of 82 million can't yet compete in the sport of ice hockey with neighboring nations that often claim less than a 10th of that population.

Naturally, as alluded to above, the interest and the financing simply isn't there.

In its roots, there needs to be more children finding their way to the sport. Ice time and better coaching are real sore spots as well. Ice hockey isn't as easy as picking up a soccer ball or basketball and playing out on a field or in the street.

It's more consuming, both temporally and financially.

Grass Root Problem:
Only recently (the last ten years) has the German Ice Hockey Federation put a great deal more attention in the education and licensing system for its coaches, at all levels. As such, we won't be seeing the real results for another 10 years or so, however, as someone else pointed out, the players are becoming better than they were even ten years ago, and this evident in the DEL, where the level of play hasn't dropped despite the slow decline in permitted foreigners. Germany has more players being drafted by the NHL and even featured 5 players in the CHL last season. On average, there seems to be about 2 or 3 young Germans who break through as a regular each season. Krefeld, for example, had a lot of U26 German players last season who played regular roles and even put up some points.

Still, the politics of the various leagues serve for conflict. In the past few years, there have been more and more cooperations being formed. The idea of the big clubs having a "farm system" of sorts has been setting in.

German hockey however would like to see more of the U21 kids playing regular, responsible roles in the lower leagues than practicing with the big clubs, only to sit on the bench during games. That's understandable.

Making Profits:
Naturally, the sport is a business and gains are - ideally - to be made. Germany has seen a number of wealthy "hobbyists" put good money into their teams although they never reap profits (just look at a club like Bad Nauheim at the end of the 90ies). That's mostly been seen at lower levels, but a team like Duisburg hasn't once broken even since being in the big leagues. Their management/ownership nonetheless lives for the sport. Hamburg has a hard time profiting.... they pay 50'000 Euro per game in rent for their arena. That times 26 plus playoffs. Augsburg pays 3 million rent for the entire season. Hamburg has complained on numerous occasions that any season without playoffs will be garnered with a financial loss. Yet they have a much bigger budget than Augsburg.

The big thing is that within five years, every DEL team is to have a DNL team, i.e. a team in Germany's top junior league. The estimated costs for such a team per season are 400'000 to 500'000 a season. The hope is that such a junior league will eventually develop young players to the point that the DEL can almost live with their graduates and a regulation of app. 5 foreigners per team. That would mean that many teams end up entrusting German players with PP time, PK time, crunch time minutes, go-to offensive responsibility, etc.

Only once that is in place, will Germany be able to compete with the top 6 nations on the international scene.

Beleive me, the makers and shakers of the German program are not pleased with the fact that Germany can't regularly outplay a Denmark or Latvia. Even Austria and Slovenia can cause Germany problems. They too know that that shouldn't be the case for a nation of 82 million that is renowned in winter sports.

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09-04-2008, 08:58 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Yes, the limit is needed and yes, comparing it to juniors is completely valid, hockey is hockey. Both the Canadian junior leagues and the European hockey leagues introduce a foreigner limit to protect their own talent. The only difference is that teams in Europe have their own youth system, thus having players come through their ranks through midget, youth and junior age, instead of having independant leagues like in North America.

You are trying to use the North American model on something that is build completely different. In Europe youth and mens hockey are connected, if you flood the mens teams with unnecessary foreigners, you take away icetime from the prospects.

"Smaller countries" means countries which less hockey players than others. Canada, USA and Russia produce enough hockey players to fill at least three or four other countries, though not with better quality, that's why you need a limit in the other countries, to stop teams from only getting foreigners whenever things aren't going well.

The local players aren't crap, quite the opposite actually. They are good, and they will get even better if they get enough icetime. They won't get any icetime, if every team on a bad stretch of games just buys a new foreigner to get out of the slump.

Having no limit has already proven to not work at all, so why are you trying to convince people that it isn't true?


Uh, you have no idea about European and particularly German hockey, do you?
Apart from the change to accomodate the league form of the DEL, every hockey team is either a club or has a club that it is based on, as such they are non-profit organisations that get preferential treatment when it comes to taxes, but also have to serve society.

This isn't the NHL, where some business-men try to make money. These clubs aren't far away from the fans and members, they exist so people can play hockey, not to have pros put on a show. And while the DEL itself is a bit more like the NHL in that regard, it doesn't change that trying to make money instead of winning doesn't get you anywhere.

Winning is the most important thing here. There have been plenty of teams which have gone bankrupt, because they spend more than they had. Most teams try to break even, if they accomplish that, they have done their job. Some may make some money now and then, but that's usually put back into the team anyway. Because if they don't, the fans simply won't show up. No one really dares to put up a worse roster just to make more money, because the leagues parity doesn't allow teams to get much worse, else they drop off in such a way that the fans get pissed and won't come anymore. And that brings us to the most important point of all, German hockey teams are gate-driven and sponsor-driven. You put a bad product on the ice, and you lose way more money than you could ever save by the lower salaries.
It is completely incorrect to compare a JUNIOR league where players are under 22 and is used for development to a professional league.

And I completely understand german hockey structure as well as that in other countries. "Clubs" still need to make money. Non-proit organizations still make money, they just give it all back so they don't show a profit on paper.

And why would any team want to put a worse product on the ice, as you allude to?

Lastly, the biggest issue with German hockey is that there is no development league whether it is juniors, high school or college, like CIsle said.


Last edited by Tommy Hawk: 09-05-2008 at 12:15 PM.
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09-04-2008, 07:35 PM
  #68
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@Wolvesfan:
See CIsle and my posts above.

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09-05-2008, 04:22 PM
  #69
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Hooray! My beloved Augsburger Panther spanked Fuechse Duisburg 6-2 today.

Too bad my favourite player of theirs, Shane Joseph, is now a member of the DEG Metrostars. Oh well, reason to follow another DEL club I guess!


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09-07-2008, 03:45 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
It is completely incorrect to compare a JUNIOR league where players are under 22 and is used for development to a professional league.

And I completely understand german hockey structure as well as that in other countries. "Clubs" still need to make money. Non-proit organizations still make money, they just give it all back so they don't show a profit on paper.

And why would any team want to put a worse product on the ice, as you allude to?

Lastly, the biggest issue with German hockey is that there is no development league whether it is juniors, high school or college, like CIsle said.
No, it isn't. As I said, the system in Europe is completely different, everything is connected, unlike in North America, where there is an independant league (or leagues) for everything. With the junior teams being part of the mens teams, the comparison I made is completely valid and the only way to look at these things.

Again, there is no junior league for the high-end prospects in Germany, which means that those young players often play in the mens league. Under your "no limit on foreigners" idea, there is no place for them, so they are screwed. The only way to protect them, is to limit the number of foreigners (and Germans above a certain age, but that's a different matter). This is exactly the same as in America. Just because the leagues are split in NA while they are connected in Europe, doesn't change a thing, the idea behind it is completely the same.


Of course they make some money, I specifically said so!
But you said their main goal is to make money, which isn't the case at all. They are trying to break even, making a small profit is nice, but it's not something they shoot for, and if they make one, it is put back into the team, not into the owners pockets. Every team tries to be as good as possible, if they'd make a profit, they would waste money that could have improved the roster, it's as simple as that.

Looks like a pretty easy concept to me. If you want to make money, you try to keep salaries low. If you want to make more profit, you try to lower the salaries, which in almost every case leads to a worse roster. That leads to less success which leads to less money through sponsors and attendance.



Great start by Hamburg, two 3-4 losses against Kassel and Augsburg, way to go!
Seven of the eight goals against came while Hamburg was shorthanded, one directly after they returned to full strength. Last season, the SH-play at times was close to perfect, they even managed to control the other team now and then. There were some bad times as well, but definately nothing like right now. it's simply incomprehensible how the penalty-killing dropped of so badly.

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09-08-2008, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Great start by Hamburg, two 3-4 losses against Kassel and Augsburg, way to go!
Seven of the eight goals against came while Hamburg was shorthanded, one directly after they returned to full strength. Last season, the SH-play at times was close to perfect, they even managed to control the other team now and then. There were some bad times as well, but definately nothing like right now. it's simply incomprehensible how the penalty-killing dropped of so badly.
Unfortunately I don't see a good season for Hamburg coming up. I think they made a big mistake staying with Pelletier, although Sauve in the playoffs looked really bad. I wonder if they would have been better off finding another import?

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09-08-2008, 10:52 AM
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What are your first impressions on Kerelahti?

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09-08-2008, 12:37 PM
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On ice or at the Reeperbahn?

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09-08-2008, 04:18 PM
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Still hunting to find either tv service or online feeds of the games...Signed up for a German service,but they only offer the basic networks like ZDF,ARD,etc...

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09-08-2008, 05:12 PM
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Unfortunately, Premiere on demand still works only with a German or Austrian IP.

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