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Pittsburgh/Toronto 09 offseason trade

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Old
06-22-2008, 09:38 PM
  #26
dubey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
Just so I get this straight.....

Staal hasnt proven anything yet

Schenn is a franchise defenseman
I made another post later saying it was stupid of me to say that. It was removed I think.

I do stand by the fact that if the Leafs wanted a first line forward they would have taken Filatov who has a really high ceiling in terms of potential.

And that neither Schenn or Staal have had the opportunity to prove that either are first line/first pairing impact players yet.

I wouldn't make the trade on account of those two factors.

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Old
06-22-2008, 09:38 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
If Toronto wanted a first line forward they would have selected Filatov, they wouldn't take a gamble on Staal.
Filatov is more of a gamble then Staal, obviously.

But I don't think Cliff would touch this, since we already have 2 centreman who are more than capable of being #2 centreman (Steen and Antropov), and because we are looking at a franchise centreman as our #1 centre. I also think other teams could offer the Penguins much more enticing offers for J. Staal.

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06-22-2008, 09:42 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Filatov is more of a gamble then Staal, obviously.

But I don't think Cliff would touch this, since we already have 2 centreman who are more than capable of being #2 centreman (Steen and Antropov), and because we are looking at a franchise centreman as our #1 centre. I also think other teams could offer the Penguins much more enticing offers for J. Staal.
Does Staal even have a first line ceiling? I just don't see him as a player I would want on my first line.

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06-22-2008, 09:43 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
OK, he's proven that he's a great 3rd line centre.

Let's trade a franchise defenceman for that.
You have a franchise defenseman? where?

Luke Scheen is a good defensive defenseman prospect, not the second coming of Brian Leetch.

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06-22-2008, 09:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JeffYear92 View Post
The Leafs Laugh at this
Probably why the Leafs are the laughing stock of the league right now.....

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Old
06-22-2008, 09:43 PM
  #31
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Staal has many great attributes:

He has proven that he can shut down elite NHL forwards, he quietly did an excellent job at it in the playoffs.

He has proven that when put with a play maker he can score

He's excellent at take aways and defensive stick work.

He's got the potential to be an annual 30+ goal scoring selke nominee, and a top power forward as well.

Luke Schenn has a lot of potential, but he hasn't proven a thing.

Of course the proposed trade presupposed that it would be in 2009, after Schenn and Staal have both had a year to get better.

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06-22-2008, 09:45 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Does Staal even have a first line ceiling? I just don't see him as a player I would want on my first line.
At wing I'd say he's a 1st liner through and through. At center, you'd need a puck carrying playmaking winger like Hossa or Jagr with him.

He's not a puck distributor. He's a guy that will go to the net and get dirty and create space for his wingers, forecheck hard to keep the puck in the offensive zone, and he showed in his first season skill as a sniper.

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Old
06-22-2008, 09:51 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
At wing I'd say he's a 1st liner through and through. At center, you'd need a puck carrying playmaking winger like Hossa or Jagr with him.

He's not a puck distributor. He's a guy that will go to the net and get dirty and create space for his wingers, forecheck hard to keep the puck in the offensive zone, and he showed in his first season skill as a sniper.
Yes, but the Pens will always use him at center where he can anchor a line and shutdown the other team's best, something you can't do from first line wing.

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06-22-2008, 09:51 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
At wing I'd say he's a 1st liner through and through. At center, you'd need a puck carrying playmaking winger like Hossa or Jagr with him.

He's not a puck distributor. He's a guy that will go to the net and get dirty and create space for his wingers, forecheck hard to keep the puck in the offensive zone, and he showed in his first season skill as a sniper.
He's a natural centre though, isn't he?

I see him more as a Brind'amour type player that I would love to have centring my second line.

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06-22-2008, 09:56 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
He's a natural centre though, isn't he?

I see him more as a Brind'amour type player that I would love to have centring my second line.
Yea he is a natural center, although he can play the wing when needed. But his value is as a shut down center. Brindamour is a good comparison, Staal would actually be a bigger version of him when he hits his prime. It's kinda scary that he is already playing such a solid defensive forward and isn't even 20 yet.

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:01 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
You have a franchise defenseman? where?

Luke Scheen is a good defensive defenseman prospect, not the second coming of Brian Leetch.
Did you not here when the Leafs drafted Luke Schenn?

"Toronto wins huge here. This is the start of the re-build and there's no better place to start than on the shoulders of Luke Schenn. He is the Human Eraser on defence. A one man search and destroy defender. This is a franchise player." McGuire.

"He's the best defensive defenceman in the draft and probably the best in over a decade, maybe two decades," said Grant McCagg, publisher of the McKeen's Hockey Draft Guide. "I can't think of the last guy that came out of the draft that's as good defensively right now as Luke Schenn is."


Quote:
Luke, who was getting used to life as the Maple Leafs' next franchise player.
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/Hockey/article/447320

Bobby Orr: "(Luke) Schenn is the next Larry Robinson"

Patrick King writes on Sportsnet.ca, “Luke Schenn has been compared to Dion Phaneuf and Adam Foote but some day when a National Hockey League draft approaches in future years, his name could be the one used as the basis for comparison for the next blue-chip defenseman. Schenn, a third-year defenseman with the Western Hockey League’s Kelowna Rockets, draws comparisons to Phaneuf and Foote for his strong defensive play and penchant for delivering big hits. As the draft approaches on Friday, Schenn is viewed by many as a budding franchise player with an upside NHL scouts haven’t seen in years.”

I am sorry Habs fan, but I would easily take these guy's opinion over yours. EASILY.

Here are some more:

"Luke Schenn has incredible upside and at 6'2 210 he has the size to be a top blue line defenseman. Solid skater who holds well in his zone has good shot from the point and can make great outlet passes on the tape he has the ability to be a All-Star Defenseman if he stays focused."

Kelowna Rockets head coach Ryan Huska
"We rely on Luke in all of our key situations in our own zone. He's the guy that we look to settle things down and to play with composure. He's very good at staying composed and not panicking under pressure. I think that has led him to gain a lot of notoriety right now for being one of the better defensemen in our league. He is a physical defenseman, he likes to make sure that he finishes his checks and finishes checks hard ... he plays physical and he's at his best when he is physical and making opponents aware of when he's on the ice."

"A big guy that plays a robust game," a WHL coach explained. "He makes every player on the ice honest out there because he can stiffen you up at any time. He's solid defensively and I think he's gotten better as an offensive defenceman. Really reliable, competes hard and brings it every shift. Real character guy. You can see the other players on his team look up to him."

"The physical presence is top of the heap," McCagg said. "Great positionally, very good defensive instincts, highly competitive and he's not afraid of anything out there. He's going to be a shut down defenceman for 15 years on your team."


Last edited by TheLeastOfTheBunch: 06-22-2008 at 10:07 PM.
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Old
06-22-2008, 10:03 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
If he was, there would be more interest in him than anyone on the Oilers

Both haven't proven anything in the NHL yet. It's kind of a blind trade. Could Staal produce with 2nd or even 1st line icetime? Not sure if it's worth the risk for either team.

I wouldn't do it.
You guys finally keep a draft pick instead of dealing it away for geriatrics and all of a sudden he is better than a whole team full of great young talent.

Enjoy fighting for dead last next season, maybe the leafs can tank and by default get some good players, god knows they aren't able to make decent trades or signings.

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:04 PM
  #38
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As a Leaf fan, I'm intrigued by this trade. The only thing I'm worried about is that if Staal was actually a one-year wonder, and ends up being a very good 15-20 goal shutdown center the rest of his career. If thats the case, I wouldnt want to move Schenn for him. I just dunno if he can grab another 30 goal season, if so, I want him

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:05 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
You guys finally keep a draft pick instead of dealing it away for geriatrics and all of a sudden he is better than a whole team full of great young talent.

Enjoy fighting for dead last next season, maybe the leafs can tank and by default get some good players, god knows they aren't able to make decent trades or signings.
At least my post was honest

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Old
06-22-2008, 10:06 PM
  #40
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Coming from a Leaf fan, I don't think Schenn is a "Franchise Defender" at all. I think he'll be a good player to build a core around, but I don't see him as a Franchise type..maybe my definition of Franchise varies from other peoples. I really do like Staal aswell.. but I don't think this happens. I think the Leafs want to start growing their own players..not to say the deal is bad, I'd surely take it but I don't think the Leafs do.

I think there's something to be said about growing and developing your own players. And I'd like to see the Leafs develop a solid foundation of youth before they start moving them out.

Just my opinion.

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06-22-2008, 10:10 PM
  #41
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There is no player more overrated by their fans than Jordan Staal. He isn't a guy you can build your team around. As my friend who's a Pens fan puts it, he's the next Chris Gratton.

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06-22-2008, 10:30 PM
  #42
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both teams will say no, it's one of those trades that's too risky on both ends.

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Old
06-22-2008, 11:02 PM
  #43
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Based on the fact Pitt was in the SCF this year, I'm pretty sure, if they trade Stall, it will be for someone who has been around for a while, and who will help them now, and not look like a rookie defender when the important game is on the line. Pitt will want to win now, and trading Staal for Schenn does not help them. If, for any reason one of those guys is traded, it will not be into their same conference.

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06-22-2008, 11:09 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Based on the fact Pitt was in the SCF this year, I'm pretty sure, if they trade Stall, it will be for someone who has been around for a while, and who will help them now, and not look like a rookie defender when the important game is on the line. Pitt will want to win now, and trading Staal for Schenn does not help them. If, for any reason one of those guys is traded, it will not be into their same conference.
Reread the original post.

In the summer of 09, the Pens may not be able to afford to re-sign Staal, depending on how Staal performs next year, on how much the cap goes up, and who else they decide to re-sign.

Trading Staal in the summer of 09 would be a cap related move like Philadelphia trading Umberger this summer, not a "win now move."

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06-22-2008, 11:15 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
.

Awesome name. It's incomplete without a Rhymenocerous though.

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06-22-2008, 11:16 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
If he was, there would be more interest in him than anyone on the Oilers

Both haven't proven anything in the NHL yet. It's kind of a blind trade. Could Staal produce with 2nd or even 1st line icetime? Not sure if it's worth the risk for either team.

I wouldn't do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
OK, he's proven that he's a great 3rd line centre.

Let's trade a franchise defenceman for that.
29 goals is nothing? The kid has skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra View Post
Just so I get this straight.....

Staal hasnt proven anything yet

Schenn is a franchise defenseman
I can see how you arrived at that point. You know, Schenn has played a whole 0 games in the NHL, so he's going to be that good.

I doubt Toronto goes and trades Schenn right now, anyways. Staal is good for them, as they're rebuilding and would help their forwards, but Tlusty is there and Kulemin is suppose to come over, so they need to focus on d and need Schenn.

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06-22-2008, 11:21 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by dynrehab View Post
Based on the fact Pitt was in the SCF this year, I'm pretty sure, if they trade Stall, it will be for someone who has been around for a while, and who will help them now, and not look like a rookie defender when the important game is on the line. Pitt will want to win now, and trading Staal for Schenn does not help them. If, for any reason one of those guys is traded, it will not be into their same conference.
The Pittsburgh staff has verbally stated various times that their philosophy is not just to win now, but still be contending 5-10 years from now. People have this idea that since the Pens traded 2 role players, a first round pick, and a kid who appears to be sliding down faster than a dress on prom night for Marian Hossa, they are only looking to win right now. Educate yourself.

As a Pens fan, if Staal really wishes to get out of Pittsburgh at this time next year (which personally I really don't doubt, being he'd probably like to fulfill his potential as a likely first line player), then this is a trade I'd really have to consider and ultimately pull the trigger on. For the record, there were some whispers just weeks ago that Staal had been questioning his role on the team, and if Malkin resigns, which is expected rather soon, that seems to only raise more questions.

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Old
06-22-2008, 11:26 PM
  #48
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adam foote vs keith primeau basically. though i think the selke is in staal's future, which primeau never won.

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06-22-2008, 11:41 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
Uhh, no he wouldn't.

He wasn't taken before Thomas Hickey or Karl Alzner, what makes you think he would've been taken over a guy that is considered to be the "most defensively minded prospect in the past decade or two"?
Sure was. He was also one of the youngest players in the draft, and just had a season in the NHL where he put up 49 points in 79 games.... going by Desjardins #'s, which would assume he played the same kind of minutes in the OHL (VERY unlikely), he would've put up 43 goals and 120 assists... factor out the games he misses for the WJC and you're looking at around 38 goals and 105 assists.

Perfect by any means? No. But it's not insane by any stretch of the imagination to say he would've lead the OHL in scoring and competed with Stamkos as the #1 OV pick. He had doubts about his ability coming in, and a lot of it had to do with size, speed and strength. He's put that on. And it's fair to assume if he was 3 weeks older and one of the oldest picks in this draft he would've looked much better than being one of the youngest picks in the prior draft.

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Old
06-22-2008, 11:48 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Sportacus View Post
Awesome name. It's incomplete without a Rhymenocerous though.
I thought about calling myself "The Hiphopopotamus vs. The Rhymnocerous" but it was too long to type and really, the Hiphopopotamus is where it's at.


I'm the Hiphopopotamus and my lyrics are bottomless............

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