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Smyl Assigned to Scouting Staff; Gagner Hired as Dir. of Player Development

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Old
06-19-2008, 04:43 PM
  #51
StrictlyCommercial
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The fact that he's been running his own player development centre for a few years makes me think he has quite a bit of experience. Definitely not a crony signing.

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06-19-2008, 04:45 PM
  #52
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I don't understand how someone who played a couple dozen games with the Canucks could ever been seen as a crony signing.

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06-19-2008, 04:57 PM
  #53
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You guys are welcome to Gagner - he never really impressed here in London. He ran the D and that's been by far our weak spot in the past two years in spite of some decent prospects through the system.

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06-19-2008, 05:14 PM
  #54
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So, Gillis hires the father of one of his former clients? Don't know how it will turn out, but I'm not dazzled by the decision.

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06-19-2008, 06:25 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by zepps View Post
So, Gillis hires the father of one of his former clients? Don't know how it will turn out, but I'm not dazzled by the decision.
I wish Mike Sillinger was our GM, I'm sure you crony critics will be quite amused.

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06-19-2008, 06:49 PM
  #56
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Nice to see Gillis bringing in guys with 10 years or more in the NHL. Ex players. NIce to see their point of view in things.

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06-19-2008, 07:02 PM
  #57
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Dave Gagner has accepted this job in order to be closer to his son and have the ability to watch his son play in the NHL.

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06-19-2008, 07:04 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jeffleafsfan91 View Post
Dave Gagner has accepted this job in order to be closer to his son and have the ability to watch his son play in the NHL.
yea? when did you talk to Dave Gagner or Mike Gillis?

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06-19-2008, 07:10 PM
  #59
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I wish Mike Sillinger was our GM, I'm sure you crony critics will be quite amused.
Amusingly Sillinger is on the Isles and I could see something crazy like that happening. Also wouldn't be surprised to see him trade everyone as many times as he could to make them go through what he went through.

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06-19-2008, 07:22 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by zepps View Post
So, Gillis hires the father of one of his former clients? Don't know how it will turn out, but I'm not dazzled by the decision.
I'm not sure about this, but Dave may also have been a Gillis client. Either way, the two have apparently known each other for some time.

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06-19-2008, 07:42 PM
  #61
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Smyl has been bounced around the organization basically because he has done a poor job where ever they put him. Testimony to that is his movement out of the his present position. If he was doing a good job he would certainly have been retained in that position. Earlier he did a horrible job of coaching the Moose.

Seems to me that sliding Smyl into scouting collegiate hockey does little for the franchise. Indeed the US colleges can be a good source of free agent signings. (not that it has ever been used by the Canucks for some unknown reason). If Gillis wants to get serious about US colleges there are lot of people around with far more familarity to that situation than Stan Smyl.

Moreover there are not getting anyone with any real experience in player development at the pro level in Gagner. He has absolutely zero track record at this level.

Seems to me that, so far Gillis, has pondered like Hamlet over every decision and then made a decision you could have made in five minutes. Up to this point has basically added some of his own 'old boys' to the existing 'old boy' set up. If anything the country club is expanding.

I don't know how you can be impressed with what has happened to date.

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06-19-2008, 07:58 PM
  #62
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Agreed with the comments on Smyl...just a guy not well suited for any position in the organization, be it coaching or directing or what have you. At the same time, it's like any job; if Smyl is not a good performer, and Gillis truly wants accountability, he should be let go and allowed to remain with the alumni program or something.

~Canucklehead~

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06-20-2008, 02:11 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Smyl has been bounced around the organization basically because he has done a poor job where ever they put him. Testimony to that is his movement out of the his present position. If he was doing a good job he would certainly have been retained in that position. Earlier he did a horrible job of coaching the Moose.

Seems to me that sliding Smyl into scouting collegiate hockey does little for the franchise. Indeed the US colleges can be a good source of free agent signings. (not that it has ever been used by the Canucks for some unknown reason). If Gillis wants to get serious about US colleges there are lot of people around with far more familarity to that situation than Stan Smyl.

Moreover there are not getting anyone with any real experience in player development at the pro level in Gagner. He has absolutely zero track record at this level.

Seems to me that, so far Gillis, has pondered like Hamlet over every decision and then made a decision you could have made in five minutes. Up to this point has basically added some of his own 'old boys' to the existing 'old boy' set up. If anything the country club is expanding.

I don't know how you can be impressed with what has happened to date.
Fair enough, but it's not surprising that Gillis is bringing in the people he knows and has relationships with; the true test will be if he has the stones to fire them if they prove themselves to be incapable.

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06-20-2008, 02:24 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Smyl has been bounced around the organization basically because he has done a poor job where ever they put him. Testimony to that is his movement out of the his present position. If he was doing a good job he would certainly have been retained in that position. Earlier he did a horrible job of coaching the Moose.

Seems to me that sliding Smyl into scouting collegiate hockey does little for the franchise. Indeed the US colleges can be a good source of free agent signings. (not that it has ever been used by the Canucks for some unknown reason). If Gillis wants to get serious about US colleges there are lot of people around with far more familarity to that situation than Stan Smyl.

Moreover there are not getting anyone with any real experience in player development at the pro level in Gagner. He has absolutely zero track record at this level.

Seems to me that, so far Gillis, has pondered like Hamlet over every decision and then made a decision you could have made in five minutes. Up to this point has basically added some of his own 'old boys' to the existing 'old boy' set up. If anything the country club is expanding.

I don't know how you can be impressed with what has happened to date.
To be expected that he'll hire some people he knows.

However, he and Mellanby had no prior relationship and Mellanby is apparently really well-regarded by those close to the game. He and Gilman would also have had no prior relationship. And although Walter has a connection to the organization, I'm pretty sure he and Gillis didn't have a previous connection, either. So out of 4 hirings so far, one (Gagner) has a personal connection to Gillis. I don't think that's too unreasonable, and certainly not a 'Gillis old boy network'.

I agree that it's disappointing to see Smyl re-assigned to another position where he could have an impact on our on-ice product, rather than something in community relations or whatever.

It's good to see the scouting department being changed and expanded. Unfortunately, with scouting changes, it takes a really long time to evaluate whether these moves are positive or not. Hopefully they are. Things couldn't get any worse, anyway.

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06-20-2008, 03:11 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Seems to me that, so far Gillis, has pondered like Hamlet over every decision and then made a decision you could have made in five minutes. Up to this point has basically added some of his own 'old boys' to the existing 'old boy' set up. If anything the country club is expanding.
Wow, couldn't have possibly said it better.

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06-20-2008, 04:45 AM
  #66
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Wow, couldn't have possibly said it better.
Again, I don't get how hiring a bunch of guys whom Gillis hasn't worked with before, and who have no prior significant connection to this team, and haven't been around the league in various front office/scouting positions constitutes an 'old boys club'.

Gillis and Gagner have a prior connection. But he's the only guy hired who has any connection to the GM or to the team. Mellanby and Gilman had no prior connection to the team or the GM whatsoever, and were presumably hired because they were the best possible people for their roles (which is exactly what everyone has been asking for!). Walter has been a broadcaster here, but also has no connection to Gillis, and no ties to anyone else in the front office. These aren't exactly a bunch of Gillis 'cronies'.

I would expect we'll see some scouts cut, but you can't do that before the draft because a) you still need to run the draft, and b) fired scouts will turn up at other NHL clubs before draft day with our draft list. Hopefully Delorme leads the parade out of town. If he's still here come the start of next season, I'll have questions, too.

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06-20-2008, 07:31 AM
  #67
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Don't know that you can have it both ways - saying on one hand it is only natural that Gillis will sign people he is familar with and then saying he doesn't have a prior connection to the these people.

Anyhow hiring Gagner - a person with so little pro experience - must be based on the relationship they have. Maybe it's a good hiring but their personal history must surley be a factor.

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06-20-2008, 09:29 AM
  #68
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Don't know that you can have it both ways - saying on one hand it is only natural that Gillis will sign people he is familar with and then saying he doesn't have a prior connection to the these people.
I think MS was making the point that there will be some people hired that Gillis is familiar with. In Gagner's case it was someone he hd a connection to, in Mellanby, Walter, and Gilman's, there wasn't. It wouldn't make sense to completely shut out anyone he knows simply because he knows them.

Quote:
Anyhow hiring Gagner - a person with so little pro experience - must be based on the relationship they have. Maybe it's a good hiring but their personal history must surley be a factor.
Extrapolating from the Walter hiring, it's clear that Gillis places value on people with education and people who have business experience. Gagner has been going to school since he finished his hockey career and has been running a player development center. No, he doesn't have experience in running and NHL player development department, but I'm guessing Gillis felt he could transfer his skills from his other experiences to be successful in this position.

For what it's worth, he did say that there would be a player development team - he could always bring in people with NHL development experience to work with Gagner on the process.

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Old
06-20-2008, 11:01 AM
  #69
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yes it would.

that's not to say that it's wrong to do so... I'd have no problem with the team hiring say Linden to the front office, and Larionov to the coaching staff....

just an observation that after all the complaining fans have been doing of not bringing in people that have had success elsewhere, and instead hiring former canucks to fill management positions.

I don't think we'll see this trend necessarily changing either... a lot of clubs work the same way... they bring in people with former NHL experience that want to be a part of this club in management/coaching positions, and often times that ends up being former players wanting to return to the organization in another capacity.

without looking at the actual stats, if I had to guess, I'd say that at least half the teams in the NHL probably operate the same way??
Part of where an old boys club derives from is the need to trust the person you hire. It is far easier to develop that trust when you already know the person and have trusted him as a team mate in the past. It also helps to have things in common and remembering the days they played together is a solid foundation to renew that comradity. Equally, it is not uncommon to harbour a mistrust or dislike of other team's better players. They were who caused you problems in the past, but they are also likely the smarter, better candidates if someone is hired from another team.

I don't blame Gillis wanting to keep Smyl in the organization. He was loved by the fans in his era as Linden is today and it is questionable as to who has had a greater love for the team between them. These two players are our modern day Cyclone Taylors & smart teams find ways to keep them involved with the organization. They have a lot to teach the younger players, both in how to play in the NHL and how to develop heart.

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Old
06-20-2008, 11:05 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Again, I don't get how hiring a bunch of guys whom Gillis hasn't worked with before, and who have no prior significant connection to this team, and haven't been around the league in various front office/scouting positions constitutes an 'old boys club'.

Gillis and Gagner have a prior connection. But he's the only guy hired who has any connection to the GM or to the team. Mellanby and Gilman had no prior connection to the team or the GM whatsoever, and were presumably hired because they were the best possible people for their roles (which is exactly what everyone has been asking for!). Walter has been a broadcaster here, but also has no connection to Gillis, and no ties to anyone else in the front office. These aren't exactly a bunch of Gillis 'cronies'.

I would expect we'll see some scouts cut, but you can't do that before the draft because a) you still need to run the draft, and b) fired scouts will turn up at other NHL clubs before draft day with our draft list. Hopefully Delorme leads the parade out of town. If he's still here come the start of next season, I'll have questions, too.
Yeah, my post was before I read yours, and yours was quite convincing. I guess the issue is clouded by all the names associated, accurately or not, with Gillis that are ex-clients (Demitra, Cammeleri etc.)

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Old
06-20-2008, 02:50 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Don't know that you can have it both ways - saying on one hand it is only natural that Gillis will sign people he is familar with and then saying he doesn't have a prior connection to the these people.

Anyhow hiring Gagner - a person with so little pro experience - must be based on the relationship they have. Maybe it's a good hiring but their personal history must surley be a factor.
As someone else just said, it's only natural he's going to bring in a couple people he has a prior relationship with. But the Gagner signing is hardly a trend, and in fact for the most part he seems to be going for fresh people whom he hasn't had any dealing in the past at all.

And it isn't like Gagner was some schmuck ex-player running a used-car dealership in Moose Jaw. He was considered a really bright guy during his career, has pursued an education since retiring, took the initiative to create a player development center in Ontario (which is pretty significant) and has been coaching in major-junior. For a youngish guy, it's a pretty good resume and there's no reason to think he'll be a stiff here at this point.

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Old
06-20-2008, 09:16 PM
  #72
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I know there had been some complaints in the past that the Canucks don't sign undrafted college free agents, but it looks like Gillis wants to change that and it is the purpose of Smyl's new position:

Quote:
"I don't know if another team has a person in that area but I feel it's vitally important to our health moving forward to have a dedicated guy in college hockey," Gillis said.

"We need to have a complete handle of all those available players. We don't have a history of signing college players. Other teams do, and they're getting results from it."
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...9-11c8dd54a2ad

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Old
06-21-2008, 12:56 PM
  #73
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I think bringing in Dave Gagner is a smart move for the Canucks as it would be for any NHL team. There are several reason for my thinking this.

One-He has experience in the NHL-a fairly long and successful career in the NHL. Note: he's not a big guy.
Two-he's stayed very actively involved with hockey, he's current with his knowledge about the players coming up and in the 87, 88, 89, 90, 91 age range. Especially with players from the east. That has current immediate value.
Three-his son Sam was one of the youngest players to start straight away in the NHL. Now some of this was Edmonton giving him the chance but Sam had to do something with the chance. Plus having the physical and mental preparation that Dave no doubt had a big part in.

He has experience and knows what it takes and what you need to do in order to be successful.

The Canucks organization is looking better and better to me.

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