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Canucks Claim Kyle Wellwood

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Old
06-25-2008, 04:25 PM
  #326
BAuldie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
Yes, even when weighing cost, one improves this team and one doesn't. Both require ignoring significant character flaws. Which one did we get?
Oh really?

What would you rather have?

Jokinen

or

Raymond, Edler, Hodgson, Wellwood, plus extra money left to sign free agents?

Gee I know what I'd rather have

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06-25-2008, 04:26 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
I consider salary cap a pretty significant cost.

To the people (NFiTO and co) who trashed Nonis for persuing Brunnstrom on the basis he may take a roster spot and impact other decisions made in the off season, I hope they are consistent with this.
Again.. you are making baseless comparisons..

Brunnstrom = 0 NHL games... NOTHING

Wellwood - over .5 points per game in nearly 200 career games.. Wellwood has proven something.. especially compared to Brunnstrom

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06-25-2008, 04:27 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by colonel_korn View Post
You can't just separate the question of assets from that decision, it's a huge factor. If I can trot out the reliable old "car analogy" -- if I'm in the market for a car, and someone offers me a luxury car for $80K and tells me it has a noisy muffler, then I might have a problem with that and look to spend my money elsewhere. If someone offers me a worse car for free then I probably don't care whether the muffler's noisy or not, if I think the car will be useful to me. And if that noisy muffler really does turn out to be a problem, then I can ditch the car and I still have my $80K to spend on something else. There's not really any hypocrisy there. If you have to give up a lot for something, then any flaws with what you're getting are going to weigh much heavier than if you can pick it up for essentially free.
Staying with your analogy, I hate Ford. HATE Ford. Worst cars on the planet, and I'm including Daewoo and Kia in that.

Now if someone comes to me and offers me a 67 Mustang for free that just got pulled out of the junk yard, barely runs, will cost $10,000 to fix up, but if I do a great job, it might be worth $15,000, am I going to do it? Probably not!

If someone comes to me and offers me a Ford GT that retails for over 100K, and I can get it for 40K, knowing that at any time I can sell it for a huge profit, I'm going to kick the tires.

This rant really has nothing to do with Jokinen and Wellwood, I just *** hate Ford.

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06-25-2008, 04:28 PM
  #329
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The guy is a great playmaker. He has the potential to be a 15-20 goal scorer, racking up 50-60 assists in a season. So far though, he hasn't come near to meeting his potential (the closest was the 42 points in 48 games he had a couple seasons ago).

He has a poor work ethic, he's injury prone, out of shape, and isn't physical.

He better not be pegged as a top 6 forward. The only way I can see this making sense is if he's in a 13th forward role where he comes in when we need the extra offense or have an injury, OR if we go the Buffalo model and have 3 scoring lines and 1 checking line. I could see a line of Jaffray-Wellwood-Shannon being decent. Although not overly physical, they could chip in with some offense every now and then, getting 4th line minutes. That would seriously take away from our team toughness though, so we'd need to pick up guys like Tucker, Malone and Cole to infuse some grit into our forward group.

I get the impression though that this is somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to not being able to make a move at the deadline. It's still way too early in the game to tell though.

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06-25-2008, 04:29 PM
  #330
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The other thing that totally shoots down the 'Gillis is a hypocrit theory' is the sound-bite about Beach...the jist of which was Gillis saying: "The attitude problems are a little over-blow, and things like that can be worked out and developed in the right organization."

What we should be drawing from all these Gillis quotes about character is that it isn't about individual players; it's about a top-down mentality of committment, respect, and accountability. This is why guys like Walter have been brought in, and why Vigneault has been kept around. These guys believe in the patience required to develop players as people. And that's what produces your Sakics, Messiers, Yzermans, etc. The winning environemnt. The willingness to interview Beach multiple times, and the waiver pick-up of Wellwood proves they aren't against second chances either, and that they are dedicated to building an environment (which is the whole not just the individual parts) that breeds character players. I don't know if it's actually going to work, but it's one heck of an idea.

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06-25-2008, 04:30 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAuldie View Post
Oh really?

What would you rather have?

Jokinen

or

Raymond, Edler, Hodgson, Wellwood, plus extra money left to sign free agents?

Gee I know what I'd rather have
Oh, oh I love the makeup game!

How about Jokinen, Raymond, Wellwood and still extra money

or

Raymond, Edler, Hodgson, Wellwood and more money

Because Edler + Hodgson gets you Jokinen.

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06-25-2008, 04:30 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
Which is harder to fix? A poor work ethic or someone who creates locker room discourse?

Which is worse? Being fat, or blowing off some charity event to go to a strip club?
The difference is that any issues Jokinen has have not affected his ability to be an elite NHL player. The guy has been one of the best centers in the league over the past three seasons.

Wellwood's issues have almost run him out of the league. So yes, I'd argue his issues are worse.

And frankly I think it's easier to fix a guy who's a locker room issue than to fix a poor work ethic. Look at Roenick - big disturbance on a crap Phoenix team, no problems at all in a better San Jose organization. Surround an ******* with strong leadership, and it'll probably rub off.

But I do see the difference in giving a guy like Wellwood a shot when it costs virtually nothing, as opposed to trading significant assets. And like I said, I'll judge the move based on how it fits into other moves this summer.


Last edited by Tb0ne: 06-25-2008 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Filtered
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06-25-2008, 04:34 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
Oh, oh I love the makeup game!

How about Jokinen, Raymond, Wellwood and still extra money

or

Raymond, Edler, Hodgson, Wellwood and more money

Because Edler + Hodgson gets you Jokinen.
Jokinen deal wouldn't have involved Hodgson. Florida only had to include the #49 pick, so we'd probably have had to include #41. And Edler is probably more valuable than Ballard, if anything. Boynton was a salary dump. So I'd say that Edler + Sauve would probably have been able to do it.

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06-25-2008, 04:35 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
To stay relevant, Jokinen comparison has nothing to do with assets or talent. That's a complete strawman to the comparisons made. Gillis didn't go to the media and say "I was in the hunt but the cost was simply too much." He went to the media and said he had no interest in the character flaws that the player brought with him. That's his excuse for making a significant upgrade to this team's offense.
I disagree. Shouldn't it be indirectly implied that the cost associated factored into the decision along with the character flaws? "Considering the cost inolved in both cap space and assets we see too many character flaws" is quite the mouthfull. He's talking to a reporter not giving a statement to a judge.

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06-25-2008, 04:36 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
The difference is that any issues Jokinen has have not affected his ability to be an elite NHL player. The guy has been one of the best centers in the league over the past three seasons.

Wellwood's issues have almost run him out of the league. So yes, I'd argue his issues are worse.

And frankly I think it's easier to fix a guy who's a locker room issue than to fix a poor work ethic. Look at Roenick - big disturbance on a crap Phoenix team, no problems at all in a better San Jose organization. Surround an ******* with strong leadership, and it'll probably rub off.

But I do see the difference in giving a guy like Wellwood a shot when it costs virtually nothing, as opposed to trading significant assets. And like I said, I'll judge the move based on how it fits into other moves this summer.


I'm more defending Gillis's stance, not that I necessarily believe it myself. But I can see where he's coming from where he would rather bring in Wellwood for cheap with his flaws (lazy) vs bringing in Jokinen at a cost with a potential big flaw.

Was I disapointed we couldn't pick up Jokinen? Of course. But if Gillis doesn't want to try and go that route because of what he sees as flaws, I am fine waiting to see what July 1st brings.


And for the record I am sure Jokinen could end up being a great player for any team. A lot of the time it seems to be the team environment more than anything that allows a players "personal flaws" to derail the team or himself.


Last edited by Tb0ne: 06-25-2008 at 05:28 PM. Reason: filtered
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06-25-2008, 04:38 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
The difference is that any issues Jokinen has have not affected his ability to be an elite NHL player. The guy has been one of the best centers in the league over the past three seasons.

Wellwood's issues have almost run him out of the league. So yes, I'd argue his issues are worse.

And frankly I think it's easier to fix a guy who's a locker room issue than to fix a poor work ethic. Look at Roenick - big disturbance on a crap Phoenix team, no problems at all in a better San Jose organization. Surround an ******* with strong leadership, and it'll probably rub off.

But I do see the difference in giving a guy like Wellwood a shot when it costs virtually nothing, as opposed to trading significant assets. And like I said, I'll judge the move based on how it fits into other moves this summer.

Agreed, you'd be pissed too if your idiot GM traded away Luongo just when it looked like you were about to ice a solid lineup. It set the franchise back years.

There's a chance Jokinen could smarten up if he plays with a better (or at least new) team.

The most plausible reasoning I've heard is that Martin (ie Florida) was not willing to do a major deal with Vancouver again (the optics would be horrible). But whatever the reason, it had better not be that Gillis was asleep at the wheel or that he just didn't like Jokinen due to character flaws that obviously didn't get in the way from him being a legit #1 center.


Last edited by Tb0ne: 06-25-2008 at 05:28 PM. Reason: filtered
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06-25-2008, 04:39 PM
  #337
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By numerous reports it was an ex-Florida player (quite obviously Mellanby in my opinion) who told Gillis to stay away from Jokinen. Honestly, I wouldn't have complained had we traded Edler + 41st for Jokinen, but I'll trust our new regime when they opted to pass on him. Especially if it was Mellanby behind the decision as he'd certainly know better then almost anyone else.

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06-25-2008, 04:39 PM
  #338
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Well, best case I guess Wellwood gets and stays healthy, improves on a few things, and becomes a guy who can play on the 4th line, and maybe the 2nd PP unit to start with. It'd be nice this year if it actually seemed possible that the Canucks 4th line could produce a goal, putting real NHL players out there instead of the AHL fodder they've tried for the last couple years is a start.

This just seems like a pretty low risk move, what's to hate about it really? I mean, how many players in this organization, 25 years old or less, have the potential to score 40+ points? Not enough.

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06-25-2008, 04:42 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
You gotta be ****ing kidding me. Explain to me how having piss poor work ethic IS NOT a character flaw.

I sincerely want to read your reply to this.
I imagine that most people have at least one character flaw... If Gillis is looking for people that don't have any character flaws, he'd be looking at a list of no-one, but me... and I'm not a very good hockey player...

But I think I see your point... Is having a poor work ethic a character flaw that is worth taking a chance on for a hockey player - where hard work plays an important part of success or failure?

Personally, I think so, given the price... I don't have faith that Walter will ship Wellwood into shape through motivational speeches and self-perception building activities... But a threat /realization that his NHL career could be ending fast might light the fire to make a work ethic difference... at least for the short term. From that point, maybe Wellwood turns it around long-term... maybe he doesn't... But hard work can be turned on - at least for a short amount of time... as the threat of failure is a huge motivator... The work ethic should be able to be turned on, at least until the imminent threat of failure is pushed farther away... Either way, worth the risk, IMO...

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06-25-2008, 04:42 PM
  #340
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The year before last Wellwood played 2/3 of a season and was on pace for 72 points. That dwarfs Markus Naslund's last 2 seasons here. Keep in mind those numbers were put up by a 24 year old player that wasn't in very good physical condition. If Wellwood starts taking hockey seriously he'll be an extremely good waiver wire pickup. If not, no big loss.

Like I said before, it was a no brainer.

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06-25-2008, 04:43 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
Staying with your analogy, I hate Ford. HATE Ford. Worst cars on the planet, and I'm including Daewoo and Kia in that.

Now if someone comes to me and offers me a 67 Mustang for free that just got pulled out of the junk yard, barely runs, will cost $10,000 to fix up, but if I do a great job, it might be worth $15,000, am I going to do it? Probably not!

If someone comes to me and offers me a Ford GT that retails for over 100K, and I can get it for 40K, knowing that at any time I can sell it for a huge profit, I'm going to kick the tires.

This rant really has nothing to do with Jokinen and Wellwood, I just *** hate Ford.

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06-25-2008, 04:45 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
Which is harder to fix? A poor work ethic or someone who creates locker room discourse?

Which is worse? Being fat, or blowing off some charity event to go to a strip club?



I think his entire point is that you are measuring all character flaws at equal value, and are holding Gillis to some manager speak talk he spouted out to the media like it's gospel. We have no idea what character flaws Gillis hates/dislikes, you're just using too big of a generalization.

And if you really want to hold Gillis (Or expected him to) to picking up players with NO flaws whatsoever....then you have high hopes.
I find it funny that no one has even thought about Luongo and the 'problems' (according to the Florida media and the Panthers) in Florida that he had before he was acquired by Nonis. (But then again hardly anyone on this board Reads press from around the NHL.) Now that he's in Vancouver what have you heard about his character? Nothing but great things. What does that say about the source of what people are saying not only about Luongo when he was with Florida but Jokinen as well. Especially given the way the Vancouver media works. That says volumes about how bad things are in Florida. Ever consider that when looking at Jokinen? I highly doubt it.

Anyways, regarding what 'The Gillis' said in the media....

The Main reason I'm harping on Gillis about this because he is a really bad public speaker and hasn't fully learned how to work the press room yet. If he's going to judge players by his character either stick with what was said in the media or clarify his position.

Furthermore, both of the character flaws of Jokinen and Wellwood are equally as bad when judging who to bring on a team. I would have taken a chance on Jokinen over Wellwood because the Florida Panthers don't know the difference between their Elbows and their butts when it comes to running a team or instilling a winning attitude with their players (this is the main reason why I rolled my eyes and shook my head when Mellanby was hired). Why anyone would take a chance on Leafs players that JFJ acquired is beyond me. Just watch. Jokinen is going to make people eat their words in Phoenix and make the Panthers, along with anyone who questioned his character, look worse than they do now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
But I think I see your point... Is having a poor work ethic a character flaw that is worth taking a chance on for a hockey player - where hard work plays an important part of success or failure?
Exactly. Especially after his 'Gretzky didn't workout so I don't have to' comments. That alone should have made Gillis say 'pass'. But I see your point about setting a fire under his ass.


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06-25-2008, 04:45 PM
  #343
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Burrows-Kesler-(ahler/free agent pick up)
Pettinger-Wellwood-Pyatt

Extras: Brown/Cowan

Gives the Canucks a fairly diverse, offensive bottom two lines. Could compliment the top 6 nicely.

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06-25-2008, 04:50 PM
  #344
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Great points floating around in this thread.

However, I think all Wellwood needs is a call from Jan Bulis' dad.

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06-25-2008, 04:51 PM
  #345
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"We're really pleased, we think he's a guy that we are prepared to put a lot of time and effort into and work with," Gillis told The Canadian Press. "We're quite pleased to have acquired him."
It's not like Gillis is unaware of what it is going to take to get Wellwood contributing in a Canuck uniform. He obviously thinks that with the system he has in place (coaches, Walter, new pysc guy) he can turn Wellwood into a solid contributer.

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06-25-2008, 04:52 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Dolemite View Post
...Furthermore, both of the character flaws of Jokinen and Wellwood are equally as bad when judging who to bring on a team...
...Several teams appeared to have character issues with Jokinen, with one NHL executive calling Jokinen "a dog," referring to the idea he doesn't work as hard as he should...

Sounds like they have the same flaw, if these reports are accurate. But Wellwood was cheaper to obtain and keep, a lower risk move. I'm sure there's more to the Jokinen thing that they didn't want to go into, I mean Mellanby did play with him in Florida.

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06-25-2008, 04:54 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by itshomerdoh View Post
...Several teams appeared to have character issues with Jokinen, with one NHL executive calling Jokinen "a dog," referring to the idea he doesn't work as hard as he should...

Sounds like they have the same flaw, if these reports are accurate. But Wellwood was cheaper to obtain and keep, a lower risk move. I'm sure there's more to the Jokinen thing that they didn't want to go into, I mean Mellanby did play with him in Florida.
Again, this is the Florida Panthers we're talking about here. A front office and Franchise that is synonymous with terminal stupidity/Mental retardation.

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06-25-2008, 04:57 PM
  #348
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Again, this is the Florida Panthers we're talking about here. A front office and Franchise that is synonymous with terminal stupidity/Mental retardation.
You seem to throw out a lot of baseless accusations around here.

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06-25-2008, 04:58 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Jokinen deal wouldn't have involved Hodgson. Florida only had to include the #49 pick, so we'd probably have had to include #41. And Edler is probably more valuable than Ballard, if anything. Boynton was a salary dump. So I'd say that Edler + Sauve would probably have been able to do it.
That's not the way trades go down. When the Oilers heard about the deal Kevin Lowe said they too think they could have beaten the Phoenix deal easily if given the chance. There's more to player transactions than simply value. Maybe Martin was a huge Ballard fan and thinks Nick Boynton can revive his career with a change of scenery. You just never know.

With that said, if Martin offered me Olli Jokinen for Edler and the 2nd I wouldn't hesitate. It's funny, if Nonis was still here we would probably have Olli Jokinen and Fabian Brunnstrom by the sounds of Nonis' intentions.

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06-25-2008, 04:59 PM
  #350
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You seem to throw out a lot of baseless accusations around here.
No, that's a testament to how much Hockey news I read around the NHL. I've been following the Panthers for many years and trust me, I am being very nice in my description of their franchise compared to what I would really like to say.

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