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keep skoula for depth?

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Old
02-15-2004, 07:16 PM
  #1
DRL
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keep skoula for depth?

does anyone see skoula making it pass the deadline?

lets say we acquire a steady rock on the blueline for some picks ala marchment, wouldnt it make sense to keep liles and skoula and have them compete the 6 spot?

i like the avs to have a decent dman in case of injury no clark or smith or maclisster,

do u think it would be best to keep all our remaining defensemen and just add not subtract as well.

i liked to keep skoula for insurance esp since his value is low right now,

thoughts on skoula and our defense and if we trade skoula are u going to be comfortable with our #7 dman?

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02-15-2004, 07:42 PM
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i would hafta agree with u there. i would prefer the avs keep skoula around with the hope that he might still develop into a special talent...much like in the mold of brent sopel, who has been markedly better this year after being the nux fans whipping boy for quite some time.

but, to be honest, i don't see much hope for marty. that play by him on the PK against detroit was horrendous. although, morris was a lil too high in the slot, skoula never should have left the left side so wide open for yzerman. just a terrible play that minor league players don't make. i think he just has too low of a panic point and loses all of his marbles far too often. he's got talent, but its too bad he's not using it effectively.

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02-15-2004, 08:28 PM
  #3
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I guess I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand it would be nice to have Skoula or Liles as a 7th defenseman in case of an injury, but on the other hand they can use all the draft picks they have to develop a better pool of forward talent. They seem pretty set as far as defense is concerned, with a couple of really young guys on the roster in Morris and Liles, some good prospects like Ballard and Slovak, and a few more good years of Blake and Foote. In that regard it might make more sense to use Skoula over draft picks as trade bait.

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02-16-2004, 10:18 AM
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I'd rather have Liles as our sixth D-Man than Skoula. Liles is only a rookie and every time I saw the avs play I watch how Liles is doing and I can tell he is doing way better than Skoula already. It would be great to keep Skoula for having a little depth at the blue line but I don't want to keep Skoula around if it affects Liles ice time and if he would be bench because he's only a rookie. :mad: I wonder why they don't bring back Slovak to give him a shot and see how he would do at this time of year and that may also force Skoula to notch up his game a bit

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02-16-2004, 11:15 AM
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Well, I was defending Skoula because he actually seemed to be playing better alongside Blake, but he has since regressed into the same fool he was at the beginning of this season.

We'd have to get a good return for him, but I wouldn't shed any tears if Marty were to leave tomorrow. The whole notion of his "potential" is now past. He doesn't have any.

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02-16-2004, 11:34 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican
Well, I was defending Skoula because he actually seemed to be playing better alongside Blake, but he has since regressed into the same fool he was at the beginning of this season.

We'd have to get a good return for him, but I wouldn't shed any tears if Marty were to leave tomorrow. The whole notion of his "potential" is now past. He doesn't have any.
i think lacroix is going to have a very quiet deadline, depending on your view of "a vet goalie" aebischer is set in stone as #1 and unless manny fernadez becomes a possibility there is no other goalie worth trading picks for as an upgrade over sauve.

our forwards are very deep to the point where i have no idea who would be a healthy scratch if this was ever fully healthy, cuz you know worrell and cummins are going to be in the top 13/14 forwards on this team, no need for a zhamnov kovalev etc type player, the only player that would interest me now is a konowalchuk player.

look at this depth:

tanguay-forsberg-hejduk
konowalchuk-sakic-mccormick
kariya-nikolishin-selanne
larsen-hahl-hinote
worrell-moore-cummins
mcallister-brigley-svatos

maybe we could another top 6 players so joe could play with them and keep teemu and paul together if thats what granato wants.

those injuries at the start were a blessing in disguise, we never would have found out about brigley, moore and how valuable mccormick is.

defense is another thing thou:

our #7 is either clark or mcallister, neither can play over 5 minutes a game,

ideally i like lacroix to trade our 2nd not florida's or a boychuk/ballard for a boughner/carney/miller etc, keep skoula for some nice depth and this team is ready, no need to mess it up come the deadline, some small moves only.

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02-17-2004, 11:22 PM
  #7
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Hmmmm...

I think he stays, but if Lacroix makes any reak trades.....he might be the first to go. I still think he's a good depth fit on the club, but if and when Boychuck and a couple other guys are ready, it'll be time for Skoula to go. I think he needs to move before he gets any better, that's the only way I can explain his erratic play.

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02-18-2004, 02:09 AM
  #8
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Skoula for depth?

Well, here's a news-flash:

How about Skoula replacing McAllister at #7?

Of course, that'll mean the Avs gotta pick up a #5-6 blueliner to replace Marty.

But, picture this:

It's the playoffs... and a top-6 D-man goes down (there WILL BE injuries). Who do you want coming in from the "Scratch" list, or coming up from Hershey... to play #6 vs, the Wings? Or vs. the Flyers/Senators?

Big Mack? Clark? D.J. Smith?

I share everyones' shallow confidence in Skoula, but it just might be cheaper (for now) AND safer to keep him... and trade a Pick/Prospect for another depth D-man.

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02-18-2004, 02:48 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBagadonuts
Well, here's a news-flash:

How about Skoula replacing McAllister at #7?

Of course, that'll mean the Avs gotta pick up a #5-6 blueliner to replace Marty.

But, picture this:

It's the playoffs... and a top-6 D-man goes down (there WILL BE injuries). Who do you want coming in from the "Scratch" list, or coming up from Hershey... to play #6 vs, the Wings? Or vs. the Flyers/Senators?

Big Mack? Clark? D.J. Smith?

I share everyones' shallow confidence in Skoula, but it just might be cheaper (for now) AND safer to keep him... and trade a Pick/Prospect for another depth D-man.
I think his trade value might be a little bit higher than some people think, even though he does a lot to hurt it every game, so I think he will probably be used in a trade, as long as there is a dependable D man coming the other way. Teams take chances on players all the time, and Skoula is obviosly still young, and I think a few teams, especially the younger teams, wouldn't mind giving him a shot. After all he does have a lot of playoff experience at a young age, and is very durable, so he could probably easily plug a hole on a younger blueline.

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02-18-2004, 02:51 AM
  #10
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He doesn't seem like the ideal guy to have as a #7. Most likely his confidence will be down the drain and even more prone to mistakes than he already is. Either play him or trade him, if you ask me.

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02-18-2004, 10:02 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
He doesn't seem like the ideal guy to have as a #7. Most likely his confidence will be down the drain and even more prone to mistakes than he already is. Either play him or trade him, if you ask me.
then who do u play if an injury hits one of the top 6?

macallister?

the coaching staff has such little coinfidence that they would rather call-up a career minor leaguer and play mac up front.

clark?

i think he has done well so far but once again the coaching staff doen't have enough confidence to give him over 5min/game, whereas skoula could step in and play up to 20min/game if need be.

u need the depth on d to win cups ie; 2001 we had pratt and muir who stepped in nicely vs st. louis, in 96 we had wolanin and klemm.

detriot has wooley, dallas sweeney or daley, vancouver had slegr, i think brookbank is their new #7, similar player to mac but he actually embraces his role and plays physical.

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02-18-2004, 03:50 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118
I think his trade value might be a little bit higher than some people think, even though he does a lot to hurt it every game,

I don't think it goes both ways like that.

He's decent and things haven't worked for him in Colorado=Decent value
He sucks every night and is a constant liability=Poor trade value

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02-19-2004, 02:53 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller259
I don't think it goes both ways like that.

He's decent and things haven't worked for him in Colorado=Decent value
He sucks every night and is a constant liability=Poor trade value
I don't think his value is high, I just don't think it's as low as you think. I don't even think he has a decent value, I just think it will be more than the 9th round draft, some Avs fans think he will fetch. Why do teams still trade for Valerie Bure, and even Pavel Brendl, Chris Gratton, and Bates Battaglia? Teams take chances on players all the time, and even though Skoula may very well never pan out, GM's know a change of scenery can drastically change a players career, and are more than willing to give it a shot, especially if it's a young team.

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02-19-2004, 10:59 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118
I don't think his value is high, I just don't think it's as low as you think. I don't even think he has a decent value, I just think it will be more than the 9th round draft, some Avs fans think he will fetch. Why do teams still trade for Valerie Bure, and even Pavel Brendl, Chris Gratton, and Bates Battaglia? Teams take chances on players all the time, and even though Skoula may very well never pan out, GM's know a change of scenery can drastically change a players career, and are more than willing to give it a shot, especially if it's a young team.
I think his trade value is higher than we recognize on the Avs, because we mention only his screw-ups (which do suck by the way) and not the things he does well.

A question for comparison sake - what would Liles trade value be? Higher? Why?

I ask this because I look at 2 guys who are the same age (?), but one having a lot more NHL experience than the other. (I'd also make the argument that Liles has probably had a lot more 'coaching' over the past 3-4 yrs than Skoula has, but no matter).

PP QB - Liles good to great, Skoula average to good

Skating - both are excellent

Shot - Liles good, Skoula average

"Ice vision" coming out of own zone - both are good

Ability to move puck out of own zone - both are good

Pinching ability - Liles superior, Skoula average

Pinching judgment - Liles good, Skoula poor

D zone awareness - Liles average, Skoula poor

One on One D ability - Liles (?), Skoula good

Physical D ability (tying up player against boards, skating opposing player into boards, strength on skates in D zone) - Liles poor, Skoula good

So, based on the above (and I'm trying to be objective, but please point out where I'm off)...who's got higher trade value? And, since a trade involving one of these two would be to someone who believes that they project well over time (i.e. there's upside there to be taken advantage of).

In Skoula, you've got the physical tools, which have gotten better over time (and may continue to do so). You've also got questionable to poor judgment, which I think has gotten a little bit better over time - he's at least better this year than last in that regard.

In Liles, you've got mostly excellent judgment, and pretty decent physical tools for a guy his size.

What can you improve on for Liles? Judgment - not much, he's already got this down for the most part. Physicality - don't know how, as he'll get creamed. He's not a shifty little forward, he's a defenseman who needs to be able to handle 20 rugged minutes a night.

What can you improve on for Skoula? Judgment - definitely. Physicality - other than getting nastier, not much. He can handle the rugged stuff.

So - with an eye toward how a trade partner would evaluate the good, young, available D on the Avs in case of a trade...does Skoula really have that low trade value?
AND - with an eye toward upside...should we really trade him? Remember, he's young, good (imho), and cheaper that whatever we'd get in trade, and has a lot of upside.

And by the way, if the Avs are healthy, there's nothing needed on this team for a cup run. Nothing.

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02-19-2004, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRL
does anyone see skoula making it pass the deadline?

lets say we acquire a steady rock on the blueline for some picks ala marchment, wouldnt it make sense to keep liles and skoula and have them compete the 6 spot?

i like the avs to have a decent dman in case of injury no clark or smith or maclisster,

do u think it would be best to keep all our remaining defensemen and just add not subtract as well.

i liked to keep skoula for insurance esp since his value is low right now,

thoughts on skoula and our defense and if we trade skoula are u going to be comfortable with our #7 dman?
NO NO NO NO...man do I despise Skoula and he has had 4 years to do something and thats enough time. He gets to many syupid penalties and just flat out sucks.

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02-19-2004, 02:57 PM
  #16
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Tico on Skoula

That's a pretty good analysis, Tico.

As much as we all tend to react emotionally to Skoula's "judgement" lapses/turnovers, the facts are (a) he's a relatively decent VALUE, (b) we tend to under-value his OVERALL package.

The comparison to Liles is pretty thorough. The only perspective I'd add is re Skoula's superior DURABILITY. It's proven... over nearly 400 NHL games. While Liles offers more of a "Brian Rafalski" kind of package -- and that has its own unique value -- I'd bet on Skoula to have less injury down-time over the next 10 years.

As the immortal "Dirty Harry" once said: "A man has got to know his limitations." Both Skoula and Liles have specific limitations... which can readily be integrated into roster and coaching strategies.

If properly paired, either one COULD play top-4 D if necessary, but I doubt we'd really have confidence with that in the playoffs... THIS season. So, I still come back to the idea of keeping both for depth (@# 6 & 7)... while adding ANOTHER (physical) defenseman. That means farewell to McAllister.

Someone mentioned above that Skoula's a play-him-or-trade-him asset, and I don't disagree with that... for the long term. However, his trade value might be higher this summer IF the Avs go deep AND Skoula plays, say, a solid #6-7 in the playoffs.

While either player is tradeable, keeping both (for now) probably gives us the best #6-7 D depth of all contenders -- assuming the Avs still acquire a solid #5 guy.

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02-19-2004, 04:01 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBagadonuts
That's a pretty good analysis, Tico.

As much as we all tend to react emotionally to Skoula's "judgement" lapses/turnovers, the facts are (a) he's a relatively decent VALUE, (b) we tend to under-value his OVERALL package.

The comparison to Liles is pretty thorough. The only perspective I'd add is re Skoula's superior DURABILITY. It's proven... over nearly 400 NHL games. While Liles offers more of a "Brian Rafalski" kind of package -- and that has its own unique value -- I'd bet on Skoula to have less injury down-time over the next 10 years.

As the immortal "Dirty Harry" once said: "A man has got to know his limitations." Both Skoula and Liles have specific limitations... which can readily be integrated into roster and coaching strategies.

If properly paired, either one COULD play top-4 D if necessary, but I doubt we'd really have confidence with that in the playoffs... THIS season. So, I still come back to the idea of keeping both for depth (@# 6 & 7)... while adding ANOTHER (physical) defenseman. That means farewell to McAllister.

Someone mentioned above that Skoula's a play-him-or-trade-him asset, and I don't disagree with that... for the long term. However, his trade value might be higher this summer IF the Avs go deep AND Skoula plays, say, a solid #6-7 in the playoffs.

While either player is tradeable, keeping both (for now) probably gives us the best #6-7 D depth of all contenders -- assuming the Avs still acquire a solid #5 guy.
Thanks, IBOD. You're dead on about the durability issue - forgot that altogether. I do agree, by the way, that a 5 guy is needed (a la Boughner) who could add some solid intimidating back end to the D lineup.

I also don't think Skoula bounces back as easily as Liles does from being benched (play him or trade him is right on for Marty).

My hope is that we hang on to Skoula (and Liles for that matter) for a while, because I think there's tons of upside in doing so. It isn't like these guys are killing us in the standings or anything. Long term - when we've got an amazing stable of young D waiting in the wings, maybe we wind up moving these guys for the offensive firepower/prospects that the org is lacking...just a thought. In any case, I'll be bummed if we move Skoula, even with his faults.

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02-20-2004, 11:48 PM
  #18
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well u got to like our defense going into the playoffs:

liles-blake(play em with the AMP line and we'll see lots of scoring chances)

skrastins-foote(the shutdown pair)

morris-boughner(played together in calgary, nice physical combination with a mix of skill and grot)

skoula(better that mac/smith/clark as our #7)

hope lacroix doesn't deal despite his recent -6 and god awful play, but foote/blake/morris/boughner all play a tough game and all are injuy prone as a result, so we are going to need skoula eventually.

as for further deals, i am not sure if skoula for sundstrom is a rumour or fan idea but it might make sense, but i'd prefer to keep him as mentioned.

i dont even think lacroix has any interest in a backup, and i dont think it is a pressing need.

one fan mentioned bringing back ville nieminen cuz after seeing ruutu, maltby and avery get foppa off his game we might need a counterstrike especially with hinote's uncertainity. a good pest to stir crap up, cuz worrell is too intimating to be a pest cuz he'll fight negleting the pp.

anyways our recent skid and lacroix track record should make for some interesting few weeks.

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