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06-22-2008, 12:16 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
What you fail to realize that even if our D-core is as good or slightly better or forwards are significantly worse. It isn't even close. We might have the worst forwards in the league! We might be TOP 30 in forwards! Also, your d-core only gets you so far. Defense is a team responsibility.
False. Jokinen had 0 ES goals last 25 games. Horton will now play more minutes, and wit hanother year of development he should make it to around 40 goals with a good ammount of assists. And we also just pumped a huge ammount of work ethic and character into our team with ballard and boynton

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06-22-2008, 12:20 PM
  #27
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False. Jokinen had 0 ES goals last 25 games. Horton will now play more minutes, and wit hanother year of development he should make it to around 40 goals with a good ammount of assists. And we also just pumped a huge ammount of work ethic and character into our team with ballard and boynton
LOL @ the Jokinen bashing lately. Its ridiculous. Watch him put up 90+ points in PHX. The guy went through a slump under a horrible, horrible coach. A new coach would have been perfect for Jokinen. But no, lets trade him . More minutes? How many? 2 minutes? Horton will not make it to around 40 goals. LOL

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06-22-2008, 12:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Top 9 would equal 9th place.

Anaheim
Detroit
Montreal
Boston
San Jose
Nashville
Calgary
Dallas
Minnesota
CBJ
Vancouver
New Jersey
NYR
O, I forgot about Pittsburgh for teams with better D in the east.

So yeah, our D is average to a little above average.
Again, idk how you can say CLB, NJ, and NYR have better defenses than us.

DET
DAL
ANA
MON
VAN
NAS
STL
FLA
SJ

We are somewhere between 7-9 IMO.

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06-22-2008, 12:23 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Again, idk how you can say CLB, NJ, and NYR have better defenses than us.

DET
DAL
ANA
MON
VAN
NAS
STL
FLA
SJ

We are somewhere between 7-9 IMO.
This ones pretty accurate...Although I think we are better than St. Louis, a lot their defenders are still rookers/sophmores

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06-22-2008, 12:24 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Again, idk how you can say CLB, NJ, and NYR have better defenses than us.

DET
DAL
ANA
MON
VAN
NAS
STL
FLA
SJ

We are somewhere between 7-9 IMO.
Where is Bos? Calgary? NJD and NYR play better team D as does Pitt. Pitt as a team is much better defensively. Minnesota?

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06-22-2008, 12:37 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Top 9 would equal 9th place.

Anaheim
Detroit
Montreal
Boston
San Jose
Nashville
Calgary
Dallas
Minnesota
CBJ
Vancouver
New Jersey
NYR
O, I forgot about Pittsburgh for teams with better D in the east.

So yeah, our D is average to a little above average.

Thank you StatsMachine ! We can do that also, going on NHL.com, and bringing back the stats from last year... They were the best TEAM defence, and they WERE the best !

We have the best defensive-corps in the East, as I said you can also make a case for the Habs but... I'm a Panthers-fan !

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06-22-2008, 12:41 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
What you fail to realize that even if our D-core is as good or slightly better or forwards are significantly worse. It isn't even close. We might have the worst forwards in the league! We might be TOP 30 in forwards! Also, your d-core only gets you so far. Defense is a team responsibility.
Again, you ignore the fact that July 1st hasn't even come yet. Martin said he will evaluate with DeBoer and the rest of his staff next week to decide if they're going to pursue a UFA forward, or if they decide that Matthias/Frolik will probably be ready to contribute big. We scored 10 more goals than NJ last year. Olli scored 34. So we have 23 goals to make up. Between Matthias and a UFA forward, or Matthias and Frolik if he's NHL ready, that's not so hard to equal or maybe slightly fall short of.

D-core only gets you so far? Defense is a team responsibilty? That's rich. Yes, D is a team effort, but if your blueline stinks, then it doesn't matter how much effort you put in. You have to have the right personnel to support a defensive philosophy. If your blueline is Murphy, Wallin, Zhitnik, Berard, Richardson, and Brisebois, your "team effort" means nothing.

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06-22-2008, 12:42 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BabyJagr View Post
Thank you StatsMachine ! We can do that also, going on NHL.com, and bringing back the stats from last year... They were the best TEAM defence, and they WERE the best !

We have the best defensive-corps in the East, as I said you can also make a case for the Habs but...
O there is a strong relationship between team defense and defensemen?

Our d-corps is not good enough to win us games. Ballard is #4 guy on most teams and Boynton is a #5. I don't get why our D improved so much. Quantity does not equal quality!

Bouw is our best d-man but after that it is a sharp drop.

Van Ryn is a wild card and if I had to bet I would say he isn't going to return to form.

Murphy cant play D.

Skrastins wasn't good when he played here. Look at his stats.

Allen is decent but is inconsistent. He has the tools just hasn't been able to put it together.

Welch is basically a 26 year old rookie who has next to no NHL experience.

Ballard is decent, not great, kinda good. #4 guy on any team.

Boyton is an overpaid #5 guy.

Sounds like a great D...

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06-22-2008, 12:45 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Again, you ignore the fact that July 1st hasn't even come yet. Martin said he will evaluate with DeBoer and the rest of his staff next week to decide if they're going to pursue a UFA forward, or if they decide that Matthias/Frolik will probably be ready to contribute big. We scored 10 more goals than NJ last year. Olli scored 34. So we have 23 goals to make up. Between Matthias and a UFA forward, or Matthias and Frolik if he's NHL ready, that's not so hard to equal or maybe slightly fall short of.

D-core only gets you so far? Defense is a team responsibilty? That's rich. Yes, D is a team effort, but if your blueline stinks, then it doesn't matter how much effort you put in. You have to have the right personnel to support a defensive philosophy. If your blueline is Murphy, Wallin, Zhitnik, Berard, Richardson, and Brisebois, your "team effort" means nothing.
Salei is our biggest UFA signing ever. The market isn't even good. We also don't have a lot of cap space b/c we wasted space taking Boynton.

Our D isn't that good when you break it down player by player. Take a look at my post above.

D is a team effort. That is why we should acquire forwards who can score and play D. Our D-core was good enough last year and our forwards were not. Unless you have Anaheim's D core your D wont win you games.

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06-22-2008, 12:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
False. Jokinen had 0 ES goals last 25 games. Horton will now play more minutes, and wit hanother year of development he should make it to around 40 goals with a good ammount of assists. And we also just pumped a huge ammount of work ethic and character into our team with ballard and boynton
Haha Character. Maybe its a North American thing, but character is only a winning and must have characteristic if the talent is there also.

Character is irrelavent when the talent to win isn't there.

I love Horton, and i still firmly believe he will end up being a top 5 player from the 03 Draft in time. However, he isn't ready to lead an Offense yet. Weiss and Booth are complimentary top 6 players. They are the players who often enable teams to win cups, secondary scoring, but thats useless without primary scoring. Right now, to make the post season, we either rely on Horton, Olesz etc breaking out, Frolik, Matthias or Repik being NHL ready to produce offensively, Hossa like player to sign with us, or Vokoun to be incredible. Thats not possible situations i'd like to rely on.

As for the D, it is pretty solid. Bo is a Top Pairing guy, Allen and Ballard are top 4 guys. Van Ryn could be, with Skrats, Cullimore, Murphy all providing good depth. Welch provides us with a wildcard.

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06-22-2008, 12:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Where is Bos? Calgary? NJD and NYR play better team D as does Pitt. Pitt as a team is much better defensively. Minnesota?
Boston- Chara, Wideman, Stuart, Ference, Alberts, Lashoff=good, but our D is definitely better
Calgary- Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, Aucoin, Warrener, Eriksson= better than Boston, but still not as good as ours

Again, get rid of this team D philosophy. NJ's "team D" is Brodeur. Madden and Pandolfo help out a bit, but other than that Broduer absolutely carries that team and is the only reason they made the playoffs. I already said NYR also a lot like NJ, rely on Lundqvist, a 3rd straight year of being a Vezina finalist for him this season. And they also have tons of skill up front which contribute to them being successful at a puck possession game that limits opposing scoring chances. Pittsburgh, kind of similar to the NYR. Pitt's D- Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik(UFA), Letang, Sydor(UFA), Gill(UFA), Scuderi. Good, but not as good as ours, and they have 3 UFA's to resign which they most likely won't be able to do.

Minnesota- Burns, Johnsson, Skoula, Carney, Hill, Foster, Nummelin. Their defense is OK, but ours is quite better. Lemaire is just a master at defensive hockey.

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06-22-2008, 01:00 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Boston- Chara, Wideman, Stuart, Ference, Alberts, Lashoff=good, but our D is definitely better
Calgary- Phaneuf, Regehr, Sarich, Aucoin, Warrener, Eriksson= better than Boston, but still not as good as ours

Again, get rid of this team D philosophy. NJ's "team D" is Brodeur. Madden and Pandolfo help out a bit, but other than that Broduer absolutely carries that team and is the only reason they made the playoffs. I already said NYR also a lot like NJ, rely on Lundqvist, a 3rd straight year of being a Vezina finalist for him this season. And they also have tons of skill up front which contribute to them being successful at a puck possession game that limits opposing scoring chances. Pittsburgh, kind of similar to the NYR. Pitt's D- Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik(UFA), Letang, Sydor(UFA), Gill(UFA), Scuderi. Good, but not as good as ours, and they have 3 UFA's to resign which they most likely won't be able to do.

Minnesota- Burns, Johnsson, Skoula, Carney, Hill, Foster, Nummelin. Their defense is OK, but ours is quite better. Lemaire is just a master at defensive hockey.
Go ask on the main boards who has a better D. Your homerism is insane. Calgary has 100% better D. It isn't even close. WOW!

Boston does and so does Minnesota.

As for Team D. I will not get rid of the concept. This is what I'm basing our season on. We don't have the forwards New Jersey has to win games and not score goals. How can you expect us to win when our forwards are nowhere near as good defensively.

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06-22-2008, 01:02 PM
  #38
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Ballard is #4 guy on most teams

Ballard is decent, not great, kinda good. #4 guy on any team.
Wow, did you just grow lips on your buttocks?

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06-22-2008, 01:03 PM
  #39
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Wow, did you just grow lips on your buttocks?
Break down the Panther d-men like I did above. Ballard was the #4 guy on PHX. Where is here? 1? no 2?maybe? 3? maybe? 4? probably.

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06-22-2008, 01:05 PM
  #40
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O there is a strong relationship between team defense and defensemen?

Our d-corps is not good enough to win us games. Ballard is #4 guy on most teams and Boynton is a #5. I don't get why our D improved so much. Quantity does not equal quality!

Bouw is our best d-man but after that it is a sharp drop. And a top-ten defencemen in the NHL

Van Ryn is a wild card and if I had to bet I would say he isn't going to return to form. And isn't being counted on to play anything but 10-14 minutes a night, if he gets the job

Murphy cant play D. Murphy isn't trusted anymore around here, we all know that since his injury

Skrastins wasn't good when he played here. Look at his stats. And StatsMachine does it again ... Skrats played good hockey, and isn't supposed to play in our top-4 anymore, because of Friday's deal !

Allen is decent but is inconsistent. He has the tools just hasn't been able to put it together. Bryan had a hard second year, but just like everybody... He is a force, has always been when healthy, and will always be !

Welch is basically a 26 year old rookie who has next to no NHL experience. Welch is expected to compete for the fifth or sixth job, I don't mind having the ex-captain of Harvard battling it out for a spot on this team

Ballard is decent, not great, kinda good. #4 guy on any team. Ballard is an ex-college-player, with a great learning curve... He has always been an offensive force, a leader and had 39 points as a rookie ! Then Gretzky asked the kid to be a shut-down guy, and he was great at that... Ballard is one of the stud young defenceman we can find in the West, and I would take him over any kids from the Preds, that speaks volume ! His game will all come together with our team, believe me and believe him. He is a competitor and a great character, and when he says "this is a good deal for both teams", I really expect him to replace Olli in my hearth... And you know what ? He will !

Boynton is an overpaid #5 guy. You didn't saw a lot of Bruins hockey in the last few years, didn't you ? Boynton has all the tools, his toolbox may not be big enough to translate into a franchise-defenceman, but he'll be a key part of DeBoer's top-4, and he'll give everything for this team night-in, night-out... Standing up for his teammates too !

Sounds like a great D...
Fixed !

You can call me "The Blind" or anything because of my optimism, but I know this team, this sport and I'll trust JM.

A lot of fans asked for an enforcer, and some more sand-paper on this team... This is exactly what JM has done the last months, and about everyone of those guys is flushing him down the toilet now !

We added talent, character, some more talent, and some more character ! We added an extremly talented young defenceman...

We lost our captain. We lost our offensive star.

We gained some more character...

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06-22-2008, 01:05 PM
  #41
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Ballard is second pairing guy, period.

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06-22-2008, 01:08 PM
  #42
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Fixed !

You can call me "The Blind" or anything because of my optimism, but I know this team, this sport and I'll trust JM.

A lot of fans asked for an enforcer, and some more sand-paper on this team... This is exactly what JM has done the last months, and about everyone of those guys is flushing him down the toilet now !

We added talent, character, some more talent, and some more character ! We added an extremly talented young defenceman...

We lost our captain. We lost our offensive star.

We gained some more character...
Even your spin doesn't make me think any better nor does it make the D sound any better. Ballard is not an extermely talented young defenseman. Bouw and Dion are, not Ballard. GEEZ

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06-22-2008, 01:09 PM
  #43
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Salei is our biggest UFA signing ever. The market isn't even good. We also don't have a lot of cap space b/c we wasted space taking Boynton.

Our D isn't that good when you break it down player by player. Take a look at my post above.

D is a team effort. That is why we should acquire forwards who can score and play D. Our D-core was good enough last year and our forwards were not. Unless you have Anaheim's D core your D wont win you games.
SPIN it on, spin machine! We didn't even take on 1 mil more in cap hit in the Jokinen trade. Like that's going to hinder us from signing a UFA. ROFL. All we need is a "Salei" type forward. Salei = top4 D, equivalent to a top six forward. We've also signed Dave Gagner and Larionov in UFA.

I did look at your "D breakdown" above. It's completely ridiculous.

Stop saying D is a team effort over and over. If your D stinks, your effort means absolutely nothing. And by your reasoning, I guess Anaheim just has the best "team effort" all the time? I guess having two of the top three D-men in the game has nothing to do with it, huh?

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06-22-2008, 01:13 PM
  #44
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Your 23 goal calculation is retarded.
Oh, is it? You keep going on and on about how now that Jokinen is gone, we will have the worst offense in the league. I point out that it's only a 23 goal difference we have to make up. Matthias should be counted on to score at least 5-10 goals, I don't think that's unreasonable at all. So that's 18 goals max we have to make up. You don't think a UFA forward can make that up or come close? I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

I love how you also ignored every single other thing in my post.

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06-22-2008, 01:15 PM
  #45
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Even your spin doesn't make me think any better nor does it make the D sound any better. Ballard is not an extermely talented young defenseman. Bouw and Dion are, not Ballard. GEEZ
Bouwmeester and Dion are FRANCHISE defencemen !

Ballard, Suter, Weber, Meszjaros, Coburn, Seabrook, Whitney, Komisarek, and some others are EXTREMLY talented defenceman... They can either become number-one defenceman, or great top-3 defenceman in the worst case scenario !

Keith Ballard has a lot of Chris Chelios in him, I love it !

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06-22-2008, 01:16 PM
  #46
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SPIN it on, spin machine! We didn't even take on 1 mil more in cap hit in the Jokinen trade. Like that's going to hinder us from signing a UFA. ROFL. All we need is a "Salei" type forward. Salei = top4 D, equivalent to a top six forward. We've also signed Dave Gagner and Larionov in UFA.

I did look at your "D breakdown" above. It's completely ridiculous.

Stop saying D is a team effort over and over. If your D stinks, your effort means absolutely nothing. And by your reasoning, I guess Anaheim just has the best "team effort" all the time? I guess having two of the top three D-men in the game has nothing to do with it, huh?
ROFL @ this post LOL

We took on unnecessary salary in Boynton. He is a bottom pairing guy! Even Laus agrees this was stupid and not needed. We could have easily replaced him with someone who is cheaper and by extension put more money towards a free agent winger. LOL

Salei cost around 3 million a season. That would be a fairer comparison to make. Not your top 4 dman=top 6 winger garbage. That is almost as bad as your retarded 23 goal, goal! ROFL
Gagner and Larinov! BRING US THE CUP! Larinov left mid season because he hated it here so much. Gagner was whatever, hardly a noteworthy signing. If anything this proves how mediocre our free agent signings have been! Thanks for proving my point!

If the forwards on the Ducks don't come back and help then it wont matter if you have all Lidstroms playing D. Detriot's forwards not only could score but could also play great D and were extremely responsible. My point is if JM wants to build a "solid" d-core our forwards still need to be defensively responsible. Regardless, our D-core isn't even that good. If they were you might have critiqued my analysis instead of writing it off like a child.

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06-22-2008, 01:22 PM
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Go ask on the main boards who has a better D. Your homerism is insane. Calgary has 100% better D. It isn't even close. WOW!

Boston does and so does Minnesota.

As for Team D. I will not get rid of the concept. This is what I'm basing our season on. We don't have the forwards New Jersey has to win games and not score goals. How can you expect us to win when our forwards are nowhere near as good defensively.
Go ask on the main boards? Yeah, so I can go get a humongous dose of ignorance about the Panthers and Calgary Flames/Canadian homerism? Yeah, I bet you'd love that. And why do you have to let other people do your arguing for you?

If Boston and Minny have better defense corps than us, then Horton is a 3rd liner.
Yeah, the mighty NJ offense, who scored 10 less goals than us last year. And I keep saying that July 1st hasn't even started yet, and Martin has said he wil go after a UFA forward if he and his staff deems Matthias/Frolik aren't ready to contribute big. And who are these great defensive NJ forwards you speak of? Can you actually name any, besides Madden and Pandolfo? Brent Sutter implemented an aggressive puck pursuit offensive style this season in NJ, similar to DeBoer's philosophy, and if you watched any Devils games you would know that. They don't play the same tight team defensive game they used to.

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06-22-2008, 01:25 PM
  #48
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Go ask on the main boards? Yeah, so I can go get a humongous dose of ignorance about the Panthers and Calgary Flames/Canadian homerism? Yeah, I bet you'd love that. And why do you have to let other people do your arguing for you?

If Boston and Minny have better defense corps than us, then Horton is a 3rd liner.
Yeah, the mighty NJ offense, who scored 10 less goals than us last year. And I keep saying that July 1st hasn't even started yet, and Martin has said he wil go after a UFA forward if he and his staff deems Matthias/Frolik aren't ready to contribute big. And who are these great defensive NJ forwards you speak of? Can you actually name any, besides Madden and Pandolfo? Brent Sutter implemented an aggressive puck pursuit offensive style this season in NJ, similar to DeBoer's philosophy, and if you watched any Devils games you would know that. They don't play the same tight team defensive game they used to.
Go to the main boards to see what other people's (non-Panther fans) opinions are. Some will be Calgary fans others wont. So take the others and see what they think.

Uh, Madden and Pandolfo are excellent defensively. That is like saying who scores on Detroit besides Zetterberg and Datsyuk!

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06-22-2008, 01:29 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Go ask on the main boards? Yeah, so I can go get a humongous dose of ignorance about the Panthers and Calgary Flames/Canadian homerism? Yeah, I bet you'd love that. And why do you have to let other people do your arguing for you?

If Boston and Minny have better defense corps than us, then Horton is a 3rd liner.
Yeah, the mighty NJ offense, who scored 10 less goals than us last year. And I keep saying that July 1st hasn't even started yet, and Martin has said he wil go after a UFA forward if he and his staff deems Matthias/Frolik aren't ready to contribute big. And who are these great defensive NJ forwards you speak of? Can you actually name any, besides Madden and Pandolfo? Brent Sutter implemented an aggressive puck pursuit offensive style this season in NJ, similar to DeBoer's philosophy, and if you watched any Devils games you would know that. They don't play the same tight team defensive game they used to.
Dead on !!!

And they were quiet effective, even though Lou was searching for a defenceman the whole year ! I wouldn't say NJ offense is better than ours, and I wouldn't say their defense is better than ours... And I like to think that Marty and Vokoun are two of the best in the business !

Guess what, that means we are going to be competitive every games... That is the only thing I ask !

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06-22-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Break down the Panther d-men like I did above. Ballard was the #4 guy on PHX. Where is here? 1? no 2?maybe? 3? maybe? 4? probably.
Ballard got less than 1 minute of average ice time per game than Jovo, Michalek, and Morris. Some people here are making it out like he was the clear cut #4 on an average D. He also hardly got any PP time. Of course Morris and Jovo are going to get more ice time than him. The season before, Ballard and Michalek were the top 2 defensemen in Phenix. And IMO Ballard was #1, he played a better all around game than Michalek. On our team is definitely #2, as he would be on most teams around the league.

Bouw is self explanatory.

Allen is a solid #2-3 on any team.

Skrastins is a VERY solid #4 on our team, he and Bouw made a very good top pair down the stretch.

Boynton is tough, physical, good #5-6 on any team.

Welch is a solid #5-6 at least. Wouldn't surprise me if he was in our top 4 by the end of next season. It seems like a lot of Panther fans around here haven't seen him outside of the 6 games he's played for us, but he has top 4 potential with low bust risk.

Ryno is a top 4 when healthy, if not he'll be our #6 or 7.

No one else is coming back IMO.

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