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Pens' 2009-10 Salary Cap/Lineup Discussion (UPDATED: June 13)

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Old
12-05-2008, 10:23 PM
  #126
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Gonchar is the most likely player to have been tagged with a LITR, since he is out for the longest, but we have no idea. They might have never even did so. With Kennedy out, they might have done it with him to bring up Pesonen.

Glad that you have this thread, but it's a shame that people who post here do not read it to realize that we don't really have $9+ million in cap room.

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12-06-2008, 12:29 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by p-skank View Post
Gonchar is the most likely player to have been tagged with a LITR, since he is out for the longest, but we have no idea. They might have never even did so. With Kennedy out, they might have done it with him to bring up Pesonen.

Glad that you have this thread, but it's a shame that people who post here do not read it to realize that we don't really have $9+ million in cap room.
That passage you quoted doesn't clarify anything though. Not for me, anyway...maybe I'm missing something.

Could we not have both Whitney and Gonchar on LTIR?

Is LTIR pro-rated - because the example given only clearly shows a 1.5 mil player being immediately replaced with another 1.5 mil player - so would it consequently be possible to bring in a bigger contract player towards the end of the season since we didn't use that money during the rest of the year?

I'm not being smarmy. I really don't know the answers to these questions and I'd like to get some definitive info with links.

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12-08-2008, 12:00 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
That passage you quoted doesn't clarify anything though. Not for me, anyway...maybe I'm missing something.

Could we not have both Whitney and Gonchar on LTIR?

Is LTIR pro-rated - because the example given only clearly shows a 1.5 mil player being immediately replaced with another 1.5 mil player - so would it consequently be possible to bring in a bigger contract player towards the end of the season since we didn't use that money during the rest of the year?

I'm not being smarmy. I really don't know the answers to these questions and I'd like to get some definitive info with links.
i'm inclined to agree with you that there's probably something going on here that we haven't accounted for. you'd think somewhere on these here intertubes there'd be official word of gonchar (or anyone) going on LTIR. i was suspicious the last time the pens went over the ceiling back in late october when they called up minard and pesonen for, what was it, one game each? i was thinking there was a cap provision for emergency call-ups like there's a provision for waivers in that situation as well, but i haven't seen that anywhere.

but i am pretty certain that there's no pro-rating of cap numbers at any point. the guy's salary is one thing, but i don't believe there's any way to reduce a guy's cap number. i think even if sundin comes back at some point this season on a 1-year deal, his cap hit would still be his full salary as if he'd played the entire season.

for now, i'm gonna stick with this gonchar theory, especially after the pens called up lovejoy today to throw another $875k on the fire. besides, there's no disadvantage at all to putting gonchar on LTIR. none. the only requirement is that he miss a certain number of games and days, which is something like 10 games/24 days. it doesn't even matter when they officially placed him on the list because it can be made retroactive to the time of the injury, so that's not an issue.

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12-08-2008, 01:10 AM
  #129
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I wanna say that when a guy gets injured (put on IR), you can bring up 1 guy to replace him that will not count against the cap. However, once you take that guy off IR, his whole cap hit counts, and you must dispose of the replacement if it puts you over the cap.

I swear I've read that somewhere. Could just be me makin **** up again though...

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12-08-2008, 01:32 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by PITTisIT View Post
I wanna say that when a guy gets injured (put on IR), you can bring up 1 guy to replace him that will not count against the cap. However, once you take that guy off IR, his whole cap hit counts, and you must dispose of the replacement if it puts you over the cap.

I swear I've read that somewhere. Could just be me makin **** up again though...
it's all pretty confusing. as usual, irishblues has probably one of the clearest explanations for the legalese that's in the actual CBA itself.

from his site (emphasis mine):

"For players that the team has filed an LTI exception, the team is allowed to exceed the cap by up to the amount of the injured player's salary with as many replacement players as needed, provided that when the injured player is activated the team comes into compliance with the cap immediately. The team does not get to automatically tack on the amount of the injured player's salary to the Upper Limit ... relief toward the salary cap only comes if replacing an injured player's salary would push the team over the cap, and the amount of relief is limited to the amount the team would go over the cap - not the entire amount of the injured player's salary."

everyone who's on the NHL roster -- healthy or on IR/LTIR -- counts against the cap. with LTIR, you're allowed to go past the ceiling to an extent.

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12-09-2008, 06:28 AM
  #131
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We are not getting any savings from Gonchar, Whitney, Fleury, Boucher or Kennedy being on waivers. We are allowed to bring up players to replace those injured (I'm guessing Gonchar and Whitney are our LTIR). The cap is divided up by the number of days in the season and each day has it's own little cap. Teams are not allowed to go over that (total salaries divided by same number of days).

So it is basically the cap and you can't prorate anything. This is why people were upset with allowing big ticket players sign half way through the season for salaries that could be considered half of what they deserve. Sundin will sign for half to two-thirds of what he is worth because he will come in late, which will help ease the cap hit of his new team.

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12-09-2008, 09:30 PM
  #132
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updated... gill heads to IR, pesonsen to WBS. taffe and wallace take their spots.

wow, that's a lot of injured d-men. certainly shows with the play on the ice as of late.

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12-12-2008, 05:13 PM
  #133
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NHL Cap news...

NHLPA Executive Director Paul Kelly doesn't expect the salary cap to increase next season.

Kelly even suggested that the salary cap may be decreased by $1-2 million dollars in 2010-2011. The salary cap's slowing growth is a direct result of the sagging economy, which is already beginning to hurt the NHL. Kelly also said that he doesn't anticipate players earning back their escrow money this season, which means that players will end up with between 85 and 92 percent of their actual contract worth. "Obviously, it's probably the issue we're spending most of our time and attention on during the fall tour," Kelly said. "It didn't start that way. We were focusing on the CBA and hockey issues. But things around the economy continued to deteriorate and it's eaten up more of our attention." Dec. 12 - 2:19 pm et

Source: Boston Globe

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Old
12-19-2008, 05:18 PM
  #134
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plugged in talbot's new extension, removed filewich. interestingly, that frees up a contract if the pens wanted to pick up someone on waivers or otherwise.

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01-08-2009, 03:28 PM
  #135
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updated staal's new contract for the next few years... not including a guy like jeffrey who's on the roster right now, you're looking at ~$47mil for 14 players. in other words, hope no one's expecting the pens to make a big splash in the free-agent pool this summer.

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01-16-2009, 12:20 AM
  #136
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QUESTION:

If the Penguins did not give Staal a new deal, could he have gone to arbitration this summer?

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01-16-2009, 01:34 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinGuru View Post
QUESTION:

If the Penguins did not give Staal a new deal, could he have gone to arbitration this summer?
No, he'd need to be professional for 2 more seasons.

Quote:
12.1. Eligibility.

(a) A player is eligible to elect salary arbitration if the
player meets the qualifications set forth in the following chart
and in Section 12.1(b) below:

First Contract Signing Age Minimum Level of Professional Experience Required to be Eligible for Salary Arbitration

18-20 5 years professional experience
21 4 years professional experience
22-23 3 years professional experience
24 2 years professional experience
25 and older 1 year professional experience

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01-16-2009, 05:56 AM
  #138
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No, he'd need to be professional for 2 more seasons.
Thank you.

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Old
02-17-2009, 01:05 AM
  #139
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Next season we need to figure out exactly how the cap works and update the cap on a daily basis.

I'm just saying because it isn't as simple as adding up the players on the pro roster and subtracting it from the cap. Even with Robert Lang on the injured reserve, Montreal is now over the cap with their new defender. I wish the Pens capologist would come on here and explain it to us!

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02-17-2009, 01:33 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p-skank View Post
Next season we need to figure out exactly how the cap works and update the cap on a daily basis.

I'm just saying because it isn't as simple as adding up the players on the pro roster and subtracting it from the cap. Even with Robert Lang on the injured reserve, Montreal is now over the cap with their new defender. I wish the Pens capologist would come on here and explain it to us!
The way I interpret the rule, all you do is divide a player's cap hit by total number of days in the season.

The way nhlnumbers does it, though, is they look at the player's total cap hit and don't really pay attention to the day-to-day stuff. For instance:

They say that a palyer's cap hit is decided by maximum number of games either spent on the NHL roster or on IR. So, say there are 180 days in the season (hypothetical) and we call up Lovejoy at game number 43. According to nhlnumbers, we'd figure out his cap hit while he's up using the following formula:

1) 43/180=.24
2) .875M(Lovejoy's cap hit)*.24(Max % of season he could be on active roster)=.209028M

So, $.209028 was Lovejoy's cap hit until we sent him down. When we send him down, we then subtract the remaining days of the season. So, when we go to send him down, we use this to figure out how much of his cap hit will stick with us for the remainder of the season. Let's say we hypothetically sent him down at day 50:

1) 50-43=7 total days on roster
2) 7/180=.039% of season on active roster
3) .875M*.039=.034M, which stays with us for the rest of the year.

The same thing works with trades. If we traded a player at day 110, we'd still have his cap hit count against us for the % of days he was on our active roster.

This is the way nhlnumbers works it, anyways.

Hope that helped clear some things up. Haha, or maybe I just confused everyone with faulty information provided from a second-rate website when compared to the great Irish Blues.

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02-18-2009, 12:51 AM
  #141
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things had been hectic for me with work and such the past few months, but yes, during the season, the cap is calculated on a daily basis. how i was adding it up is useful for the offseason but not so much for trying to figure out how to squeeze a player in at the trade deadline -- especially with things like LTIR factored in.

i'll give this an update soon, but the key number, as of Feb. 18 is this: $897,242. that's how much payroll space the pens have until the end of the year if there were no more roster moves.

for those interested, please don't use nhlnumbers -- they say right up front that their figures aren't completely accurate, merely a "quick and dirty" cap calculation.

irishblues has kept a very diligent record of every team's situation, and he's been updating it frequently as the deadline nears. you can find the latest numbers here.

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02-18-2009, 01:16 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shureshot66 View Post
things had been hectic for me with work and such the past few months, but yes, during the season, the cap is calculated on a daily basis. how i was adding it up is useful for the offseason but not so much for trying to figure out how to squeeze a player in at the trade deadline -- especially with things like LTIR factored in.

i'll give this an update soon, but the key number, as of Feb. 18 is this: $897,242. that's how much payroll space the pens have until the end of the year if there were no more roster moves.

for those interested, please don't use nhlnumbers -- they say right up front that their figures aren't completely accurate, merely a "quick and dirty" cap calculation.

irishblues has kept a very diligent record of every team's situation, and he's been updating it frequently as the deadline nears. you can find the latest numbers here.
The problem is that your number $897,242 changes daily. Any money that isn't spent today on the cap, can be applied to it later. This is why the AHLers were sent down earlier in the year, the cap hit was saved for a few days and may have been needed after the deadline for a larger payroll.

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02-18-2009, 05:42 AM
  #143
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The problem is that your number $897,242 changes daily. Any money that isn't spent today on the cap, can be applied to it later. This is why the AHLers were sent down earlier in the year, the cap hit was saved for a few days and may have been needed after the deadline for a larger payroll.
correct. that's why i included the link to irishblues' team numbers page. i believe he's been updating it often as the deadline approaches.

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02-26-2009, 09:52 PM
  #144
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gentlemen -- the chart is now updated following today's transactions.

the chart will stay intact to give an idea of the pens' current cap situation and what the numbers look like for the next two seasons. for this week, however, the more pressing number is at the top -- the estimated cap room. the number is just under $650k (not pro-rated) and can/will change before the deadline with various call-ups, etc.

i'm stating the obvious once again, but the important thing to remember is that any deadline deals are going to require shipping back a nearly equal amount of salary in return. please keep this in mind when discussing rumors or making proposals on this board and the main one.

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03-01-2009, 06:18 PM
  #145
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important trade deadline update: irish blues has put together calculations that factor in money saved throughout the year to put together estimated cap space for the deadline for each team.

that number for the penguins is $3,650,413 -- that's the max cap hit they could take on without sending money back. certainly should make things interesting come wednesday.

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03-01-2009, 06:25 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shureshot66 View Post
important trade deadline update: irish blues has put together calculations that factor in money saved throughout the year to put together estimated cap space for the deadline for each team.

that number for the penguins is $3,650,413 -- that's the max cap hit they could take on without sending money back. certainly should make things interesting come wednesday.
Yes, so we do not have to worry about taking back similar salary back in Tades if we only give up prospects and picks or at least as much.

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03-01-2009, 06:25 PM
  #147
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Vely intelesting.

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Old
03-01-2009, 06:27 PM
  #148
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In the end they will leave 1.0 + for emergencies...

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Old
03-01-2009, 06:31 PM
  #149
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Yes, so we do not have to worry about taking back similar salary back in Tades if we only give up prospects and picks or at least as much.
and it could possibly be up to around $4mil, too. the problem is that LTIR figures seem to be reported very rarely unless it's an obvious situation like hatcher and rathje in philadelphia. so it's feasible that some extra dollars can be squeezed out of the currently injured guys like zigomanis and boucher who won't be seeing the ice any time soon.

there are so many nuances that it can all get extremely confusing. as always, keeping tabs on irishblues' numbers is the best way to stay updated.

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03-01-2009, 06:47 PM
  #150
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I like what IB did with the max deadline pickup. The fact that the Isles can add 60+mm at the deadline and still be under the cap, should illustrate just how complex the cap is.

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