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Old
06-15-2008, 02:23 PM
  #26
Asiaoil
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The line that Stoll plays "hard minutes" reminds me a lot of how people used to say Brewer was so valuable because he played a lot of minutes - fact is - neither guy is/was particularly effective in this role. Brewer was pumped before the dump - the Oilers tried the same with Stoll - but he got eaten alive by tough opposition and couldn't hit the ocean with a beachball at ES all year.

It's not enough to just play tough minutes - you have to do something with them - Horcoff does and Stoll never has aside from a short period in 06 before he got his melon crunched. Stoll is now a tweener - not good enough for the top line or toughs at ES but too old and expensive to be protected on the 2nd line. He's the forward equivalent of Souray IMHO (big shot on the PP included) and will never outperform his contract unless he takes a sizable cut.

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06-15-2008, 06:13 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil View Post
The line that Stoll plays "hard minutes" reminds me a lot of how people used to say Brewer was so valuable because he played a lot of minutes - fact is - neither guy is/was particularly effective in this role. Brewer was pumped before the dump - the Oilers tried the same with Stoll - but he got eaten alive by tough opposition and couldn't hit the ocean with a beachball at ES all year.

It's not enough to just play tough minutes - you have to do something with them - Horcoff does and Stoll never has aside from a short period in 06 before he got his melon crunched. Stoll is now a tweener - not good enough for the top line or toughs at ES but too old and expensive to be protected on the 2nd line. He's the forward equivalent of Souray IMHO (big shot on the PP included) and will never outperform his contract unless he takes a sizable cut.
Do you remember where Horcoff was five years ago? You're not being at all objective and quite short sighted. Jarret Stoll had a major set back with a serious injury the likes many players have not had to deal with, his consussion was much more serious than fans were led to believe. Stoll has been a promising player his entire hockey career, a captain at all levels of the game and a promising solid player. It would be stupid to give up on such promise after a tough season. Just like it would have been stupid to give up on Horcoff after last season, and that was without an injury for the record.

It does not make sense to not give him another chance with this hockey team. People seem to be a little high on the end to last season and are foregoing reasonable thinking.

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06-15-2008, 06:20 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by oil_fan85 View Post
Do you remember where Horcoff was five years ago? You're not being at all objective and quite short sighted. Jarret Stoll had a major set back with a serious injury the likes many players have not had to deal with, his consussion was much more serious than fans were led to believe. Stoll has been a promising player his entire hockey career, a captain at all levels of the game and a promising solid player. It would be stupid to give up on such promise after a tough season. Just like it would have been stupid to give up on Horcoff after last season, and that was without an injury for the record.

It does not make sense to not give him another chance with this hockey team. People seem to be a little high on the end to last season and are foregoing reasonable thinking.

Yeh, but Stoll's injury could also mean he will never be the same player he once was.
Lindros...

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06-15-2008, 06:25 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Asiaoil View Post
It's not enough to just play tough minutes - you have to do something with them - Horcoff does and Stoll never has aside from a short period in 06 before he got his melon crunched. Stoll is now a tweener - not good enough for the top line or toughs at ES but too old and expensive to be protected on the 2nd line. He's the forward equivalent of Souray IMHO (big shot on the PP included) and will never outperform his contract unless he takes a sizable cut.
This is a good point. It warrants mentioning, as well, that the only time Stoll has ever been particularly good playing tough minutes was a stretch in 06-07 with Raffi and Pisani. In 05-06, he certainly wasn't playing tough minutes - Horc and Peca were. Horc got the lion's share of the tough minutes in 06-07. This year, Stoll might have split them equally but, as noted, he got slaughtered doing so. With UFA pending for him, if the Oil can get a pick for him it probably makes sense to take it.

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06-15-2008, 06:26 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by oil_fan85 View Post
Do you remember where Horcoff was five years ago?
Do you? Horc and Stoll have had very different career paths but Horc was able to handle tough minutes at this point in his career. He can skate, which probably helps.

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06-15-2008, 06:39 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
My guess is he will be re-signed for one year at a lesser salary than he was earning before.
1.5-2M seems reasonable.
I dont see you getting stoll signed for anything less than his last contract, 1.5-2probally wont get it done, he is still a young kid with a good skill set.

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06-15-2008, 06:49 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by mattbulger View Post
I dont see you getting stoll signed for anything less than his last contract, 1.5-2probally wont get it done, he is still a young kid with a good skill set.

I wonder what he will get if the Oilers elect to take him to arbitration?

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06-15-2008, 06:59 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Asiaoil View Post
The line that Stoll plays "hard minutes" reminds me a lot of how people used to say Brewer was so valuable because he played a lot of minutes - fact is - neither guy is/was particularly effective in this role. Brewer was pumped before the dump - the Oilers tried the same with Stoll - but he got eaten alive by tough opposition and couldn't hit the ocean with a beachball at ES all year.

It's not enough to just play tough minutes - you have to do something with them - Horcoff does and Stoll never has aside from a short period in 06 before he got his melon crunched. Stoll is now a tweener - not good enough for the top line or toughs at ES but too old and expensive to be protected on the 2nd line. He's the forward equivalent of Souray IMHO (big shot on the PP included) and will never outperform his contract unless he takes a sizable cut.
The argument that he played tough minutes isn't necessarily to prove that he's a great player, but rather to show why he may have had such a poor season statistically. In addition to coming off a concussion, Stoll was thrust into a role where he was sent out against opposing top lines, took the lions share of defensive zone draws, and to top it off, wasn't given the quality of linemates needed to succeed in such a role (Moreau and Pisani's injuries were definately felt by Stoll). While the events themselves (goals for/against) weren't kind to him this year, he actually did quite well in terms of opportinuties for/against. When he was on the ice, the puck seemed to be going in the right direction more often than not despite starting out in the wrong end. A lot of Stoll's bad year had a lot to do with just dumb luck. This goes for Torres as well.

Heavy lifting at ES has never been a role that Stoll has succeeded in over the years, and the one period he did have success doing it, he was bookended by some very good ES performers (Torres and Pisani). However, that's not to say that he isn't an asset to the team. He's among our most effective powerplay pointmen, he's invaluable to our PK, and is usually MacT's first choice when killing 5-on-3s, and brings a lot of valueable intangibles to the team. And while he isn't a great ES performer, most players take time before they ever are. There's no reason why Stoll can't develop into that player, and he's definately one step closer than most of our current centermen at this point.

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06-15-2008, 07:11 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MikeComrie'sGhost View Post
Do you? Horc and Stoll have had very different career paths but Horc was able to handle tough minutes at this point in his career. He can skate, which probably helps.
Haha of course I do, I wasn't asking a rhetorical question. Not once did i say they have had similar career paths, not many players have. Horc has never handled tough minutes on his own and did not even have the opportunity to deal at all with touch minutes in part until he was into his late twenties. One thing he has almost always had on his side was Ryan Smyth, not exactly a slouch in the defensive or physical department. This year he was phenomal, I am not upset or argueing that fact I am just asking people to be realistic.

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06-15-2008, 07:12 PM
  #35
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Yeh, but Stoll's injury could also mean he will never be the same player he once was.
Lindros...
This is true and obviously I realize that. I said I think it would be unwise to not give him that chance to come back.

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06-15-2008, 07:16 PM
  #36
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If Stoll has never been good at handling "tough minutes" then why does Craig MacTavish insist on playing him in that role when he had other options this year and in the past?

MacTavish clearly feels Stoll is his best option but it wouldn't be the first time MacTavish put someone in the position to fail.

Pisani has played center for MacTavish in the past and Reasoner and Horcoff both have played tough minutes before so it's not like Stoll is the only option. We had other good shutdown options in the past too.

What gets me is those who aren't high on Stoll are probably big MacTavish supporters. Stoll is MacT's go to guy. Gotta love it.

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06-15-2008, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MikeComrie'sGhost View Post
This is a good point. It warrants mentioning, as well, that the only time Stoll has ever been particularly good playing tough minutes was a stretch in 06-07 with Raffi and Pisani. In 05-06, he certainly wasn't playing tough minutes - Horc and Peca were. Horc got the lion's share of the tough minutes in 06-07. This year, Stoll might have split them equally but, as noted, he got slaughtered doing so. With UFA pending for him, if the Oil can get a pick for him it probably makes sense to take it.
Would it be worth the effort to try and recreate the Stoll-Torres-Pisani line of 06-07? All 3 of those players got injured, or were recovering from injuries this past year, so I think it's unfair to use this past year as an example of that line being a flash in the pan, as I've heard some people say. I think keeping Stoll around and trying to recreate that checking line would be a better idea, and it's an idea that adheres to the buy low sell high concept. They played more tough minutes than the Horcoff line did before Stoll's injury as I recall, so I'll have to disagree with your comment on Horc getting the lion's share of the tough minutes in 06-07.

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06-15-2008, 09:19 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
If Stoll has never been good at handling "tough minutes" then why does Craig MacTavish insist on playing him in that role when he had other options this year and in the past?

MacTavish clearly feels Stoll is his best option but it wouldn't be the first time MacTavish put someone in the position to fail.

Pisani has played center for MacTavish in the past and Reasoner and Horcoff both have played tough minutes before so it's not like Stoll is the only option. We had other good shutdown options in the past too.

What gets me is those who aren't high on Stoll are probably big MacTavish supporters. Stoll is MacT's go to guy. Gotta love it.
Stoll was his best option only because: a) MacT had to play Stoll; b) Stoll was incapable of scoring at EV; c) the Oilers needed to outscore other teams' weaker lines. Once you have all those things in place, it becomes entirely clear that Stoll needed to be this year's Peca - a player who reduces events at both ends of the ice. It was the best bet -- absent benching Stoll, which might have been the best course on a number of nights.

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06-15-2008, 10:24 PM
  #39
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Here's how I look at it...

Stoll is a solid faceoff guy who can also PK.

He is also a PP point man with a solid RH shot.

He is not very offensively gifted at ES or on the PP minus his booming shot.

We are paying him a premium because of his PP production.

With-out it, he is a 3rd/4th line center who is great on the draw, poor offensively, and a PKer.

Subtract his PP duties, what do we have???

A pker that is great on the faceoff dot.

What is that worth???

$2+ million???

Nope.

$1.5 million???

Maybe if you feel that he's an exceptional 3rd line center, I personally don't.

$1-$1.25 million???

We're getting much closer.

The facts are these...

In terms of RH point men we have Gilbert, and eventually Petry or Bisaillon.

Gilbert is already signed to a big/long term deal, so why not use him there at least for the time being???

Now the PK aspect comes in...

We have Brodziak and Pouliot who are both similar in size to Stoll, and who are both RH centermen.

If one of them fails???

Marty Reasoner, a vet for under $1 million who can play a similar role until the kid are ready.

Stoll is not going to be climbing the ladder ahead of Horcoff or Gagner anytime soon, and he doesn't seem to be an elite 3rd line cecking center.

I agree with AO, deal him for a couple of 2nd rounders, then deal Torres for a pick or to move up in the draft, and roll with what we have left.....

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
Nilsson-Gagner-Cogliano
Moreau-Pouliot/Reasoner-Pisani
Glencross-Brodziak-Stortini/Pouliot/Schremp
Pouliot/Reasoner, Stortini/Schremp

Oh yeah, and the kicker??? Brodziak used to play on the point in WBS as well. Sounds like we're pretty well covered if we decide to deal #16.

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06-15-2008, 10:26 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
If Stoll has never been good at handling "tough minutes" then why does Craig MacTavish insist on playing him in that role when he had other options this year and in the past?

MacTavish clearly feels Stoll is his best option but it wouldn't be the first time MacTavish put someone in the position to fail.

Pisani has played center for MacTavish in the past and Reasoner and Horcoff both have played tough minutes before so it's not like Stoll is the only option. We had other good shutdown options in the past too.

What gets me is those who aren't high on Stoll are probably big MacTavish supporters. Stoll is MacT's go to guy. Gotta love it.
Remember when Salo was clearly done and Mac-T kept going back to the well instead of rolling with Conklin at the time???

One of Mac-T's biggest weaknesses is to know when enough is enough and go with another option.

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06-15-2008, 10:32 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Subtract his PP duties, what do we have???
Except you can't do that. He's among our best PP pointmen, and that's a big part of why he's valuable to the team.

Take away Souray's PP duties, and you've got the same thing minus faceoff ability. A PKer, who shouldn't be playing against good players at ES at over twice the cap hit.

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06-15-2008, 10:38 PM
  #42
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Except you can't do that. He's among our best PP pointmen, and that's a big part of why he's valuable to the team.

Take away Souray's PP duties, and you've got the same thing minus faceoff ability. A PKer, who shouldn't be playing against good players at ES at over twice the cap hit.
He can't move the puck very well and his shot is inferio to Souray's in terms of speed, velocity, quickness to get it off, and more broken sticks/shots

Petry has a 95MPH slapper, Bisaillon a 96MPH slapper.

Gilbert while he doesn't have nearly as big of a shot is much more mobile and a much better puck mover from Stoll's spot.

IMO his abilities on the PP are much more easily replaced than his abilities in the faceoff circle.

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06-15-2008, 10:48 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He can't move the puck very well and his shot is inferio to Souray's in terms of speed, velocity, quickness to get it off, and more broken sticks/shots

Petry has a 95MPH slapper, Bisaillon a 96MPH slapper.

Gilbert while he doesn't have nearly as big of a shot is much more mobile and a much better puck mover from Stoll's spot.

IMO his abilities on the PP are much more easily replaced than his abilities in the faceoff circle.
Stoll: 4.00 PPP/60
Souray: 2.70 PPP/60

Funny, for all of Souray's extra flash, he was far less effective than Stoll as a powerplay pointman on this team.

And if you're just going RH vs LH, I'd say Souray is far more easily replaced by Pitkanen (who was 2.31 PPP/60 last year), then Stoll is by two players who haven't even played a single minute in the NHL, and are just as likely to not have careers in the NHL then they are to surpass 4 PPP/60 at the NHL level.

However, THAT'S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE POINT. The point is, you can't just say "well, if he didn't do this...then he wouldn't be worth it" because he does do that.


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06-15-2008, 10:56 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He can't move the puck very well and his shot is inferio to Souray's in terms of speed, velocity, quickness to get it off, and more broken sticks/shots

Petry has a 95MPH slapper, Bisaillon a 96MPH slapper.

Gilbert while he doesn't have nearly as big of a shot is much more mobile and a much better puck mover from Stoll's spot.

IMO his abilities on the PP are much more easily replaced than his abilities in the faceoff circle.
For starters Stoll hadn't broken a stick in a while towards the last of the season, he also mentioned visiting a stick factory as a priority of his in the off season. He moves the puck quite well on the pp, he walks the line effectively, has the intelligence to take smart shots and utilizes his backhand off the wall which is something a lot of point men don't do enough. He impresses me with all these talents far more than Souray did. Our powerplay was better with him on it this year than it was with Souray. Granted that is not all Stoll and I realize that but he didn't do anything to warrant anybody doubting his abilities on the point.

I do agree that his ablilities on the PP could be much more easily replaced that his face-off numbers, although I do think you are undervalueing what he brought to our pp this year. Keep in mind while he was struggling mightily as a player he was still able to be valuable enough to this team to have people discussing whether or not he should stay, there aren't a ton of players you can say that about.

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06-15-2008, 11:19 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by oil_fan85 View Post
Do you remember where Horcoff was five years ago? You're not being at all objective and quite short sighted. Jarret Stoll had a major set back with a serious injury the likes many players have not had to deal with, his consussion was much more serious than fans were led to believe. Stoll has been a promising player his entire hockey career, a captain at all levels of the game and a promising solid player. It would be stupid to give up on such promise after a tough season. Just like it would have been stupid to give up on Horcoff after last season, and that was without an injury for the record.

It does not make sense to not give him another chance with this hockey team. People seem to be a little high on the end to last season and are foregoing reasonable thinking.
The biggest difference between Horcoff of 5 years ago and Stoll of today is Horc was not making $2.5 million, and Horc was not one year away from UFA. Teams need to make decisions on players at lot earlier and sometimes those are hard decisions.

Either Stoll is going to be given the benefit of the doubt and kept around and someone else is getting moved. Or the decision is made for the money he makes and his pending UFA status for next season coupled with he realistic place on the team he is moved if anything approaching fair value is offered.

In my humble opinion I agree with Bryanbryoil, when you really look at Stoll for what he is and the skills he has it is time to move him.

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06-15-2008, 11:27 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
He can't move the puck very well and his shot is inferio to Souray's in terms of speed, velocity, quickness to get it off, and more broken sticks/shots
In all fairness, that's not saying much about Stoll's ability.

Souray may well be the best PP triggerman in the league and his ability to unleash the bomb in a hurry with great precision is truly one of a kind.

I love it when Souray stops the puck and when everyone expects him to pass it, he hammers it on the net, barely taking any swing.

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06-15-2008, 11:29 PM
  #47
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Remember when Salo was clearly done and Mac-T kept going back to the well instead of rolling with Conklin at the time???

One of Mac-T's biggest weaknesses is to know when enough is enough and go with another option.
A more true word has not been spoken. MacT is loyal to a fault sometimes with players that have below average skill and speed but work like a dog. Competition is what makes good teams thrive.

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06-16-2008, 12:07 AM
  #48
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At the beginning of last year, Oiler fans were about 50/50 on whether Stoll or Horcoff was the Oilers best center. He was also suppose to be the Oilers next captain. How quickly things change. Too early to give up on him.
I laughed at it then and im still laughing now. I have always been a Horcoff supporter and probably still will be. However, it all depends on what you could get for Stoll right now. Will we see the same Stoll that could go one-on-one with Eric Staal? I seriously think that he just doesn't fit in with the youth on the team even though he could be a #2 or #3 center.

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06-16-2008, 12:36 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Here's how I look at it...

Stoll is a solid faceoff guy who can also PK.

He is also a PP point man with a solid RH shot.

He is not very offensively gifted at ES or on the PP minus his booming shot.

We are paying him a premium because of his PP production.

With-out it, he is a 3rd/4th line center who is great on the draw, poor offensively, and a PKer.

Subtract his PP duties, what do we have???

A pker that is great on the faceoff dot.

What is that worth???

$2+ million???

Nope.

$1.5 million???

Maybe if you feel that he's an exceptional 3rd line center, I personally don't.

$1-$1.25 million???

We're getting much closer.

The facts are these...

In terms of RH point men we have Gilbert, and eventually Petry or Bisaillon.

Gilbert is already signed to a big/long term deal, so why not use him there at least for the time being???

Now the PK aspect comes in...

We have Brodziak and Pouliot who are both similar in size to Stoll, and who are both RH centermen.

If one of them fails???

Marty Reasoner, a vet for under $1 million who can play a similar role until the kid are ready.

Stoll is not going to be climbing the ladder ahead of Horcoff or Gagner anytime soon, and he doesn't seem to be an elite 3rd line cecking center.

I agree with AO, deal him for a couple of 2nd rounders, then deal Torres for a pick or to move up in the draft, and roll with what we have left.....

Penner-Horcoff-Hemsky
Nilsson-Gagner-Cogliano
Moreau-Pouliot/Reasoner-Pisani
Glencross-Brodziak-Stortini/Pouliot/Schremp
Pouliot/Reasoner, Stortini/Schremp

Oh yeah, and the kicker??? Brodziak used to play on the point in WBS as well. Sounds like we're pretty well covered if we decide to deal #16.
Wow, what a basic way of looking at a player, and at a team without Stoll.

I'm not going to argue till the cows come home about how good Stoll is for this team, however trading stoll might be one of the biggest mistakes we could make, the problem with Stoll is that he's coming off a year where he wasn't particularily effective on the top line, it exposed weaknesses in his game right now, however the way Stoll has played for us in the past, and he's arguably one of our best assets in the forward position.

We are in a position where trading Stoll might be our only option, and picks would probably be a fair return, however unfortunately we won't likely get 2 2nds for him, and any less and i'm not so sure we aren't getting hosed.

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06-16-2008, 01:19 AM
  #50
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Another thing is that everyone assumes Stoll wants to be here for the longterm - not at all. He always was a guy who I thought would be a "good soldier" while here - but would split to California as soon as UFA allowed him to go. I remember a few subtle hints from insiders to that extent a couple of years ago.

Stoll is a good hockey player - but his PP skills (which are however very easily replaced) up his contract number to a place that does not represent good value to the team. The team was pumping him like mad last year - how else do you explain giving a guy with his limited PP skill set the most PP time on the entire team? Even more than Hemsky.

Stoll really should be an elite 3rd line center and PK guy making just under $2 million - but instead he's morphed into an overpaid special team guy with a big erratic slapshot and a relatively mediocre ES record. We still need a 3rd line center and I would prefer to get a real one via UFA for one or two seasons to give Brodziak and MAP more time to fill those shoes longterm.

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