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Old
06-11-2008, 05:41 PM
  #151
Winston Wolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
But I don't think Umberger is a second-liner... at all or if he is, he is on the lower end... Hartnell and Carter are definitely second liners. Umberger doesn't have a youth upside anymore and he's not on a great contract (RFA) and he's scored 20 goals once. He has as much value as Raffi Torres who is a 2nd/3rd line tweener and a is valued at a second round pick at best.

I fully support "Carter for high-end young D-man" trades as that is fair value, but Umberger doesn't actually have much trade value around the league - there are too many players like him.
How in the world do you figure that Raffi Torres and Umberger have the same trade value? Umberger just had a 50 point season and a very good playoffs. Torres hasn't done anything the last two years and missed a bunch of time with a knee injury. Torres isn't worth much more than a mid round pick, yet Oilers fans think he still has value for some reason.

I'm not saying that Umberger has a bunch of untapped potential, but 60-65 points certainly isn't out of reach. He's worth close to a top 4 defenseman, no, not a young one with top pairing upside, but a decent player that can play 18 minutes a night.

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06-11-2008, 05:49 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
That's some seriously bad analysis. Yes, Lupul & Carter are good young players, but Edler, Schneider, and whoever goes in that 10th spot are all top-tier, blue-chip players.

Don't make out like the return is peanuts. It's silly, disingenuous and undercuts your other posts.
Carter and Lupul for Edler, Schneider, 1st, and 2nd does set us back years. Sorry, it's a bad deal. The value isn't ridiculously far off, but we lose WAY too much offense.

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06-11-2008, 05:50 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
whoever goes in that 10th spot are all top-tier, blue-chip players.
The 10th is still just a lottery pick - who knows what will happen, injuries, rushed development, personal issues, death (RIP), etc.

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06-11-2008, 05:52 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
That's some seriously bad analysis. Yes, Lupul & Carter are good young players, but Edler, Schneider, and whoever goes in that 10th spot are all top-tier, blue-chip players.

Don't make out like the return is peanuts. It's silly, disingenuous and undercuts your other posts.
Peanuts.. Nope, not peanuts but this trade will not bring us to the cup finals anytime soon and Carter and Lupul will 100% improve your club as soon as next year.

Bad analysis? lol ok Pal..

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06-11-2008, 05:53 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
Is it just me or do the Flyers get boned here? Moving up 10-12 spots in the draft + Krajicek costs Lupul? I'd hope that the Hawks would be willing do to better than that. Maybe 10th overall + Wizniewski for Lupul + PHI 1st? I think that Wiz is a lot better fit that Krajicek.
Chicago has the 11th overall, but OK. Seriously, though, I'd do that deal if Chicago added either Crawford or Unice to the deal. We need a goalie prospect bad, and we could add two with one of those guys and the 27th overall (Pickard, McCollum, or Markstrom), and take a defenseman with the 11th (or we could package them and move up to, say #6 overall). And there'd be more space to sign the RFAs. I also like Wisniewski; he'd fit in nicely on D. Good proposal.

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06-11-2008, 05:58 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Winston Wolf View Post
How in the world do you figure that Raffi Torres and Umberger have the same trade value? Umberger just had a 50 point season and a very good playoffs. Torres hasn't done anything the last two years and missed a bunch of time with a knee injury. Torres isn't worth much more than a mid round pick, yet Oilers fans think he still has value for some reason.

I'm not saying that Umberger has a bunch of untapped potential, but 60-65 points certainly isn't out of reach. He's worth close to a top 4 defenseman, no, not a young one with top pairing upside, but a decent player that can play 18 minutes a night.
Umberger is a year away from UFA and has scored 20 goals once in his career... even 4th line scrubs Glencross + Brodziak both scored more goals than Umberger in the regular season this year. There are dozens of players like Umberger than can be had for 2nd/3rd round picks.

Torres is approximate a 20G 20A - 40pt player which is Umberger's typical rate except this year. I don't see his upside. The other difference is that Torres scores 99% of his points at ES because he doesn't play on the PP whereas Umberger scores maybe 70% at ES. I've always said Torres is a lesser Hartnell.

Is he worth a top-4 D-men? Maybe a defensive D-men, but not an two-way top-4 D-man.

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06-11-2008, 05:58 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Chicago has the 11th overall, but OK. Seriously, though, I'd do that deal if Chicago added either Crawford or Unice to the deal. We need a goalie prospect bad, and we could add two with one of those guys and the 27th overall (Pickard, McCollum, or Markstrom), and take a defenseman with the 11th (or we could package them and move up to, say #6 overall). And there'd be more space to sign the RFAs. I also like Wisniewski; he'd fit in nicely on D. Good proposal.
Your saying it like we'd still keep the 27th in the deal. We wouldn't that goes back to Chicago.

I'd love to keep both though.

Lupul, Nodl, and one of Maroon, Marshall, or Bartulis
for
1st, Wiz, Unice

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Old
06-11-2008, 06:01 PM
  #158
mercury
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Your saying it like we'd still keep the 27th in the deal. We wouldn't that goes back to Chicago.

I'd love to keep both though.

Lupul, Nodl, and one of Maroon, Marshall, or Bartulis
for
1st, Wiz, Unice
Right. Yours works better. LOL Sorry, I am looking at like three different windows at once. I'd do something around that, though. Who is available at 11 on D? Myers? Carlson?

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06-11-2008, 06:11 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Right. Yours works better. LOL Sorry, I am looking at like three different windows at once. I'd do something around that, though. Who is available at 11 on D? Myers? Carlson?
That's probably right around where Myers goes from what I've read and around 10 or so picks early for Carlson.

If we got Unice in the trade though I would DEFINITELY try to move up and get one of the big time dmen.

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06-11-2008, 06:12 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by voxel View Post
Umberger is a year away from UFA and has scored 20 goals once in his career... even 4th line scrubs Glencross + Brodziak both scored more goals than Umberger in the regular season this year. There are dozens of players like Umberger than can be had for 2nd/3rd round picks.

Torres is approximate a 20G 20A - 40pt player which is Umberger's typical rate except this year. I don't see his upside. The other difference is that Torres scores 99% of his points at ES because he doesn't play on the PP whereas Umberger scores maybe 70% at ES. I've always said Torres is a lesser Hartnell.

Is he worth a top-4 D-men? Maybe a defensive D-men, but not an two-way top-4 D-man.
how many years as torres been in the league compared to umbergers 3? it is unrealistic to think rj can possibly improve.

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06-11-2008, 06:49 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
That's probably right around where Myers goes from what I've read and around 10 or so picks early for Carlson.

If we got Unice in the trade though I would DEFINITELY try to move up and get one of the big time dmen.
Which one? I like Doughty personally, but we'd need to get up to #2-3 for him. Pietrangelo?

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06-11-2008, 06:50 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
how many years as torres been in the league compared to umbergers 3? it is unrealistic to think rj can possibly improve.
4 years vs. 3 years. 8 months difference between the two - both are 26 as of today. I don't see much upside in either...

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are junk... I just don't see either being worth a late 1st rounder in the offseason because there are plenty of players like them.

Players like Carter are worth a lot more because of their age (Carter is 23) and upside (almost scored 30 goals).

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06-11-2008, 07:05 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
Which one? I like Doughty personally, but we'd need to get up to #2-3 for him. Pietrangelo?
Shenn, Bognosian, Pietrangelo, Dought any of them

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06-11-2008, 07:10 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
Shenn, Bognosian, Pietrangelo, Dought any of them
What and the 11th would we send for a top 6 pick?

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06-11-2008, 07:19 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
What and the 11th would we send for a top 6 pick?
probably our other 1st, but I'd be ok with that because we'd have already gotten our goalie prosect in Unice.

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06-11-2008, 07:22 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by ELab2 View Post
probably our other 1st, but I'd be ok with that because we'd have already gotten our goalie prosect in Unice.
I'd be OK with that. And we could always choose another goalie with a later pick.

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06-11-2008, 07:24 PM
  #167
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Oh my God!

Carter and Gagne are not going to be TRADED!


GAH!

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Old
06-11-2008, 07:26 PM
  #168
mercury
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Originally Posted by flyguy1234 View Post
Oh my God!

Carter and Gagne are not going to be TRADED!


GAH!
Hopefully, that speculation is over now. The Carter+Lupul for Schneider, Edler, and picks deal pretty much killed it.

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06-11-2008, 08:17 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by voxel View Post
4 years vs. 3 years. 8 months difference between the two - both are 26 as of today. I don't see much upside in either...

But don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are junk... I just don't see either being worth a late 1st rounder in the offseason because there are plenty of players like them.

Players like Carter are worth a lot more because of their age (Carter is 23) and upside (almost scored 30 goals).
what meant weas how long has he been a pro? umberger can no doubt get a mid to late round 1st- 20-29. torres have no idea.

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06-11-2008, 08:35 PM
  #170
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Just because I like watching people freak out:

Kesler, Edler, 2008 1st (10th overall)

for

Umberger and Carter

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06-11-2008, 08:44 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by mrmyheadhurts View Post
Just because I like watching people freak out:

Kesler, Edler, 2008 1st (10th overall)

for

Umberger and Carter
I'd do that, actually. I like Kesler, and he's signed at a reasonable amount through 2010. I don't know if the Flyers team members would like that deal, though.

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06-12-2008, 09:41 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
I'd do that, actually. I like Kesler, and he's signed at a reasonable amount through 2010. I don't know if the Flyers team members would like that deal, though.
I have mixed feelings about it. Probably, a no from me. Add Schneider. I want overpayment for Carter, simple as that.

Also what are we going to do with Upshall? He strongly dislikes Kesler.

Kesler talks in h is sleep. Thats a nagative value right there


Last edited by Kaktus*: 06-12-2008 at 09:47 AM.
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