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Panthers transition game and offense

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Old
06-22-2008, 01:33 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
If the forwards on the Ducks don't come back and help then it wont matter if you have all Lidstroms playing D. Detriot's forwards not only could score but could also play great D and were extremely responsible. My point is if JM wants to build a "solid" d-core our forwards still need to be defensively responsible. Regardless, our D-core isn't even that good. If they were you might have critiqued my analysis instead of writing it off like a child.
Weiss, Booth, Horton, Kreps, Olesz, Frolik, McLean, Campbell, Matthias can all be very effective defensively, or effective !

They were and I said you were wrong ! The thing is, we have opinions that are different... But I'll always trust the blind-optimism a little, while I'll never trust forced-pessimism !

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06-22-2008, 01:33 PM
  #52
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I personally think that this move was made to free up money and give Jacques Martin a chance to spend some $ on a marquee forward that fits his mold. I know equal value went both ways but I don't think we will keep all of our current defenseman. Maybe a buyout or a trade is the works. Now we should have enough money to sign Bouwmeester long term and sign a marquee forward, maybe Marian Hossa.

Hossa might enjoy it here. JM might have a close relationship with him from his Senator days and there are a lot of Czech's on the team that he might get a long with. Hossa is also defensively responsible and he is more of a playmaker, which is desparately needed on this team.

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06-22-2008, 01:37 PM
  #53
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I personally think that this move was made to free up money and give Jacques Martin a chance to spend some $ on a marquee forward that fits his mold. I know equal value went both ways but I don't think we will keep all of our current defenseman. Maybe a buyout or a trade is the works. Now we should have enough money to sign Bouwmeester long term and sign a marquee forward, maybe Marian Hossa.

Hossa might enjoy it here. JM might have a close relationship with him from his Senator days and there are a lot of Czech's on the team that he might get a long with. Hossa is also defensively responsible and he is more of a playmaker, which is desparately needed on this team.
Dude, we gained money acquiring these two guys. Basically, we shed no salary. This move wouldn't be so bad if we didn't take Boynton because his salary could be put towards a UFA and then you could add that to the trade. But we saved no salary and in the cap era it is unacceptable.

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06-22-2008, 01:39 PM
  #54
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I personally think that this move was made to free up money and give Jacques Martin a chance to spend some $ on a marquee forward that fits his mold. I know equal value went both ways but I don't think we will keep all of our current defenseman. Maybe a buyout or a trade is the works. Now we should have enough money to sign Bouwmeester long term and sign a marquee forward, maybe Marian Hossa.

Hossa might enjoy it here. JM might have a close relationship with him from his Senator days and there are a lot of Czech's on the team that he might get a long with. Hossa is also defensively responsible and he is more of a playmaker, which is desparately needed on this team.
I don't think we have the money to offer Hossa b/c we took back Boynton. Otherwise we might have the potential to make an offer. If We can trade Van Ryn and Stumpel then we might be able to make an offer. You are correct about the JM connenction and the Czech's but I don't see him wanting to sign here. If JM can sign Hossa I'll eat my shoe.

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06-22-2008, 01:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Dude, we gained money acquiring these two guys. Basically, we shed no salary. This move wouldn't be so bad if we didn't take Boynton because his salary could be put towards a UFA and then you could add that to the trade. But we saved no salary and in the cap era it is unacceptable.
We won cap-flexibility for next summer, which in today's NHL is a key !

Boynton is another contract that will end on the first of Jul 2009...

Hope you'll learn !

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06-22-2008, 01:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
I don't think we have the money to offer Hossa b/c we took back Boynton. Otherwise we might have the potential to make an offer. If We can trade Van Ryn and Stumpel then we might be able to make an offer. You are correct about the JM connenction and the Czech's but I don't see him wanting to sign here. If JM can sign Hossa I'll eat my shoe.
I really think Hossa is JM top priority, like a lot of GMs by the way !

And I have a strong feeling we will be in the run...

I want a picture of you eating your shoe as my avatar... So now I want Hossa, Mr. Martin !

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06-22-2008, 01:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BabyJagr View Post
We won cap-flexibility for next summer, which in today's NHL is a key !

Boynton is another contract that will end on the first of Jul 2009...

Hope you'll learn !
I already knew this and posted this earlier. So we traded Jokinen for a rental!

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06-22-2008, 01:46 PM
  #58
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I already knew this and posted this earlier. So we traded Jokinen for a rental!
I won't go back to the trade, I said it before it wasn't THAT good !

But we didn't traded Jokinen for a rentat, we traded him for a freakin' Chris Chelios-clone !

Get over it, and just wait til watching this kid live !

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06-22-2008, 01:49 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
ROFL @ this post LOL

We took on unnecessary salary in Boynton. He is a bottom pairing guy! Even Laus agrees this was stupid and not needed. We could have easily replaced him with someone who is cheaper and by extension put more money towards a free agent winger. LOL

Salei cost around 3 million a season. That would be a fairer comparison to make. Not your top 4 dman=top 6 winger garbage. That is almost as bad as your ******** 23 goal, goal! ROFL
Gagner and Larinov! BRING US THE CUP! Larinov left mid season because he hated it here so much. Gagner was whatever, hardly a noteworthy signing. If anything this proves how mediocre our free agent signings have been! Thanks for proving my point!

If the forwards on the Ducks don't come back and help then it wont matter if you have all Lidstroms playing D. Detriot's forwards not only could score but could also play great D and were extremely responsible. My point is if JM wants to build a "solid" d-core our forwards still need to be defensively responsible. Regardless, our D-core isn't even that good. If they were you might have critiqued my analysis instead of writing it off like a child.
I think you are talking out of your buttocks about Boynton. He's a good #5-6 guy on any team, could be a solid #4 on a number of teams, he's tough, physical, solid defensively, is great at sticking up for his teammates, and moves the puck well. He's at least equivalent to Cullimore, if not an upgrade. Again, you fail to answer: How does the Olli trade affect us going after a UFa forward when we take on less than 1 mil in salary? I know, you can't answer, because it was completely spin on your part.

Garbage? If your'e evaluating trades, and you want to trade a top4 d for a top six winger, that's how you make the evaluation. Same with 1st pair D and 1st line forward, or franchise D and franchise forward. This is common hockey knowledge. And yes, using the comparative salaries that a player those categories would make, that is also a good way to compare players. Salei=3 mil. So you're saying a 3 mil forward couldn't probably score equal or close to 13-18 goals????

Larionov leaving here because he hated it here has nothing to do with him being or not being a top six F. Again, spin on, spinmeister!!! And how many goals did Gagner score with us in 97-98???? Yeah, that's what I thought. Spin that Shiznit, DJ!!!

ROFL! Yeah, completely ignore that Anaheim has Pronger and Nieds on their blueline. I love it. And now you are bashing Detroit's defense????? Oh my, just quit while you can. Yeah, their forwards are also defensively respobsible, but they have the best blueline in the NHL bar none.

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06-22-2008, 01:51 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BabyJagr View Post
I won't go back to the trade, I said it before it wasn't THAT good !

But we didn't traded Jokinen for a rentat, we traded him for a freakin' Chris Chelios-clone !

Get over it, and just wait til watching this kid live !
Boynton couldn't hold Chelios's jock

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06-22-2008, 01:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Go to the main boards to see what other people's (non-Panther fans) opinions are. Some will be Calgary fans others wont. So take the others and see what they think.

Uh, Madden and Pandolfo are excellent defensively. That is like saying who scores on Detroit besides Zetterberg and Datsyuk!
Again, why do you have to let other people do your arguing for you? You know as well as I you just want to bring this to the main baords so all the posters who are ignorant about the Panthers and all the Calgary/Canadian homers can help support your theory.

Yes, Madden and Pando are excellent defensively......I said name ANY OTHER forwards who are excellent defesively. LOL. Apparently you couldn't do that.

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06-22-2008, 01:55 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Boynton couldn't hold Chelios's jock
Talking about Ballard ! Remember we got him too for Olli, kid !

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06-22-2008, 01:57 PM
  #63
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I think you are talking out of your buttocks about Boynton. He's a good #5-6 guy on any team, could be a solid #4 on a number of teams, he's tough, physical, solid defensively, is great at sticking up for his teammates, and moves the puck well. He's at least equivalent to Cullimore, if not an upgrade. Again, you fail to answer: How does the Olli trade affect us going after a UFa forward when we take on less than 1 mil in salary? I know, you can't answer, because it was completely spin on your part.

Garbage? If your'e evaluating trades, and you want to trade a top4 d for a top six winger, that's how you make the evaluation. Same with 1st pair D and 1st line forward, or franchise D and franchise forward. This is common hockey knowledge. And yes, using the comparative salaries that a player those categories would make, that is also a good way to compare players. Salei=3 mil. So you're saying a 3 mil forward couldn't probably score equal or close to 13-18 goals????

Larionov leaving here because he hated it here has nothing to do with him being or not being a top six F. Again, spin on, spinmeister!!! And how many goals did Gagner score with us in 97-98???? Yeah, that's what I thought. Spin that Shiznit, DJ!!!

ROFL! Yeah, completely ignore that Anaheim has Pronger and Nieds on their blueline. I love it. And now you are bashing Detroit's defense????? Oh my, just quit while you can. Yeah, their forwards are also defensively respobsible, but they have the best blueline in the NHL bar none.
Taking on salary means we don't have it to put towards a UFA. If we don't take Boynton you can bank that 3 mill towards a UFA! What is so confusing about this?

No, read this carefully, it is about putting money towards an asset. We signed salei for 3 millionish so we can be reasonable and expect to have a budget of around 3 million for a forward instead. If we can get a top 6 forward for 3 million I'm all for it. My point is this is all about allocating money, not top4=top6!

He had 20 goals!!! ZOMGOMGORO !!@#!@ then we traded him the next year when he had four goals in 36 games!!!

I never ignored it for a second. Way to put words in my mouth. Where am I bashing Detroits defense? Words in my mouth again! I put Anahiem and Detroit in my list. What are you talking about, give it up already!

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06-22-2008, 01:58 PM
  #64
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Again, why do you have to let other people do your arguing for you? You know as well as I you just want to bring this to the main baords so all the posters who are ignorant about the Panthers and all the Calgary/Canadian homers can help support your theory.

Yes, Madden and Pando are excellent defensively......I said name ANY OTHER forwards who are excellent defesively. LOL. Apparently you couldn't do that.
Brylin and Langenbrunner, Parise!

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06-22-2008, 01:59 PM
  #65
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Talking about Ballard ! Remember we got him too for Olli, kid !

My bad I thought you were talking about Boynton but Ballard is not a Chelios clone either. Chelios, the hall of fame d-man? DOUBTFUL

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06-22-2008, 02:03 PM
  #66
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My bad I thought you were talking about Boynton but Ballard is not a Chelios clone either. Chelios, the hall of fame d-man? DOUBTFUL
Different eras... Different hockey... And a clone is not expected to be as good, he is just the same !

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06-22-2008, 02:06 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
I already knew this and posted this earlier. So we traded Jokinen for a rental!

Jokinen is a rental too.

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06-22-2008, 02:09 PM
  #68
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We won cap-flexibility for next summer, which in today's NHL is a key !

Boynton is another contract that will end on the first of Jul 2009...

Hope you'll learn !
Exactly! and since Bouwmeester probably will only be signed for one year at no more than 5 million per year we have (according to nhlnumbers.com)10 million left to spend on Olesz and Hossa. After a salary dump we should be fine.

I think this year Cohen would be willing to spend up to the cap, knowing that next year we have Stumpel, Zednik, Dvorak, Peltonen, Boynton, Skrastins all UFAs leaving us with 12 million to spend on spare parts.

This is my projected lineup for this year.

Horton-Weiss-Booth
Olesz-Kreps-Hossa
Zednik-Matthias-Peltonen
Dvorak-Mclean-Belak

Bye Bye - Campbell and Murray

Bouwmeester-Ballard
Allen-Skrastins
Welch-Boynton
Van Ryn as 7th d

Murphy gets traded for depth forward position, everybody else is gone.

Next year when we lose all those UFAs, I expect Repik, Frolik and possibly Ellerby to be ready to play.

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06-22-2008, 02:15 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Taking on salary means we don't have it to put towards a UFA. If we don't take Boynton you can bank that 3 mill towards a UFA! What is so confusing about this?

No, read this carefully, it is about putting money towards an asset. We signed salei for 3 millionish so we can be reasonable and expect to have a budget of around 3 million for a forward instead. If we can get a top 6 forward for 3 million I'm all for it. My point is this is all about allocating money, not top4=top6!

He had 20 goals!!! ZOMGOMGORO !!@#!@ then we traded him the next year when he had four goals in 36 games!!!

I never ignored it for a second. Way to put words in my mouth. Where am I bashing Detroits defense? Words in my mouth again! I put Anahiem and Detroit in my list. What are you talking about, give it up already!

We took on less than a mil in the Olli trade. So again, I don't see how that hinders us going after top six forward when before the Olli trade, we had around 5-6 mil to spend in UFA, and that's assuming we sign Bouw for around 6.5 mil and that Cohen doesn't spend to the cap. I think you are the one who's confused....

How much does an average #3-4 d-man make? 2.5-3.5 mil. How much doesn an average 2nd line forward make? 2-4 mil. So again, what is so confusing?

Yeah, Gagner had 20 goals in 97-98. How much do we need to replace via a UFA forward again? 13-18.

You did ignore it. I asked you, so Anaheim just has the best "team defensive effort" all the time? Pronger and Nieds have nothing to do with it?.............And you responded by saying if the Ducks forwards dont come back and help defensively, it doesn't matter how many Lidstroms you have. Which, doesn't make sense anyway, because Lidstrom plays for Detroit. You ignored Pronger and Lidstrom. I didn't put words into your mouth.

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06-22-2008, 02:18 PM
  #70
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Jokinen is a rental too.
Jokinen is not a rental. He is signed for two more years.

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06-22-2008, 02:21 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
We took on less than a mil in the Olli trade. So again, I don't see how that hinders us going after top six forward when before the Olli trade, we had around 5-6 mil to spend in UFA, and that's assuming we sign Bouw for around 6.5 mil and that Cohen doesn't spend to the cap. I think you are the one who's confused....

How much does an average #3-4 d-man make? 2.5-3.5 mil. How much doesn an average 2nd line forward make? 2-4 mil. So again, what is so confusing?

Yeah, Gagner had 20 goals in 97-98. How much do we need to replace via a UFA forward again? 13-18.

You did ignore it. I asked you, so Anaheim just has the best "team defensive effort" all the time? Pronger and Nieds have nothing to do with it?.............And you responded by saying if the Ducks forwards dont come back and help defensively, it doesn't matter how many Lidstroms you have. Which, doesn't make sense anyway, because Lidstrom plays for Detroit. You ignored Pronger and Lidstrom. I didn't put words into your mouth.
Can you honestly say we are in a better position now, with Boynton instead of the money we could have?

Nothing is confusing. You just weren't making any sense before by saying top 4 dman=top 6 forward. I said the correct thing to say is base it on salary and then you can look at what might be available. Also2-4 million is quite the range for an average forward.

Based on your ******** calculations...We need a number one center and complimentary top 6 forwards.

They have great Dmen and also have forwards who help out and are responsible. But they would not have as good as D if they didn't have the forwards coming back and helping them out.

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06-22-2008, 02:23 PM
  #72
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Brylin and Langenbrunner, Parise!
OK........So Pando, Madden, Brylin, Langenbrunner, and Parise are mind-numbingly better defensively than Weiss, Olesz, Kreps, Matthias, McLean, Campbell, Dvorak, and Peltonen? I don't think so.

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06-22-2008, 02:26 PM
  #73
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OK........So Pando, Madden, Brylin, Langenbrunner, and Parise are mind-numbingly better defensively than Weiss, Olesz, Kreps, Matthias, McLean, Campbell, Dvorak, and Peltonen? I don't think so.
Again, words in my mouth. Mind-numbinglybetter? give me a break kid. Pando, Madden, and Brylin are significantly better than any three guys we have. Don't even try to argue this. I think I can expect Laus and Zero to back me up on this one. Come on man, this is ludacris.

Matthias? ROFL, how can you even add him. Campbell? ROFL, Dvorak and Peltonen? the guys who everyone here wants bought out or traded ?

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06-22-2008, 02:29 PM
  #74
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Exactly! and since Bouwmeester probably will only be signed for one year at no more than 5 million per year we have (according to nhlnumbers.com)10 million left to spend on Olesz and Hossa. After a salary dump we should be fine.

I think this year Cohen would be willing to spend up to the cap, knowing that next year we have Stumpel, Zednik, Dvorak, Peltonen, Boynton, Skrastins all UFAs leaving us with 12 million to spend on spare parts.

This is my projected lineup for this year.

Horton-Weiss-Booth
Olesz-Kreps-Hossa
Zednik-Matthias-Peltonen
Dvorak-Mclean-Belak

Bye Bye - Campbell and Murray

Bouwmeester-Ballard
Allen-Skrastins
Welch-Boynton
Van Ryn as 7th d

Murphy gets traded for depth forward position, everybody else is gone.

Next year when we lose all those UFAs, I expect Repik, Frolik and possibly Ellerby to be ready to play.

I would have the same plan ! And I think it is JM's too ! Only thing different is my deadwood, isn't the same as yours !

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06-22-2008, 02:33 PM
  #75
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Exactly! and since Bouwmeester probably will only be signed for one year at no more than 5 million per year we have (according to nhlnumbers.com)10 million left to spend on Olesz and Hossa. After a salary dump we should be fine.

I think this year Cohen would be willing to spend up to the cap, knowing that next year we have Stumpel, Zednik, Dvorak, Peltonen, Boynton, Skrastins all UFAs leaving us with 12 million to spend on spare parts.

This is my projected lineup for this year.

Horton-Weiss-Booth
Olesz-Kreps-Hossa
Zednik-Matthias-Peltonen
Dvorak-Mclean-Belak

Bye Bye - Campbell and Murray

Bouwmeester-Ballard
Allen-Skrastins
Welch-Boynton
Van Ryn as 7th d

Murphy gets traded for depth forward position, everybody else is gone.

Next year when we lose all those UFAs, I expect Repik, Frolik and possibly Ellerby to be ready to play.
Not sure where we get the cap space considering Hossa turned down a 7 year 49 million contract. Say he is 8 and then Bouw gets 7.. That is 15 million! Based on nhl numbers we have 15 million available and that doesn't include Belak, Campbell, Kreps, Olesz, and Bouw. I know we will be shedding salary next offseason but there is no way this season we can afford him unless Bouw signs a one year deal or Martin gets rid of Stumpel/Van Ryn/Peltonen.

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