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Holland: we like Howard's "potential"

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Old
06-23-2008, 09:40 AM
  #26
caseygraves
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never wrote, said or even thought that McCollum is about "immediate help" ... it's organizational help. Would it help if you actually read what I wrote?
Where did I ever address you specifically? I didn't even quote your post. I have no idea what your talking about, or why your even talking to me...

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06-23-2008, 09:44 AM
  #27
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I can't see any problems in our goaltending.

Play to the deadline with Ozzie and Howard, that's it. Then we'll see if Jimmy is ready and whatsoever. He have to wait and see, not make acquisitions without testing our guys.

Some experienced UFA-signing to out net this offseason would be just ultra stupid move. We have seen, Kenny is not stupid.

Of course if there's bad injuries, then sign someone, but if everything is all good, there's no need for anything.

Then at the deadline, we know some things. If someone struggles, get some experienced help at the deadline. Easy as that.

Even if our goaltenders would suck, we can still be on the top of the west. The main core is in so good fit.

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06-23-2008, 11:09 AM
  #28
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Grand Rapids is going to need another goalie along with Larsson. What I think will happen is that Holland will sign a journeyman veteran to come into camp and compete with Howard to be Ozzie's backup. If it's even close, Howard will get the job and the vet will be waived to GR.

At this point, the job is Howard's to lose.

Oh, and much of what Holland is saying is probably influenced by the fact that he's yet to sign Howard to a new contract. He can't come right out and say "We love Howard and right now have him penciled in as our backup to Ozzie"... that would cost him money.

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06-23-2008, 11:45 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Grand Rapids is going to need another goalie along with Larsson. What I think will happen is that Holland will sign a journeyman veteran to come into camp and compete with Howard to be Ozzie's backup. If it's even close, Howard will get the job and the vet will be waived to GR.

At this point, the job is Howard's to lose.

Oh, and much of what Holland is saying is probably influenced by the fact that he's yet to sign Howard to a new contract. He can't come right out and say "We love Howard and right now have him penciled in as our backup to Ozzie"... that would cost him money.
Jean-Sebastien Aubin maybe? He would probably sign a two-way deal, and he is a decent backup if someone gets injured..

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06-23-2008, 11:50 AM
  #30
gare joyce
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Originally Posted by caseygraves View Post
Where did I ever address you specifically? I didn't even quote your post. I have no idea what your talking about, or why your even talking to me...
"It's not only ESPN ... it's the Detroit media trying to make us panic ..." or words to that effect.

If you mention ESPN, that's me. I have no interest in making you panic. I just report what I hear.

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06-23-2008, 11:57 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by redwingsfan View Post
Jean-Sebastien Aubin maybe? He would probably sign a two-way deal, and he is a decent backup if someone gets injured..
A player like Aubin is exactly what I'm thinking of. Boucher is another.

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06-23-2008, 01:16 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
"It's not only ESPN ... it's the Detroit media trying to make us panic ..." or words to that effect.

If you mention ESPN, that's me. I have no interest in making you panic. I just report what I hear.
You're ESPN??!! So we should take our complaints of poor hockey coverage directly to you?

I was only agreeing with and adding to "worstfaceoffs" comments. But I don't seeing you accusing him of not reading. In fact, I think you have thin skin over your eyes... so quit trying to pull the wool over mine...

If youve "heard" so much about Howard... what have you seen of or from him?

You still haven't answered the question of where you draw the conclusion you made in your comments from...


Last edited by caseygraves: 06-23-2008 at 01:35 PM.
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06-23-2008, 01:26 PM
  #33
gare joyce
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Originally Posted by caseygraves View Post
You're ESPN??!! So we should take our complaints of poor hockey coverage directly to you?

I was only agreeing with and adding to "worstfaceoffs" comments. But I don't seeing you accusing him of not reading. In fact, I think you have thin skin over your eyes... so quit trying to pull the wool over mine...
I'm ESPN when it comes to the hockey draft, yes. You should take your complaints about ESPN's hockey coverage to the Commissioner who decided to hide his league on a network that no one can find. To the point about goaltending and the Detroit pick, I'm not quite sure how much access you have to seeing McCollum or talking to hockey people. I guess your expertise is a little like fishing in the dark. It's the same as fishing in the noonday sun if you have no bait--you don't. Just wait for them to jump into the boat.

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06-23-2008, 02:21 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
I'm ESPN when it comes to the hockey draft, yes. You should take your complaints about ESPN's hockey coverage to the Commissioner who decided to hide his league on a network that no one can find. To the point about goaltending and the Detroit pick, I'm not quite sure how much access you have to seeing McCollum or talking to hockey people. I guess your expertise is a little like fishing in the dark. It's the same as fishing in the noonday sun if you have no bait--you don't. Just wait for them to jump into the boat.
Can we just have the commissioner fired? That would solve many problems, hopefully one of which would be the dreadful "network" coverage (and I use the term network loosely with regard to the NHL's current cable home).

I give you full credit for mocking out a draft with the Wings selecting a goaltender at #30. The majority of the mocks I saw had us selecting a defenseman. And I trust that you've got some pretty good sources & connections, so your info is as accurate as possible. However, I still can't buy that picking McCollum is much of a commentary on Howard. There are a couple of reasons:

1. The only goaltender prospects in Detroit's system are Howard and Larsson. Howard is the likely backup in Detroit next season, and Larsson's probable destination is Grand Rapids of the AHL. After that there's absolutely nobody. McCollum gives Detroit some much needed prospect depth in net, and is in line to take take over in Grand Rapids down the road. There's no doubt that goaltending was the biggest area of need when you consider Howard's graduation to the NHL leaves Larsson as the only prospect in the pipeline.

2. With Hasek's retirement the time for Howard is now. Jimmy will either sink or swim in the NHL, and if he sinks then Kenny Holland will have to bring in an established keeper to be at least a backup. But more likely, Holland would acquire a 1A/1B starter as heir to Osgood. Either way, McCollum will arrive far too late (if he arrives at all) to be of any help in the situation.

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06-23-2008, 03:47 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
I'm ESPN when it comes to the hockey draft, yes. You should take your complaints about ESPN's hockey coverage to the Commissioner who decided to hide his league on a network that no one can find. To the point about goaltending and the Detroit pick, I'm not quite sure how much access you have to seeing McCollum or talking to hockey people. I guess your expertise is a little like fishing in the dark. It's the same as fishing in the noonday sun if you have no bait--you don't. Just wait for them to jump into the boat.
... and you still haven't answered where you draw your conclusion that Howie is only a 'stopgap', and isn't a 'franchise goalie' from.
pure speculation because of the pick, or reliable deduction based on credible information?

your avoidance (and complete lack of any hint of this sentiment from Wings' management) is leading many to suspect the former.

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06-23-2008, 04:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
I'm ESPN when it comes to the hockey draft, yes. You should take your complaints about ESPN's hockey coverage to the Commissioner who decided to hide his league on a network that no one can find.
Gary, to be quite fair ESPN shoo'd the NHL out the door by refusing to sign a decent deal or get the league on ESPN (as opposed to the deuce) regularly. At the time there wasn't a huge spread between the penetration of the deuce and of Versus. I understand why that was the thought process, the NHL didn't draw and the channel is about eyeballs... but painting that as a one-way parting all the fault of the NHL is kind of silly.

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06-23-2008, 04:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
However, I still can't buy that picking McCollum is much of a commentary on Howard.
So you're saying Howard's Detroit career, even if successful, would only span 5 years?

See, if Detroit was wholly confident in Howard being the guy they wouldn't need to draft a goalie early this past draft. They have Larsson in the hopper, they have Ozzie for a couple more years, and if Howard was in the forefront of their thoughts as a starting goalie in Detroit for the 5 years after Ozzie's gone that late 1st pick would have already hit their prime and been pining away in the minors somewhere while Howard was succeeding as a starter, leaving them with nowhere for that 1st rounder to play.

They'd draft a goalie later and take of a flyer on a guy with maybe a longer development window because they were already pretty sure the starter's spot was locked up.

Honestly, there's no way they bring Larsson over so soon if they were sold on Howard, either.

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06-23-2008, 04:13 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
I'm ESPN when it comes to the hockey draft, yes. You should take your complaints about ESPN's hockey coverage to the Commissioner who decided to hide his league on a network that no one can find. To the point about goaltending and the Detroit pick, I'm not quite sure how much access you have to seeing McCollum or talking to hockey people. I guess your expertise is a little like fishing in the dark. It's the same as fishing in the noonday sun if you have no bait--you don't. Just wait for them to jump into the boat.
While I understand your point this is something that is a major pet peeve of mine. The claim that no one can find Versus says a lot more about the general public than it does about the channel itself. I get the point you're trying to make which is that Versus or OLN as it was before isn't a well-known channel yet is kinda silly, it's getting there, if 80-90 million homes have it, people have heard of it. But back to the pet peeve, if people seriously are too dumb to find a channel these days they have a lot more problems than just trying to find a hockey game. These days information is at our fingertips, most people probably have their cable providers 1800 number memorized and the rest probably know how to use their guide on their digital cable box. My Mom who doesn't even know how to use the DVD player can find random channels through the guide.

So while your critisizim is valid and well recieved (though I feel like the NHL on ESPN as their major network provider is a detriment more than a valuable asset, that's another issue though) I know people who seriously act like they cannot find the channel and believe it's a legit argument. It's the opposite, it shows how stupid they are, not the NHL.

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06-23-2008, 04:16 PM
  #39
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he looked really good when detroit had him in net this season. I woudnt mind looking at what he can do as number 2 this year

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06-23-2008, 04:39 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
So you're saying Howard's Detroit career, even if successful, would only span 5 years?

See, if Detroit was wholly confident in Howard being the guy they wouldn't need to draft a goalie early this past draft. They have Larsson in the hopper, they have Ozzie for a couple more years, and if Howard was in the forefront of their thoughts as a starting goalie in Detroit for the 5 years after Ozzie's gone that late 1st pick would have already hit their prime and been pining away in the minors somewhere while Howard was succeeding as a starter, leaving them with nowhere for that 1st rounder to play.

They'd draft a goalie later and take of a flyer on a guy with maybe a longer development window because they were already pretty sure the starter's spot was locked up.

Honestly, there's no way they bring Larsson over so soon if they were sold on Howard, either.
Let's assume Howard becomes a solid #1. Osgood is turning 36. Who is going to back up Howard in a few years when Ozzie is retired? You say Larsson. Well, he's never even played a professional game in North America. There are no assurances Larsson will pan out.

McCollum is a solid 3-5 years from the NHL, if he ever makes it that far. He's got a long way to go to even reach where Howard is currently. And Detroit must provide GR with a goaltender per their affiliation agreement. By the time McCollum is under contract, if he's signed, Larsson will be leaving Grand Rapids (either to the NHL or back to Europe).

This is a very simple matter of the Wings having 1 goaltender in the pipeline assuming Howard graduates. That screams out for a high draft pick to fill the hole, particularly when only one goaltender was taken ahead of pick #30 in a draft which was regarded to be very deep draft at the position.

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06-23-2008, 07:04 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
A player like Aubin is exactly what I'm thinking of. Boucher is another.

Who cares let Howard play for the wings next season it's not like we are gonna be fighting for a playoff spot... if its that big of a problem than adress it at the deadline (Curtis Joseph signing this year) or through a trade at the deadline. i dont believe we will need to do this because i think howard will be just fine in a backup role.

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06-23-2008, 07:40 PM
  #42
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Who cares let Howard play for the wings next season it's not like we are gonna be fighting for a playoff spot... if its that big of a problem than adress it at the deadline (Curtis Joseph signing this year) or through a trade at the deadline. i dont believe we will need to do this because i think howard will be just fine in a backup role.
Thats not what we are talking about.. We want Howard as our backup too, but signing a veteran #3 on a two-way deal isnt a bad idea.. If either Howard or Osgood gets injured both Aubin and Boucher are capable of being a backup.. It would probably be good for Larsson to get some competition in GR aswell. And he could probably learn a lot from a veteran goalie..

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06-23-2008, 09:16 PM
  #43
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... and you still haven't answered where you draw your conclusion that Howie is only a 'stopgap', and isn't a 'franchise goalie' from.
pure speculation because of the pick, or reliable deduction based on credible information?

your avoidance (and complete lack of any hint of this sentiment from Wings' management) is leading many to suspect the former.
Five pro scouts all told me the same thing. So it's the latter. The only thing that's speculation is (cough) your speculation about my sources.

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06-23-2008, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
Five pro scouts all told me the same thing. So it's the latter. The only thing that's speculation is (cough) your speculation about my sources.
Five pro scouts that weren't associated with the Red Wings? Good thing Detroit doesn't listen to the other scouts out there.

honestly I don't think any opposing scout has any idea how the Wings plan to use Howard.

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06-23-2008, 11:05 PM
  #45
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Five pro scouts all told me the same thing. So it's the latter. The only thing that's speculation is (cough) your speculation about my sources.
for a journalist, you sure make an awful lot of assumptions and jump to a lot of conclusions (to which your Ombudsman has dedicated a recent column.)
i asked if your analysis was based on speculation or information (out of genuine curiosity.) until now, there has been zero credible information that would imply that Jimmy's anything but our future #1.
it can be/has been argued (as Winged Wheel covered this), but the credibility of your sources is debatable. unless they're scouts from within our own organization (if they are, fine, no more questioning of source legitimacy), they're only (cough) speculating on our plans for Howie.

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06-24-2008, 12:24 AM
  #46
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I don't think the Detroit management sees Howard as a long term solution as a #1 guy. Osgood is now 36 the clock is ticking for them to do something.

I expect Detroit will make a trade and I wouldn't be shocked to see Atlanta's Kari Lehtonen end up there as Osgood's heir apparent.

I speculated about this on my blog, but the only position the Thrashers are deep at is goal and the Wings are about to have 10 D under contract. A trade seems like a natural fit that would fill a need on both teams.

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06-24-2008, 05:14 AM
  #47
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for a journalist, you sure make an awful lot of assumptions and jump to a lot of conclusions (to which your Ombudsman has dedicated a recent column.)
i asked if your analysis was based on speculation or information (out of genuine curiosity.) until now, there has been zero credible information that would imply that Jimmy's anything but our future #1.
it can be/has been argued (as Winged Wheel covered this), but the credibility of your sources is debatable. unless they're scouts from within our own organization (if they are, fine, no more questioning of source legitimacy), they're only (cough) speculating on our plans for Howie.
Actually, five pro scouts amount to independent industry consensus. If you think that you could get a truthful and clear-eyed assessment of Howard's prospects from someone in the Wings' organization, you're dreaming in Technicolor and just don't know how this works. Our ombudsman does a wonderful job ... and I have never been cited in any of her missives. I don't make assumptions. I just report. And Howard might be a No. 1 at some point--but still a stopgap until a franchise goaltender emerges, arrives in trade and signs as a UFA. At no point in his career will Howard be one of the ten best goaltenders in the league ... which is the bare minimum of expectations of a franchise goaltender. Not in two years' time, not in five years' time.

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06-24-2008, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by gare joyce View Post
Actually, five pro scouts amount to independent industry consensus. If you think that you could get a truthful and clear-eyed assessment of Howard's prospects from someone in the Wings' organization, you're dreaming in Technicolor and just don't know how this works. Our ombudsman does a wonderful job ... and I have never been cited in any of her missives. I don't make assumptions. I just report. And Howard might be a No. 1 at some point--but still a stopgap until a franchise goaltender emerges, arrives in trade and signs as a UFA. At no point in his career will Howard be one of the ten best goaltenders in the league ... which is the bare minimum of expectations of a franchise goaltender. Not in two years' time, not in five years' time.
You mean not every Red Wing prospect turns into a MVP candidate?


It is something of a warning sign when a guy doesn't get into pro athlete shape until after several years of college and minor league pro.

Often goalies ENJOY playing on so-so teams in the minors because they see a lot of shots and action. I can't say I've heard many of them complain about being "bored" as a few posters stated.

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06-24-2008, 07:57 AM
  #49
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You mean not every Red Wing prospect turns into a MVP candidate?


It is something of a warning sign when a guy doesn't get into pro athlete shape until after several years of college and minor league pro.

Often goalies ENJOY playing on so-so teams in the minors because they see a lot of shots and action. I can't say I've heard many of them complain about being "bored" as a few posters stated.
I think that's fair comment.

From the people I spoke to, Howard's stock wasn't as high as Elliott's and he was the second last pick in Howard's draft year.

Price, Scheneider, Elliott, Pavelec & Rask (prospects the same age or a year or two younger) are either ahead or well head of Howard. Leclaire, Lehtonen, Ward, Mike Smith and maybe Toivenen, (players a year or two older than him) are just a few that are well ahead of him in development--at the same stage, they've been better in the NHL than he's been a level lower. You don't even have to bother with the likes of Bernier, Mason and others a few years younger and the class of well-established NHLers three or four years older--it's hard to mention Howard in the same sentence as these guys. Maybe Howard breaks out at a somewhat advanced age and becomes an all-star ... if you want to take that bet straight up, I'll take a piece of the action. And a lot of NHL scouts would do the same.


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06-24-2008, 08:40 AM
  #50
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Let's assume Howard becomes a solid #1. Osgood is turning 36. Who is going to back up Howard in a few years when Ozzie is retired? You say Larsson. Well, he's never even played a professional game in North America. There are no assurances Larsson will pan out.

McCollum is a solid 3-5 years from the NHL, if he ever makes it that far. He's got a long way to go to even reach where Howard is currently. And Detroit must provide GR with a goaltender per their affiliation agreement. By the time McCollum is under contract, if he's signed, Larsson will be leaving Grand Rapids (either to the NHL or back to Europe).

This is a very simple matter of the Wings having 1 goaltender in the pipeline assuming Howard graduates. That screams out for a high draft pick to fill the hole, particularly when only one goaltender was taken ahead of pick #30 in a draft which was regarded to be very deep draft at the position.
So let me get this straight. You're saying the Wings spent a #1 pick in the NHL draft on a guy they want to be a backup netminder?

DJ, come on. If this was a question of filling a hole for freaking Grand Rapids the team could draft any guy anywhere but the first round in the draft or sign a scrub vet to man the pipes down there for a couple years. Detroit could have picked Dustin Tokarski 5 rounds later.

The Wings spent a #1 because they wanted a young probable starting goalie in 5 years. They want a young starting goalie in 5 years because they aren't sure they have one now. That's on Howard.

Come on, seriously. If Detroit was sold on Howard... and I mean totally sold, as in 'Oh yeah, he's a #1, no doubt', do you think there's any way they spend a #1 at that same position? There's just no freaking way. Not with Larsson already in the system. Not with the draft being, as you yourself said, very deep at the position when only 1 of those guys was gone. Clearly they are putting together a pretty big contingency plan because they've got some questions about Jimmy Howard's NHL future.

They'd move the pick and get a couple #2's like they did the year they got Emmerton and Matthias if they didn't. But no, they saw a need and drafted for it.

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