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Panthers transition game and offense

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06-22-2008, 06:09 PM
  #151
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The biggest change that this trade will bring, that possibly could be a main reason why we've underacheived, is the shifting of leadership in the locker room. Olli's best buddy Horton will probably have his attitude adjusted a little bit now that Olli's gone. The whole culture with DeBoer coming in, Olli leaving, and leadership with Boynton and Ballard arriving is going to be drastically revamped. It's great because I have a feeling that as a cohesive unit, this team can achieve a lot. Player development may be much better now than before due to this shifting in leadership. Although Ballard and Boynton aren't as good as Olli individually was, the whole team chemistry issue may prove to be very important. It was evident that Olli was a one-man show out there on his line, as he just didn't fit in to what Martin's system was. It's like communism; now that the opposition and difference of opinion is gone, the values of the new regime can be laid down firmly.

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06-22-2008, 06:10 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
I'm not talking about Matthias being weak on his skates AFTER mono, I'm talking about before he had mono. He can drive to the net and physically dominate the guys in juniors because he's taller and heavier, still, than a lot of them. In the NHL though he won't be able to power his way through defenders because he's not that much taller than the average NHL dman now, and he's nowhere near as strong on his skates as the normal powerforward is. Can that change with some conditioning, growing, and maturity? Sure, but Matthias is going to struggle at times during this upcoming season as he adjusts to the pro game. Just a year ago, he was considered a decent prospect, someone who was going to be a 3rd line center, with an upside of a solid 2 way second liner, capable of 45-55 points in the NHL. Now he's heralded as a future 1st liner etc... I personally believe one day he can put up 70 points in the NHL, but he's someone who will end up becoming better and better as he gets older, but it might take him some time.

He was pushed around and fell a lot when he was up with us. Sure he did well driving to the net but he did often times get knocked down while he had the puck far too easily. Also, like I said, he's still relatively skinny for his height and he's not exactly a mean, punishing player.
WELL YEAH he was a decent prospect. Did you actually know that the day after we traded him he had a 3 point night AND his stock rose DRAMATICALLY at last years WJC, and then he had a great season with the bulls and got his first 2 goals in his 2nd NHL and went on to play 2 more before going BACK down to the OHL to play in the Memorial Cup.

THATS A GOOD PROSPECT.

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06-22-2008, 06:14 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
The biggest change that this trade will bring, that possibly could be a main reason why we've underacheived, is the shifting of leadership in the locker room. Olli's best buddy Horton will probably have his attitude adjusted a little bit now that Olli's gone. The whole culture with DeBoer coming in, Olli leaving, and leadership with Boynton and Ballard arriving is going to be drastically revamped. It's great because I have a feeling that as a cohesive unit, this team can achieve a lot. Player development may be much better now than before due to this shifting in leadership. Although Ballard and Boynton aren't as good as Olli individually was, the whole team chemistry issue may prove to be very important. It was evident that Olli was a one-man show out there on his line, as he just didn't fit in to what Martin's system was. It's like communism; now that the opposition and difference of opinion is gone, the values of the new regime can be laid down firmly.
Yes and no. Who knows how Horton reacts and if Bouw wants out...
To me we need leadership, character, and talent. Right now we are short on proven talent. Weiss is our second best forward and is going to be asked to do a lot. Not sure how he will handle it. The biggest question mark is skilled forwards. Without some free agents coming in I don't think we have a good enough D to make up for our lack of offense.

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06-22-2008, 06:16 PM
  #154
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Thank you, a voice of reason.
I'm not trying to side with anyone here. I've been a panthers fan since 1995 when I was 7 years old and I've been following the whole developmental organization, draft process, etc... as a fan since about 1999. I've seen it before with this organization where they decide to "rely on the young talent" to step up and lead a team. I remember seeing Denis Shvidki (I was soooo high on this guy) and Novoseltsev come in and I remember making projected lines with Weiss, Shvidki, Krajicek, Novoseltsev, Huselius, Hagman, Bure, etc.... and thinking it was going to be the most stacked team ever. We've seen so many youngsters relied upon, only to disappoint or blossom elsewhere, since they couldn't produce under the pressure, and then finally, when it looked like they were going to bust, they blossomed (Huselius, Hagman, others). I don't want to see the same thing happen with Matthias or Frolik. Olesz is another person Martin was "relying on for more offense" this past season. It just goes to show that there aren't any guarantees that a player will improve. You can't base your playoff hopes on numbers that you expect to pop up out of nowhere. If we make the playoffs even after adding 1 FA forward, Weiss is probably going to have to score 60 points, Horton at least 70, Booth at least 50, and Olesz at least 50 IMO. While all COULD happen, there aren't any indications that any of this will happen. I LOVE Matthias and Frolik as prospects, but Denis Shvidki was sooo can't miss after watching him in preseason games on a line with Kozlov and Bure I believe. He looked like a star at times when I saw him and I would have bet anything he turned into an 80 point player in the NHL, but he was rushed, got a concussion and other injuries and was never the same. You never know what's going to happen, so you can't bank on these assumptions.

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06-22-2008, 06:19 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
I'm not trying to side with anyone here. I've been a panthers fan since 1995 when I was 7 years old and I've been following the whole developmental organization, draft process, etc... as a fan since about 1999. I've seen it before with this organization where they decide to "rely on the young talent" to step up and lead a team. I remember seeing Denis Shvidki (I was soooo high on this guy) and Novoseltsev come in and I remember making projected lines with Weiss, Shvidki, Krajicek, Novoseltsev, Huselius, Hagman, Bure, etc.... and thinking it was going to be the most stacked team ever. We've seen so many youngsters relied upon, only to disappoint or blossom elsewhere, since they couldn't produce under the pressure, and then finally, when it looked like they were going to bust, they blossomed (Huselius, Hagman, others). I don't want to see the same thing happen with Matthias or Frolik. Olesz is another person Martin was "relying on for more offense" this past season. It just goes to show that there aren't any guarantees that a player will improve. You can't base your playoff hopes on numbers that you expect to pop up out of nowhere. If we make the playoffs even after adding 1 FA forward, Weiss is probably going to have to score 60 points, Horton at least 70, Booth at least 50, and Olesz at least 50 IMO. While all COULD happen, there aren't any indications that any of this will happen. I LOVE Matthias and Frolik as prospects, but Denis Shvidki was sooo can't miss after watching him in preseason games on a line with Kozlov and Bure I believe. He looked like a star at times when I saw him and I would have bet anything he turned into an 80 point player in the NHL, but he was rushed, got a concussion and other injuries and was never the same. You never know what's going to happen, so you can't bank on these assumptions.
I agree and have been saying it for a while that there prospects for a reason. Who knows? Dadonov could make the team for all we know next season...Prospects are unpredictable. I didn't think Kreps was going to be as good as he was and in my opinion I think Matthias will produce around the same stats. We need to patient adn develop these guys correctly. I hate that we are rushing them. I want this team to be good for the long run. I'm sick of relying on unproven talent.

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06-22-2008, 06:19 PM
  #156
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WELL YEAH he was a decent prospect. Did you actually know that the day after we traded him he had a 3 point night AND his stock rose DRAMATICALLY at last years WJC, and then he had a great season with the bulls and got his first 2 goals in his 2nd NHL and went on to play 2 more before going BACK down to the OHL to play in the Memorial Cup.

THATS A GOOD PROSPECT.
Oh I know, he's risen tremendously, but even in this dominating season of his in juniors, he still had his struggles at times. Before he got mono and after he was sent down, he was being double teamed, frustrated, and allegedly yelling at linemates when they made mistakes. Other reports said in the prospects camp last year that he hogged the puck to the extreme. As many positives as he has and however good he looks, if he has his struggles (to be expected at times) in juniors, he's going to have them as bad or worse his first year or two in the NHL. He's an unbelievable prospect at this point in time, but he's not a prospect of the ELITE category in the class of the rookies we've seen lately. He's the type of guy who IMO will need 2-3 years at the NHL level before he can really step forward and dominate.

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06-22-2008, 06:21 PM
  #157
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Oh I know, he's risen tremendously, but even in this dominating season of his in juniors, he still had his struggles at times. Before he got mono and after he was sent down, he was being double teamed, frustrated, and allegedly yelling at linemates when they made mistakes. Other reports said in the prospects camp last year that he hogged the puck to the extreme. As many positives as he has and however good he looks, if he has his struggles (to be expected at times) in juniors, he's going to have them as bad or worse his first year or two in the NHL. He's an unbelievable prospect at this point in time, but he's not a prospect of the ELITE category in the class of the rookies we've seen lately. He's the type of guy who IMO will need 2-3 years at the NHL level before he can really step forward and dominate.
I know someone who talked to him (thru facebook i think) and he said he was angry he couldn't play more in the NHL when my friend messaged him and he didn't send back for a while.

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06-22-2008, 06:26 PM
  #158
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Yes and no. Who knows how Horton reacts and if Bouw wants out...
To me we need leadership, character, and talent. Right now we are short on proven talent. Weiss is our second best forward and is going to be asked to do a lot. Not sure how he will handle it. The biggest question mark is skilled forwards. Without some free agents coming in I don't think we have a good enough D to make up for our lack of offense.
Yeah I am a little nervous about how Horton would react, but with DeBoer, I'm not as much as I would have been. Imagine if Martin was the coach still, and Horton knew Martin dumped out Jokinen. Horton probably would be counting the days until he could leave. IMO Horton was one of the players who suffered most from Martin as the coach. With new blood behind the bench, I think it might be more motivational to Horton, as he's clearly the #1 guy on our offense right now. Hopefully he can be motivated to step it up and be an NHL star.

Bouw probably wants out regardless. I don't care for him even though he is a good defensman. He makes incredibly dumb decisions at times even though he's as talented as he is. Not that this is his fault at all......but he also seems to have an uncanny ability to have the puck jump over his stick as he tries to keep the puck in at the blueline. Regardless of that though I won't doubt his talent or ability. His personality though is so quiet. I highly doubt he can even handle or enjoy living the South Florida lifestyle in being a young, rich athlete. I'm sure Weiss and Horton go downtown to the clubs or South Beach on the occasion and I bet Horton would enjoy doing that. Bouw OTOH would be so out of place. If the lifestyle doesn't appeal to you and the hockey sucks (as it has while he's been here), then why would he want to stay?

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06-22-2008, 06:28 PM
  #159
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I know someone who talked to him (thru facebook i think) and he said he was angry he couldn't play more in the NHL when my friend messaged him and he didn't send back for a while.
I would have been mad too if I were Matthias, especially after hearing what Olli said. I like that though, obviously he has a fire to play at the highest level and he seems to have a good attitude. He'll get his chance and hopefully he'll be able to deliver.

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06-22-2008, 06:30 PM
  #160
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I would have been mad too if I were Matthias, especially after hearing what Olli said. I like that though, obviously he has a fire to play at the highest level and he seems to have a good attitude. He'll get his chance and hopefully he'll be able to deliver.
That along with his WJC and memorial cup performance I think put him on our roster next year. Frolik will most likely be in the AHL.

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06-22-2008, 06:31 PM
  #161
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NJD have three really good defensive forwards who are better than the Panther's three best.

Ballard is not a top pairing guy. Boynton is an unnecessary expense.

Our D is not top 3 in the conference. This will all be agreed with.

Panther fans think we have such a good team. If we did we would have made the playoffs...
Are D is not top 3 in the conference but i will say its arguably the best is the south east division . We have potential at this point to be a on the bubble playoff team , providing deboer is effected . Which i believe he will be. Lets see what JM adds as fowards in free agency , and evaluate later on . Its no use arguing whose right and wrong at this point . I think we can all agree to disagree.

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06-22-2008, 06:33 PM
  #162
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Our transition game will be great this season. Our offense, if JM doesn't get some help will be disappointing. We would have to hope for very low scoring games. 1-0 or 2-1 type games for us to even have a chance.

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06-22-2008, 07:15 PM
  #163
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That along with his WJC and memorial cup performance I think put him on our roster next year. Frolik will most likely be in the AHL.
I think Frolik has a 50/50 shot to be on the team.

He has higher end offensive skill than anyone on the team in terms of his stickhandling. He's also a great skater and has a better shot than anyone not named Horton. Overall in terms of offensive ability at the moment, I'd say Horton would be first and Frolik would probably be second, with Weiss, Olesz, and Booth tied at 3rd. Frolik isn't consistent enough yet though and also needs to get confidence at the pro level, so we'll see where he ends up. My bet is he starts off in the AHL and then our offense struggles a little, so we call him up three weeks into the year.

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06-22-2008, 07:18 PM
  #164
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Our transition game will be great this season. Our offense, if JM doesn't get some help will be disappointing. We would have to hope for very low scoring games. 1-0 or 2-1 type games for us to even have a chance.
Our biggest problem is a lack of a go-to-guy. We have no one that we can look to to score goals. Horton could emerge eventually but as of now, Jokinen was the one guy you wanted to have the puck if you had a PP late in the game, as much as he floated around. I expect with the young team and young offense,that we're going to have problems getting these clutch goals.

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06-22-2008, 07:57 PM
  #165
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I'm not talking about Matthias being weak on his skates AFTER mono, I'm talking about before he had mono. He can drive to the net and physically dominate the guys in juniors because he's taller and heavier, still, than a lot of them. In the NHL though he won't be able to power his way through defenders because he's not that much taller than the average NHL dman now, and he's nowhere near as strong on his skates as the normal powerforward is. Can that change with some conditioning, growing, and maturity? Sure, but Matthias is going to struggle at times during this upcoming season as he adjusts to the pro game. Just a year ago, he was considered a decent prospect, someone who was going to be a 3rd line center, with an upside of a solid 2 way second liner, capable of 45-55 points in the NHL. Now he's heralded as a future 1st liner etc... I personally believe one day he can put up 70 points in the NHL, but he's someone who will end up becoming better and better as he gets older, but it might take him some time.

He was pushed around and fell a lot when he was up with us. Sure he did well driving to the net but he did often times get knocked down while he had the puck far too easily. Also, like I said, he's still relatively skinny for his height and he's not exactly a mean, punishing player.
He looked a little weak on his skates, but it wasn't really a huge deal in the games he was up with us. In the Memorial Cup though, his balance looked noticably worse. But once he gets his strength back, which over a long offseason I have to believe he will, and puts back the weight he lost or comes close, which I don't think is unreasonable at all, I have a hard time beleiving he wouldn't also improve his balance on his skates, and I'm sure O'Brien will be working with him. They probably already worked with him on it in the development camp. I know that he won't be able to phsycially dominate in the NHL like he does in juniors, but he will at least be 'average' in terms of physical ability in the NHL. Of course he is going to struggle at times. I, and many others here, are not painting the picture that he is going to come right in and be Toews/Kane. But he should still be a good contributor.

He wasn't pushed around 'a lot' when he was up with us IMO. He was hit a couple times and fell down. That's normal. Yeah, like I said, he was a little weak on his skates, and I mean a little. I don't think it's a big hinderance for him this season, especially if he improves on it in the offseason like I said he probably will. Relatively skinny for his height? Idk about that. He's 6'4", 212(before mono at least). Bouw is 6'4" 218. I don't think he's skinny at all. Did you see some of the videos from the official site about the development camp? Especially the one about strength training. He is built, man. He's ripped AND he has mass. He just has a tall, lanky frame like Bouw.

He was a mean, punishing player in juniors. In the NHL he looked a little tentative to get mixed up physically. But I'm sure he'll grow out of that. In the WJC's he was an absolute beast, laying people out left and right, and you could tell he was enjoying it.

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06-23-2008, 08:46 AM
  #166
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O, that. LOL, many people disagree with his assessment, he also was ecstatic about Toronto's pick! I thought it was an article.
By bringing the fact Pierre McGuire thought the Toronto pick was awesome, are you saying he was biased just like his opinion on our trade ?

Toronto picking Luke Schenn is one heck of an improvement for this team, and one of the building stones the Leafs could get !

I'd have to say that you are right about Boynton's contract, but I think the real problem is we pay Van Ryn the same money to be a number 6 defenseman. Boynton's contract isn't a problem, this trade was a wash in terms of cap-hit... Now we can concentrate on giving the money (who was reserved for a PMD) to a forward to take Olli's spot !

The real problem is, you like a few others wanted to give this supposed money to get Olli a winger ! Others bought JM plan of bringing a PMD to improve our transition game... Now our GM has the people he wants on the blueline, he'll concentrate on evaluating the forwards, and he'll make the move he believes ill help us ! And I trust Martin.

Stop bashing Boynton, the guy was a terrific defenseman in the old NHL, and he is a good reliable player in the new NHL. I really think our coach can bring the best out of him, and when he'll do, just watch out ! Boynton is a little bit like our beloved Mike Van Ryn... But what he doesn't have in offensive potential, he has it in defensive potential, and remember we were all shooting for MVR's head because of his subpare defensive-game.

Ballard isn't the pylon you are calling ! I brought you a list of 25 years old or under defenseman, who can be projected to be as good as Keith Ballard: Ryan Whitney, Braydon Coburn, Andrej Meszaros, Tobias Enstrom, Joni Pitkanen, Brent Burns, Matt Carle, Duncan Keith, Brent Seabrook, Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Dan Hamnuis, Brent Burns, Marc-Edouard Vlasic... Out of all those players, Keith Ballard is certainly in the upper-tier with guys like Pitkanen, Weber and Burns... Then you have a some defensemen over 25 which are comparable to Ballard: Komisarek, Volchenkov, Kronwall, Klesla...

Those aren't franchise defencemen, but they are certainly great future number-two... And they are only about fifteen of those which mean 15 teams in the NHL, don't have the luxury to own any ! Now we have one, to go along with our franchise defenseman (and they are about only five of those around the League, not counting last weekend draft)... We ARE better !

Believe me, you'll be amazed by Keith Ballard's game ! Really, this kid can do it all and any time you can add a player of his talent on the back-end, you just take it and run... Since you like to confront your opinions with others, YOU go on the main board, and ask fans out of Nashville, Chicago, Minny if they are willing to trade us Burns, Weber, Suter, Keith or Seabrook for picks and all... I'm pretty sure they'll ask for Horton or something like that, and they would be right !

What I don't understand is your bashing about our cap-situation and adding Boynton etc... I've said it, and I'll say it again, I think like you, that we could have done better by trading Olli ! But it wasn't bad, we were just waiting for this king's ransom which never came ! Now we don't have to worry about defensemen, JM is done in that department... We'll have to wait and see what he does with the forwards !

But we have the money to bring an impact guy, well we have the money to bring Hossa cause he is the only impact-player this year on the market... And by adding Hossa to replace Olli, we don't lose offensively, I could even make a claim about being a better offense with Marian than Olli ! Now I know we may never get Marian, but can you just be patient and believe for a couple of weeks !

Don't know who brought up Denis Shvidki, but thank you ! Man do I loved this guy ! I think I had a crush on him, as big as Heimy !

Heimy, you may not remember me cause I never posted a lot around here (look my profile lol), but I can say to you... Go buy a Frolik's jersey, if you loved Shvidki, you're going to marry Michael Frolik !

This new team with it's up-tempo style, transition game, great collection of defensemen and a couple of amazing rookies, will surprise a lot of people ! A LOT...

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06-23-2008, 09:19 AM
  #167
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166 posts in one day, a record for the board.

Too bad most of it is pointless bickering. Since there's a lack of any real information being passed here, and people have forgotten the concept of respect in having discussions with one another, and also since this is the most boring thread I've ever read on this board, I'm shutting it down. I haven't seen one person change their opinion in this thread because of anything said, so it seems pretty pointless to let it continue.

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