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We traded for D and Drafted D--Now what?

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Old
06-22-2008, 09:43 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
No, the point is, even if Boynton plays great JM had to trade Jokinen to get him when he could have got him for nothing last season.
This is your logic:
"Samsonov was on waivers too, lets yell at JM for not picking up him."
"Recchi was on waivers also, lets bash JM because he didn't get us a scoring winger"

People show up on waivers, it happens.

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06-22-2008, 09:58 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
This is your logic:
"Samsonov was on waivers too, lets yell at JM for not picking up him."
"Recchi was on waivers also, lets bash JM because he didn't get us a scoring winger"

People show up on waivers, it happens.
The whole point about getting someone on waivers is that you get him for NOTHING, since teams are just trying to get rid of salary. Picking up guys Samsonov is different, he would have been free. We took Boynton and his inflated salary in a trade, meaning we are accepting his value when in fact it is phoenix that probably forced us to take him so they can finally clear the salary which they couldn't do before becasue NO OTHER team was willing to pay his salary. In a sense we traded Ollie and 3 mill for Ballard and a 49th pick, that is what a salary dump is -- if martin could understand this concept maybe he could have at leaset gotten rid of stumpel in the deal.

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06-22-2008, 10:15 AM
  #28
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Spector, Lyle Richardson, had this on his site today.

"MIAMI HERALD/PALM BEACH POST: both report the trading of Olli Jokinen leaves a big gap offensively for the Panthers, which GM Jacques Martin will likely try to address now that he's bolstered his blueline corps with the return from the Coyotes of Keith Ballard and Nick Boynton from the Jokinen deal. The Herald's Geroge Richards reports Martin could look to signing affordable forwards in this summer's UFA market like he did last summer by signing Richard Zednik, Radek Dvorak and Brett McLean, while Brian Biggane of the Post reports Martin won't buy out the contracts of Dvorak, Ville Peltonen and Jozef Stumpel.

SPECTOR'S NOTE: If Martin believes stocking up with inexpensive but average UFA forwarads will compensate for the loss of Jokinen, he's wrong. Expect the Panthers to be a defensive-minded, low-scoring team next season."


Spector IS NOT LIKE EKLUND. He merely reports rumors that are printed in newspapers and then comments on them. He doesn't claim to have unnamed sources feeding him information. His comments on hockey are usually very insightful and he has a blog on Fox Sports.

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:29 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
This is your logic:
"Samsonov was on waivers too, lets yell at JM for not picking up him."
"Recchi was on waivers also, lets bash JM because he didn't get us a scoring winger"

People show up on waivers, it happens.
LOL, what is the most common reason people get put on waivers?

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06-22-2008, 10:36 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Slick Cat View Post
The whole point about getting someone on waivers is that you get him for NOTHING, since teams are just trying to get rid of salary. Picking up guys Samsonov is different, he would have been free. We took Boynton and his inflated salary in a trade, meaning we are accepting his value when in fact it is phoenix that probably forced us to take him so they can finally clear the salary which they couldn't do before becasue NO OTHER team was willing to pay his salary. In a sense we traded Ollie and 3 mill for Ballard and a 49th pick, that is what a salary dump is -- if martin could understand this concept maybe he could have at leaset gotten rid of stumpel in the deal.
EXACTLY, textbook salary dump!!!!!!!!

Panthers Defensemen:
Bo - $5 - $6m
Allen - $3m
Van Ryn - $3m
Boyton - $3m
Ballard - $2.5m
Skrastins - $2.1m

I think we are going cheap here, let's trade Horton and use some of his money for another high end d-men

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:36 AM
  #31
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No, Bystander, you got it all wrong. JM wanted him to develop in the world renowned PHX system before he plucked this diamond in the rough away from Gretzky and co!

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06-22-2008, 10:37 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
LOL, what is the most common reason people get put on waivers?
Hmmm, let me guess, it's coming to me, it's coming,
To get rid of them?

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06-22-2008, 10:38 AM
  #33
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In all seriousness Boynton wouldn't be a terrible pickup if we got more from PHX such as a top prospect or first round pick and we gave them Stumpel/Peltonen/Dvorak. This is a bad trade, period.

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06-22-2008, 10:39 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
LOL, what is the most common reason people get put on waivers?
Once again you completely dodged my point, nice try. Samsonov and Recchi are high-caliber players that could have helped us tremendously, we chose to skip them. Are you saying Recchi and Samsonov are bad players now because they were put on waivers?

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06-22-2008, 10:44 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
Once again you completely dodged my point, nice try. Samsonov and Recchi are high-caliber players that could have helped us tremendously, we chose to skip them. Are you saying Recchi and Samsonov are bad players now because they were put on waivers?
The whole point in placing a guy on waivers is to get rid of him because he is no good or not worth his salary and the whole point in claiming a guy on waivers is you see something in him that his previous team didn't and you don't have to give up any assets to acquire him and in the case of re-entry waivers, which is what Recchi and Samsonov were on, you only assume half the value of his contract, and both Recchi and Samsonov's contracts expired at the end of the season, so you assume very little risk.

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06-22-2008, 10:45 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
Once again you completely dodged my point, nice try. Samsonov and Recchi are high-caliber players that could have helped us tremendously, we chose to skip them. Are you saying Recchi and Samsonov are bad players now because they were put on waivers?
No need to dodge you, I'm saying that if we wanted Boyton we could have picked him up for NOTHING - expect money. You don't trade a valuable asset to acquire something that was free only a few months ago. If you don't understand what Phoenix did here then I can't really explain it.

BTW, in regards to Samsonov and Recchi most on this board were dying for Jacques to at least take a flyer on one of those guys because???? that's right we needed some offense last year, if you remember he didn't, our competitors did and they were both productive.

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06-22-2008, 10:47 AM
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Hoax, you're 100% wrong. If JM wanted to pick up Boynton and thought so highly of him he could have picked him up. This isn't a case of him being in PHX for five years after being picked up on waivers, this was last season!

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06-22-2008, 10:47 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Bystander View Post
No need to dodge you, I'm saying that if we wanted Boyton we could have picked him up for NOTHING - expect money. You don't trade a valuable asset to acquire something that was free only a few months ago. If you don't understand what Phoenix did here then I can't really explain it.

BTW, in regards to Samsonov and Recchi most on this board were dying for Jacques to at least take a flyer on one of those guys because???? that's right we needed some offense last year, if you remember he didn't, our competitors did and they were both productive.
Absolutely correct sir.

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06-22-2008, 10:53 AM
  #39
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From today's paper:

Quote:
The morning after the Panthers traded their leading scorer, 29-year-old center Olli Jokinen, to Phoenix for puck-moving defensemen Kreith Ballard, 25, and Nick Boynton, 29, they used three of their five draft picks on defensemen.

"The draft happened to be deep in defense," Martin said. "Thats why we seem to have gone that way this year."
I think this goes along with my idea that since he did goaltending last year, and D this year. Whats to stop him from improving our offense next off-season? And I think we will make it to the playoffs with this D-corps, you guys really don't understand how truly solid it is.

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No need to dodge you, I'm saying that if we wanted Boyton we could have picked him up for NOTHING - expect money. You don't trade a valuable asset to acquire something that was free only a few months ago. If you don't understand what Phoenix did here then I can't really explain it.

BTW, in regards to Samsonov and Recchi most on this board were dying for Jacques to at least take a flyer on one of those guys because???? that's right we needed some offense last year, if you remember he didn't, our competitors did and they were both productive.
Yea, same with samsonov. We could have gotten him for nothing and look how amazing he turned out to be. Recchi was getting older and needed a change of scenery, and samsonov just needed to get the hell out of where he was. Boynton is a top-4 defensmen and I him being on waivers does NOT change that. I know what PHX did here, but its not like our scouts didn't do their homework. They definitely looked at Boynton and said must have thought that this guy really is a step up from what we had. Just because someone is on waivers doesn't make them a bad player, maybe they just aren't good under that system just like Stewart sucks with ours and is amazing on Rochester's. I wouldn't have wanted Recchi, but samsonov would have been nice.

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06-22-2008, 10:57 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
From today's paper:



I think this goes along with my idea that since he did goaltending last year, and D this year. Whats to stop him from improving our offense next off-season? And I think we will make it to the playoffs with this D-corps, you guys really don't understand how truly solid it is.
Salary cap, his sexual gratification from signing as many d-men as possible, his idea that our prospects will fill in...

Next year, off the top of my head I think we will have something like 13 million dollars free plus another 3 if we can dump Van Ryn to make some moves. However, we will need to get some third liners as welll so it wont be all money toward high end scorers.

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06-22-2008, 10:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
From today's paper:



I think this goes along with my idea that since he did goaltending last year, and D this year. Whats to stop him from improving our offense next off-season? And I think we will make it to the playoffs with this D-corps, you guys really don't understand how truly solid it is.


Yea, same with samsonov. We could have gotten him for nothing and look how amazing he turned out to be. Recchi was getting older and needed a change of scenery, and samsonov just needed to get the hell out of where he was. Boynton is a top-4 defensmen and I him being on waivers does NOT change that. I know what PHX did here, but its not like our scouts didn't do their homework. They definitely looked at Boynton and said must have thought that this guy really is a step up from what we had. Just because someone is on waivers doesn't make them a bad player, maybe they just aren't good under that system just like Stewart sucks with ours and is amazing on Rochester's. I wouldn't have wanted Recchi, but samsonov would have been nice.
There were people who wanted Samsonov, I didn't b/c he is too expensive but a lot of people wanted him. Stewart is amazing in Rochester? Amazing?

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06-22-2008, 11:00 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Salary cap, his sexual gratification from signing as many d-men as possible, his idea that our prospects will fill in...

Next year, off the top of my head I think we will have something like 13 million dollars free plus another 3 if we can dump Van Ryn to make some moves. However, we will need to get some third liners as welll so it wont be all money toward high end scorers.
They are also still thinking about buying out stumpel but peltonen and dvorak are staying. If we free up the rest of our d (which we will) we will have a good ammount of money to spend.

Name a free agent you want, because you make it seem like theres SOOOO many out there. The best ones are Hossa (not happening), Jagr (not happening), and Rolston (maybe..)

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06-22-2008, 11:01 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
From today's paper:



I think this goes along with my idea that since he did goaltending last year, and D this year. Whats to stop him from improving our offense next off-season? And I think we will make it to the playoffs with this D-corps, you guys really don't understand how truly solid it is.


Yea, same with samsonov. We could have gotten him for nothing and look how amazing he turned out to be. Recchi was getting older and needed a change of scenery, and samsonov just needed to get the hell out of where he was. Boynton is a top-4 defensmen and I him being on waivers does NOT change that. I know what PHX did here, but its not like our scouts didn't do their homework. They definitely looked at Boynton and said must have thought that this guy really is a step up from what we had. Just because someone is on waivers doesn't make them a bad player, maybe they just aren't good under that system just like Stewart sucks with ours and is amazing on Rochester's.
OMG, this is hard to read, no one is saying Boyton is a bad player (he is avarage), just saying you don't have to give up ASSETS for him when he was available for NOTHING earlier. THIS WAS A SALARY DUMP, why did Jacques not require Phoenix to take Stumpel and his $2.5m if they really wanted Olli? That's what we had to do in order to get Ballard.

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06-22-2008, 11:02 AM
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There were people who wanted Samsonov, I didn't b/c he is too expensive but a lot of people wanted him. Stewart is amazing in Rochester? Amazing?
Not AMAZING but pretty good. Samsonov was a little expensive too, but we had the room, w/e tho he would of left as a UFA.

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OMG, this is hard to read, no one is saying Boyton is a bad player (he is avarage), just saying you don't have to give up ASSETS for him when he was available for NOTHING earlier. THIS WAS A SALARY DUMP, why did Jacques not require Phoenix to take Stumpel and his $2.5m if they really wanted Olli? That's what we had to do in order to get Ballard.
I know he is a ****ing salary dump, I KNOW THAT. Understand now? Damn lol . But yea no one wants stumpel dude. No one. Boynton has his uses but stumpel just sucks. We also have a lot of space to work with as we are far off from the salary cap. They didn't think about buying out Boynton but we are about Stumpel, what does that tell you?

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06-22-2008, 11:03 AM
  #45
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They are also still thinking about buying out stumpel but peltonen and dvorak are staying. If we free up the rest of our d (which we will) we will have a good ammount of money to spend.

Name a free agent you want, because you make it seem like theres SOOOO many out there. The best ones are Hossa (not happening), Jagr (not happening), and Rolston (maybe..)
No, I'm talking about 2009. 2008 is going to be a failure. We shouldn't spend a penny on a UFA. We would be better off holding out for next years class for a long term strategy for this team.

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06-22-2008, 11:05 AM
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Taking on Boynton was a bad move because we didn't dump any salary on PHX. Stumpel for Boynton is almost a wash and any reasonable person wouldn't make such a big deal about having Boynton. Instead, JM the GM thought it would be a better idea to take on more salary.

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06-22-2008, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
No, I'm talking about 2009. 2008 is going to be a failure. We shouldn't spend a penny on a UFA. We would be better off holding out for next years class for a long term strategy for this team.
Lets wait till we're actually losing for all you guys to continue being 100% negative. The season hasn't even started yet and we have a d-corps with 2 potential all-stars in it. Let the season start before you say its over...

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Taking on Boynton was a bad move because we didn't dump any salary on PHX. Stumpel for Boynton is almost a wash and any reasonable person wouldn't make such a big deal about having Boynton. Instead, JM the GM thought it would be a better idea to take on more salary.
We didn't need to dump salary though. WE HAVE A LOT OF ROOM. Do not worry about the salary cap and our money issues. Cohen and JM will.

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06-22-2008, 11:14 AM
  #48
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Not AMAZING but pretty good. Samsonov was a little expensive too, but we had the room, w/e tho he would of left as a UFA.


I know he is a ****ing salary dump, I KNOW THAT. Understand now? Damn lol . But yea no one wants stumpel dude. No one. Boynton has his uses but stumpel just sucks. We also have a lot of space to work with as we are far off from the salary cap. They didn't think about buying out Boynton but we are about Stumpel, what does that tell you?
What that tells me is that we wasted money in more than one area. We took on $3M with Boyton and we still have Stumpel, plus why do you keep talking about the salary cap??? that is an irrelevant number, who says that we are going to spend up to the limit?

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06-22-2008, 11:17 AM
  #49
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What that tells me is that we wasted money in more than one area. We took on $3M with Boyton and we still have Stumpel, plus why do you keep talking about the salary cap??? that is an irrelevant number, who says that we are going to spend up to the limit?
Now that Cohen knows Martin can build a team I guarentee it won't be a problem for Cohen to put in more funds, he already did last year. Last year was I think one of our highest payed teams. Stumpel is still being reviewed (saw that in the paper this morning). And I know you don't think boynton is worth the 3 mil. I don't either but the thing is we have the room to pay it and he is a big help on the D. He plays pretty physical but isn't going to get called for a lot of penalties. He can also play the shutdown role as good as Skrastins and Allen which makes him pretty usefull.

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06-22-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Taking on Boynton was a bad move because we didn't dump any salary on PHX. Stumpel for Boynton is almost a wash and any reasonable person wouldn't make such a big deal about having Boynton. Instead, JM the GM thought it would be a better idea to take on more salary.
But, that's assuming Phoenix was willing to take on Stumpel, which I seriously doubt.

And that's also assuming the loss of 2 forwards (albeit Stumpel may only count as 1/3 of one nowadays) for 2 defenders would look worse from a PR standpoint. For the casual fan, it looks like JM moved Olli for 3 pieces.

May not be much value-wise, but we still haven't got a clue how many GMs backed off on Olli (like Vancouver and Calgary did).

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