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06-26-2008, 05:11 AM
  #501
orcatown
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I don't get why some people are so bent out of shape because Gillis didn't, supposely, remain true to some so called principles. Like he is only suppose to take players that show talent, grit and leadership. If a player is showing all those qualities he is going to be bloody difficult to pick up short of giving away a lot of assets. Saying that Gillis should be hamstrung by certain ethical or consident standards is ludricous. I sure the **** hope Gillis is not turning down moves to improve the team because he feels it will offend some prescribed notions of what is proper.

People have to realize that money ball (or money puck) is like buying stocks. You buy stocks when they have some real value but are beat up and are rated below their potential value. You think you are going to get rich by buying stocks that everyone already knows are valuable get ready to be disappointed. Those stocks have already been bid up and you are going pay above market value for their expected increase in value. The deals often lie in the trash heap.

Wellwood has demonstrated he has NHL ability - that he can be a point producer and goal scorer in a League where those talents are particularly important. But right now his value has severely dropped. But that is where you when you get the bargain - when you go against the grain and find value that others have dismissed. Complaining about getting Wellwood for nothing truly is looking a gift horse in the mouth. Insisting that Gillis not do it because he is being inconsistent to some issues of character or personality is senseless.

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06-26-2008, 07:02 AM
  #502
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Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
Can you honestly see Wellwood getting bottom 6 icetime in AV's system? Where last year's mandate was more grit and size? A guy who everyone admits is 1-way with zero defensive ability, is small, offers literally zero grit and very little energy? I can't honestly see AV dressing the guy, period. But ignoring that, as some of the Leafs fans alluded too, the only way he can really function is in a top 6 role. And at the same time, if he ends up there, the team hasn't been built properly.
Getting put on waivers and booted from an organization might just wake him up. Perhaps he goes the way of a Daniel Cleary and decides to learn to play the game. It's doubtful he'll ever be a great defensive player but he can certainly get better and if he shows that committment to being a professional player in camp you will see him get icetime and it might be between a Jannik Hansen and Matt Pettinger getting 10 minutes a night.

I don't write off a 4th line, PP specialist role at all for him. But as you say in an AV system he is going to have to commit to becoming a more well-rounded player on the ice and less so off of it.

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06-26-2008, 07:50 AM
  #503
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I agree about Isbister, any expectations over him being a decent fourth liner were expecting too much,
It was too much to expect Isbister to be an NHL player yet somehow he got a one way deal.

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06-26-2008, 09:11 AM
  #504
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Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Ask yourself this though, where ever you project Wellwood being (assuming he doesn't completely flop), is he really a better option than Brendan Morrison?
If the Canucks are looking at Wellwood as a second line center, I'd much rather have Morrison in that role. If the Canucks are looking at Wellwood as a third scoring line option, then I'd rather have Wellwood. Having Morrison in that role for the salary he's going to command this offseason wouldn't be worth it.

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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
It was too much to expect Isbister to be an NHL player yet somehow he got a one way deal.
Yep, no doubt, but I'm guessing that Nonis figured he could save some cap dollars. I don't think it was worth the risk considering he was basically an AHL call up the season before, but it ended up being alright having Isbister in that role.

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06-26-2008, 09:39 AM
  #505
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For all the whining done about the Isbister signing, he turned out to be a pretty decent 4th liner IMO.

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06-26-2008, 09:54 AM
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyatt4God View Post
For all the whining done about the Isbister signing, he turned out to be a pretty decent 4th liner IMO.
Agreed.. he was also a useful member of the Kesler/Burrows line when he was put on their wing.

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06-26-2008, 09:56 AM
  #507
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Here's one of my favourite Wellwood goals.



If you watch the slow motion replay you can see how he was planning to go to his backhand inside the post. But he saw that Miller got his pad down so at the very last minute he was still able to change his mind and do something else. All while keeping the puck away from the sliding defenceman twice. He does this kind of stuff all the time.

Unlike many shorter players Wellwood uses a very short stick (even for his size) and his ability to stickhandle in close is amazing.

I'm not saying Wellwood will be a guaranteed success for you guys. He has some holes in his game that need fixing. But most of you are underrating his offensive ability. His offensive skills are top end.

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06-26-2008, 09:56 AM
  #508
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maybe Gillis is giving Ryan Walter a chance to prove his worth??

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06-26-2008, 10:22 AM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
maybe Gillis is giving Ryan Walter a chance to prove his worth??
Not just Walter but the entire coaching staff and dressing room.

Wellwood has tremendous skill but needs to be taught how to be a professional. Maybe he's a lost cause but he might just be a Marc Savard. A guy who needs or needed a good swift kick in the butt and perhaps continual good swift kicks. This isn't a 30 year old lost cause but rather a player that just turned 25 last month.

If the organization can turn him into a guy who takes his occupation serously they will have picked up a heck of a player from waivers.

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06-26-2008, 10:38 AM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Ginner's in T.O. View Post
Wellwood is most definetely an insurance policy. Maybe it allows vancouver to take their time evaluating the fitness of Morrison. If July 1 somes, We really just need to get Mo back and use Wellwood as depth. That gives us something we actually did not have last year. Now we just need need size, goal scoring and speed.

This is one of the few posts that makes sense. It seems to be a given that the team should let Mo walk. What the hell ? The guy is a proven second line centre who should put up 50 - 60 points and is excellent defensively. He'll also be available this year for a reduced salary.

Kyle Wellwood as the 2nd line centre ? I don't understand the rationale.

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06-26-2008, 11:13 AM
  #511
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I am sure this quote was posted, but it certainly is relavent towards his conditioning questions:

“I would be skating on my normal schedule. I had been skating before I broke my foot to rehab my groin. I usually don’t start skating until mid-July anyway, so it should be alright,” he says.

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06-26-2008, 11:17 AM
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
I am sure this quote was posted, but it certainly is relavent towards his conditioning questions:

I would be skating on my normal schedule. I had been skating before I broke my foot to rehab my groin. I usually dont start skating until mid-July anyway, so it should be alright, he says.
Considering his Leafs are usually out of it come April, that's a freaking LONG time before he starts skating.

If he's compensating with workouts, I wouldn't be so concerned. But as witnessed by his gut, I don't like the sound of that quote.

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06-26-2008, 11:36 AM
  #513
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No Wellwood Talk?

If I missed the thread talking about Wellwood then I apologize. But I came over here and was so surprised that there is no Kyle Wellwood talk??

For what it's worth, I think you guys are getting a good bargain, he's not a bad asset, especially if you don't have to give up anything to get him.

if he fulfills his potential (a big if due to his conditioning and injury issues) then he can be a good 70 pts guy, but expect him to play gritty like Cliff Ronning though, he's not that kind of player.

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06-26-2008, 11:41 AM
  #514
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OK, I found this interesting, from the Province today:

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...8-1c5246761839


Here is the fun part:

"This is a good opportunity for Kyle," said agent Mike Liut. "He can play a puck-possession game and that's what they [Canucks] want to do, because dump-and-chase is not his style"

And from another article:

"This decision was independent of Brendan's future with our club," said the Canucks general manager. "It was about adding depth at the centre and right-wing position."



So a couple of things to note, dump and chase is apparently not going to be used at all. And Wellwood is also being pencilled in as a potential RW, making the line combinations all the more intriguing. It also makes me really really wonder how different our teams approach will be this year, since last year, AV really liked his boys to grind things out, and was obsessed with a "shutdown line". I am basically wondering how much of an influence Gillis is going to have on AV's coaching system/style.


Also this article to me suggests that if need be Wellwood could be tossed with the Sedins, especially if they want a puck control line (contingency plan wise, if they don't sign a Hossa/Malone/Ryder, or if they just want to switch things up on game by game basis)

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06-26-2008, 11:51 AM
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Axe View Post
What, in the history of the Canucks and Leafs, makes you think that either one of them will win the draft lottery?
Well, the way things are looking right now, both will at least have a shot, maybe among the highest percentage chances.

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06-26-2008, 11:57 AM
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
So a couple of things to note, dump and chase is apparently not going to be used at all. And Wellwood is also being pencilled in as a potential RW, making the line combinations all the more intriguing. It also makes me really really wonder how different our teams approach will be this year, since last year, AV really liked his boys to grind things out, and was obsessed with a "shutdown line". I am basically wondering how much of an influence Gillis is going to have on AV's coaching system/style.
Hm, interesting.

It's all well and good and very poetic to say you're going to play a puck possession style, but championship teams need to be well rounded. We still have to be able to dump and chase to establish a good forecheck because in some (maybe a lot) of cases, it's necessary. Detroit and Pittsburgh are perfect examples of this, and even Anaheim last season played this style a lot.

But I think AV can coach that.. as we have seen, he is clearly able to implement a dump and chase style defensive system, and I do believe that though part of it was because "his" style is defense, it's also because that's what was necessary for the lineup to win. If you give him more offensive players he will let them play a more puck possession style if they can handle it, and I think this is where the extent of Gillis' "influence" on AV will end. AV will still preach defensive responsibility and all that jazz. I hope, anyway.

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Old
06-26-2008, 12:08 PM
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
If the Canucks are looking at Wellwood as a second line center, I'd much rather have Morrison in that role. If the Canucks are looking at Wellwood as a third scoring line option, then I'd rather have Wellwood. Having Morrison in that role for the salary he's going to command this offseason wouldn't be worth it.
I guess it depends on what kind of role/ice-time you're talking about with a 3rd scoring line. If we're talking a decent amount of ice-time, I'd probably still take Morrison. Assuming he would cost around $1.5M more, we get a proven veteran who can play in all situations, with ties to the team, can play under this coach, and is way less of a question mark.

But if we're talking sub-10ish minutes per game, then yeah, Wellwood.

Quote:
Yep, no doubt, but I'm guessing that Nonis figured he could save some cap dollars. I don't think it was worth the risk considering he was basically an AHL call up the season before, but it ended up being alright having Isbister in that role.
The thing with Isbister is that it was Canucks fans that pegged him a "reclamation project" and that "Nonis is expecting him to score 15-20 goals".. then they got upset at Nonis for Isbister not meeting these unrealistic expectations THEY set for him.

I'm sure Nonis had in the back of his mind that MAYBE Isbister could somehow find his game, but like someone has said, he was just someone to bring size and not-completely-awful hands to the bottom 6. He did that just fine, finding his consistent offensive game would be just gravy.

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06-26-2008, 12:59 PM
  #518
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isn't this sad? we're hyping ourselves over a waiver-wire pickup

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06-26-2008, 01:02 PM
  #519
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Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
OK, I found this interesting, from the Province today:

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...8-1c5246761839
btw, why does the province make every damn article negative? if they hate the canucks so much, why don't they write stuff about weather, auto, entertainment. tired of reading that crap. makes me sick

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06-26-2008, 01:05 PM
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
OK, I found this interesting, from the Province today:

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/ne...8-1c5246761839
Jesus Christ.

When did Dan Russell become sports editor for the Province?

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06-26-2008, 01:10 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Tripwyre View Post
I think my favourite part of this thread, other than the insane notion that picking up a player without a contract off of waivers will in any way impede us from picking up meaningful players on July 1st,
Good job completely distorting the arguments people made. I haven't read every page, but I didn't see anyone suggest that. What has been suggested, and is quite possible, is that Wellwood is a contingency plan. And that's quite fine. A plan in case other plan fail.

I've argued, as others have, that he can only really be successful on the Canucks in a top 6 role. To take that a step further, my argument was that if there is ANY room for him in our top 6, Gillis has failed assembling this team and preparing for the season.

Others feel he'll fit in fine on the 3rd or 4th line. I can't see it, personally, unless AV is now just a puppet coach taking direction from Gillis. Unless, as others have pointed out, AV and player development can wake Beatrice Wellwood from his coma. There are some ifs, maybes and buts in these scenarios, but those penciling him in must either subscribe to AV turning him around, dramatically changing his coaching style, or Gillis leaving a porous roster. I'm not sure of any other scenarios.

Regardless, I think everyone agrees on a 2-way contract, there's no risk. On a 1-way contract, there's less risk, but it could still be troublesome depending on how the rest of summer goes.

Have we had 100% confirmation that his contract is 2-way?

As MS said, no point judging until we see the rest of the summer. But I don't like the foreshadowing and it wouldn't be much fun waiting, would it?


Last edited by FruityPants3*: 06-26-2008 at 01:17 PM.
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Old
06-26-2008, 01:11 PM
  #522
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you guys are gonna love the kid.

watch him start on a line with the Sedins.

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06-26-2008, 01:16 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I mentioned it before, but I think there's a big difference between adding players like you mentioned and adding a guy that is a season removed from being a PPG player. He's not very exciting, but there's a lot more potential upside with a guy like Wellwood than you have with the players you mentioned.
I hear what you're saying, and I agree that Wellwood does have some potential upside. I guess what I was getting at is that this is another case of us picking up another team's castoffs and hoping it turns out. Gillis and Aquaman sort of set the expectations high with their talk after firing Nonis, I think expectations are that something major will happen.

This move just seems like a lateral move, as I don't believe that he will provide any more points than Brendan Morrison would have, and at least I've never questioned Mo's work ethic. I'd love to be wrong though, and I hope he has a good season.

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06-26-2008, 01:22 PM
  #524
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Originally Posted by NCPokey View Post
I hear what you're saying, and I agree that Wellwood does have some potential upside. I guess what I was getting at is that this is another case of us picking up another team's castoffs and hoping it turns out. Gillis and Aquaman sort of set the expectations high with their talk after firing Nonis, I think expectations are that something major will happen.

This move just seems like a lateral move, as I don't believe that he will provide any more points than Brendan Morrison would have, and at least I've never questioned Mo's work ethic. I'd love to be wrong though, and I hope he has a good season.
I don't know about your calendar but mine says it's still June 26th.
Clearly we will be making some noise (how much remains to be seen) during the Free Agency period. I fail to see how jumping on a waiver pickup opportunity this early into the offseason is considered a "lateral" move. You can't really say that until it's all said and done and Wellwood is indeed our No. 2 guy.

Until then, this is strictly a "you can never have too much depth" type of move.

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Old
06-26-2008, 01:22 PM
  #525
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Originally Posted by galiano View Post
This is one of the few posts that makes sense. It seems to be a given that the team should let Mo walk. What the hell ? The guy is a proven second line centre who should put up 50 - 60 points and is excellent defensively. He'll also be available this year for a reduced salary.

Kyle Wellwood as the 2nd line centre ? I don't understand the rationale.
There's a bit more irony. Mo is your text book example of character and integrity, and he's a proven centre, and he's excellent defensively, and he's a local boy on and on.

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