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We need more Sweden vs Finland hockey

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Old
08-10-2013, 02:47 AM
  #1
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We need more Sweden vs Finland hockey

Why FEL SEL wont generate one league? Two divisions and one champion! LETS DO THIS!

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08-10-2013, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHLJokers View Post
Why FEL SEL wont generate one league? Two divisions and one champion! LETS DO THIS!
I could not agree more.

As I have written before:
Two Divisions - Current SHL and current Lüga ( ).
One Swedish champion ("SHL" division) and one Finish champion ("Liiga" division") and then the big "battle of the north" for the Nordic champion.

This could work without breaking out into a new league by just intermixing the two top leagues (since Sweden in general is very conservative when it comes to sports and their leagues).

One new big market for both SHL and Liiga. Sweden gets access to Finish market and vice versa



Last edited by icing: 08-10-2013 at 03:10 AM.
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08-10-2013, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KHLJokers View Post
Why FEL SEL wont generate one league? Two divisions and one champion! LETS DO THIS!
no will, no interest, no money, etc etc

Look, all euro hockey is based on domestic leagues and no-international competition. People governing hockey in euro countries are too conservative, they are afraid of changes. Of course, you need a lot of money to create such league, so maybe it is a reason as well.

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08-10-2013, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
no will, no interest, no money, etc etc
No interest? Fans would go ape **** for this.. SEL vs Liiga could be big product

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08-10-2013, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by KHLJokers View Post
No interest? Fans would go ape **** for this.. SEL vs Liiga could be big product
Who says about fans?

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08-10-2013, 03:35 AM
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Fans = people = customers = sponsors / ticket income = honey

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08-10-2013, 04:03 AM
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I'd tune in to watch that on a Saturday morning...intriguing idea.

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08-10-2013, 04:08 AM
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You see? Even Canadian NHL man would watch it. Can you but this in the biggest hockey forum in Sweden,,, And someone but this in Jatkoaika.com here in Finland... Lets do this

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08-10-2013, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by KHLJokers View Post
You see? Even Canadian NHL man would watch it. Can you but this in the biggest hockey forum in Sweden,,, And someone but this in Jatkoaika.com here in Finland... Lets do this
Well, sure! Other than my NA (Canadian hockey) I've always been a fan of Finnish hockey more so than European hockey...and in the last 5 years or so I've liked Sweden's new development model playing more of an aggressive style. I've traveled to Finland a lot in the past (not so much recently) but I have spent a fair bit of time in Helsinki and took in a lot of games there...so I hope this idea has legs...

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08-10-2013, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
no will, no interest, no money, etc etc

Look, all euro hockey is based on domestic leagues and no-international competition. People governing hockey in euro countries are too conservative, they are afraid of changes. Of course, you need a lot of money to create such league, so maybe it is a reason as well.
Yes, there is an interest for this from both Sweden and Finland - the reason why it hasnt happen has a lot to do with Swedish conservatism. I would say Finland is about ready to go already.

And no. There has not have to be a lot of money since the leagues already exists! New markets increases the revenue. The extra costs are the cost to get over the see for away games.


Last edited by DaveG: 08-10-2013 at 08:16 AM. Reason: mod
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08-10-2013, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
This could work without breaking out into a new league by just intermixing the two top leagues (since Sweden in general is very conservative when it comes to sports and their leagues).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
People governing hockey in euro countries are too conservative, they are afraid of changes.
My apology, you wrote only about Sweden and used term "very", I wrote about all euro hockey federations/leagues and used term "too".
In general, we wrote the same.

To your latest post, we can discuss it more closely.

1) We lack money

You need money to create such league, of course, if you want to increase level of game/non-hockey enviroment. I could agree that swedish clubs can afford it, but finnish does not.

All is about money and rich swedish clubs have problem to increase SHL to 14 clubs (as I read at HFB). Do you really think that they would merge or so SHL with SM-L? Rich SHL clubs does not want to lose their TV deals money... why should they want to? It is naive to think that tv revenues would increase 2+ times if both league merged.

Viasat will promote Jokerit-KHL as much as possible, at least in Finland. Finnish media as well, I bet on it. That means they wont be so interested in SML or merged SHL/SML. I have evidence from slovakia and czech rep and I know that media work the same in every country.

2) We dont have any interest

I have neved said that there is no interest of fans. Apparently there is not interest of others (media, clubs, federations etc). If there was interest, you would have merged league for decades.

Substitute interest by influence/power if you want. You know, nobody wants to lose its influence/power. We can see it with expansion of KHL towards Sweden/Europe in general. If there is such problem, you need to "persuade" people... I hope you know what I mean. If I were you, I would think about money or lack of money as you wrote.

One more time, I have never talked about lack of fan´s interest... there are other ways of interest in hockey.

3) KHL will rule us all anyway.

KHL has power in euro hockey. Nothing will happen without KHL´s blessing. The same model as NHL, nothing will happen in hockey without NHL´s blessing.

The most important thing here is conservatism. You need to fire all people, or at least all with power, involved in swedish/finnish hockey to create merge league. Dont undestand it as offensive or ignorant, because it is not. I just want to note that this ("fire all ppl") is not only about swedish/finnish hockey, it is about european hockey. Look, the same ppl have ruled swedish/finnish/euro hockey for decades, they have not created european league/competition or strong regional league/s (Nordic or Czech-slovak) ... why should I believe that the same ppl will do something positive (creation of nordic/euro league) in near future?? That does not make sense. Look at Russia, ppl from bussiness came to hockey and created KHL. New ppl.. who did not work in hockey or sport before KHL. You need "new ppl" in swedish/finnish hockey as well, if you want something new... good if they were from bussiness, "big" bussiness.

Hope this post is understandable for you.

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08-10-2013, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
KHL has power in euro hockey. Nothing will happen without KHL´s blessing. The same model as NHL, nothing will happen in hockey without NHL´s blessing.
Maybe you can let the KHL know that I am very greatful that they allow SHL to exist. I think I speak for all swedish hockey fans (except Darth Yoda) when I bow down to KHL due to this. Thanks KHL! (Oh and thanks NHL too!)

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08-10-2013, 12:51 PM
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Sure why not. If it's set up like the NHL with an Eastern/Western conference with little inter-conference I could see it work. To begin with the playoffs are for each nations national championship, before both champs go head to head in a seven game series for a Scandinavian Championship.

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08-10-2013, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by KRM View Post
Sure why not. If it's set up like the NHL with an Eastern/Western conference with little inter-conference I could see it work. To begin with the playoffs are for each nations national championship, before both champs go head to head in a seven game series for a Scandinavian Championship.
Except Finland isn't a part of Scandinavia

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08-10-2013, 01:16 PM
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Pls, be realistic...

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08-10-2013, 01:17 PM
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Except Finland isn't a part of Scandinavia
So they say, but we're bigger, we call the shots.

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08-10-2013, 06:37 PM
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I think it's a great idea, but it would have to be something in it for the teams to play those extra games, else it would just be a boring exhibition game (Hell, I'd still wanna watch it).

Also not sure if I'm reading this right, but whoever made this (map below) thinks Luleå and Skellefteå should play in Liiga instead of SHL? I don't think that's a good idea and it would obviously never happen.

I'm not sure if that's even what's implied here tho, it's a ****** drawn map lol, no offense.

I like the idea anyway of the best team from SHL facing best team of Liiga for some sort of trophy. I'd watch those games.

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08-11-2013, 05:15 AM
  #18
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We get a preseason "battle of the north" on the 22nd. Skellefteå vs Ässät.
(Otherwise known as the return of Jyri! )

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08-11-2013, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSL View Post
I think it's a great idea, but it would have to be something in it for the teams to play those extra games, else it would just be a boring exhibition game (Hell, I'd still wanna watch it).

Also not sure if I'm reading this right, but whoever made this (map below) thinks Luleå and Skellefteå should play in Liiga instead of SHL? I don't think that's a good idea and it would obviously never happen.

I'm not sure if that's even what's implied here tho, it's a ****** drawn map lol, no offense.

I like the idea anyway of the best team from SHL facing best team of Liiga for some sort of trophy. I'd watch those games.
LOL. I made this in about 30 seconds in paint. It wasnt meant to geographically correct but just show the league divided between Sweden and Finland. of course Luleå and Skellefteå would play in the SHL-division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
My apology, you wrote only about Sweden and used term "very", I wrote about all euro hockey federations/leagues and used term "too".
In general, we wrote the same.

To your latest post, we can discuss it more closely.

1) We lack money

You need money to create such league, of course, if you want to increase level of game/non-hockey enviroment. I could agree that swedish clubs can afford it, but finnish does not.

All is about money and rich swedish clubs have problem to increase SHL to 14 clubs (as I read at HFB). Do you really think that they would merge or so SHL with SM-L? Rich SHL clubs does not want to lose their TV deals money... why should they want to? It is naive to think that tv revenues would increase 2+ times if both league merged.

Viasat will promote Jokerit-KHL as much as possible, at least in Finland. Finnish media as well, I bet on it. That means they wont be so interested in SML or merged SHL/SML. I have evidence from slovakia and czech rep and I know that media work the same in every country.

2) We dont have any interest

I have neved said that there is no interest of fans. Apparently there is not interest of others (media, clubs, federations etc). If there was interest, you would have merged league for decades.

Substitute interest by influence/power if you want. You know, nobody wants to lose its influence/power. We can see it with expansion of KHL towards Sweden/Europe in general. If there is such problem, you need to "persuade" people... I hope you know what I mean. If I were you, I would think about money or lack of money as you wrote.

One more time, I have never talked about lack of fan´s interest... there are other ways of interest in hockey.

3) KHL will rule us all anyway.

KHL has power in euro hockey. Nothing will happen without KHL´s blessing. The same model as NHL, nothing will happen in hockey without NHL´s blessing.

The most important thing here is conservatism. You need to fire all people, or at least all with power, involved in swedish/finnish hockey to create merge league. Dont undestand it as offensive or ignorant, because it is not. I just want to note that this ("fire all ppl") is not only about swedish/finnish hockey, it is about european hockey. Look, the same ppl have ruled swedish/finnish/euro hockey for decades, they have not created european league/competition or strong regional league/s (Nordic or Czech-slovak) ... why should I believe that the same ppl will do something positive (creation of nordic/euro league) in near future?? That does not make sense. Look at Russia, ppl from bussiness came to hockey and created KHL. New ppl.. who did not work in hockey or sport before KHL. You need "new ppl" in swedish/finnish hockey as well, if you want something new... good if they were from bussiness, "big" bussiness.

Hope this post is understandable for you.
It was a bit more than "very" and "too" that set us apart. You don't know what conservatism means in term of Swedish hockey.

1) Please think about what you are writing. You are throwing stuff out without spending anytime actually trying to figure out what it means. In short: If you reach the roof in a market looking at revenue what do you do if you want to grow? You look towards new markets to expand to. Instead of a market of about 9 million you could reach a market around 15 million.

And who said anything about increasing revenue x2? Please just stop assuming stuff. I spoke about INCREASE of revenue.

Viasat is a Swedish company and if they had a chance to broadcast a merged finish Swedish top division they would. But it doesnt have to be Viasat, they don't broadcast SHL in Sweden - CMore does.

2) Wrong. You have it totally wrong. The clubs are open to most ideas that would better the product, most of the resistance and hesitance comes from the conservative fans. Try to understand WHY the picture in the second post includes the actual domestic leagues that already exists and not total new league.

And no, there would not have been a merged league for decades. Decades ago hockey wasn't commercialized as it is today and there was not any money to speak of at all in the sport, and there was no need for anything else. And many players were amateurs. Things develop you know. Societies develop, technic develop, economies develop, interests and needs develop, sports develop.

3) Nothing will happen in the KHL without the KHL:s blessing. That's it. SHL and SM-liga do what they want within their leagues and cross border cooperation no matter what the KHL think about it. If you believe otherwise you are delusional.

The last part in your post is just another example of how little facts yu actually got to back up your ramblins with. Do you actually know how Swedish ice-hockey is run and by who and who does what?

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08-11-2013, 09:43 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
LOL. I made this in about 30 seconds in paint. It wasnt meant to geographically correct but just show the league divided between Sweden and Finland. of course Luleå and Skellefteå would play in the SHL-division.



It was a bit more than "very" and "too" that set us apart. You don't know what conservatism means in term of Swedish hockey.

1) Please think about what you are writing. You are throwing stuff out without spending anytime actually trying to figure out what it means. In short: If you reach the roof in a market looking at revenue what do you do if you want to grow? You look towards new markets to expand to. Instead of a market of about 9 million you could reach a market around 15 million.

And who said anything about increasing revenue x2? Please just stop assuming stuff. I spoke about INCREASE of revenue.

Viasat is a Swedish company and if they had a chance to broadcast a merged finish Swedish top division they would. But it doesnt have to be Viasat, they don't broadcast SHL in Sweden - CMore does.

2) Wrong. You have it totally wrong. The clubs are open to most ideas that would better the product, most of the resistance and hesitance comes from the conservative fans. Try to understand WHY the picture in the second post includes the actual domestic leagues that already exists and not total new league.

And no, there would not have been a merged league for decades. Decades ago hockey wasn't commercialized as it is today and there was not any money to speak of at all in the sport, and there was no need for anything else. And many players were amateurs. Things develop you know. Societies develop, technic develop, economies develop, interests and needs develop, sports develop.

3) Nothing will happen in the KHL without the KHL:s blessing. That's it. SHL and SM-liga do what they want within their leagues and cross border cooperation no matter what the KHL think about it. If you believe otherwise you are delusional.

The last part in your post is just another example of how little facts yu actually got to back up your ramblins with. Do you actually know how Swedish ice-hockey is run and by who and who does what?
Stop saying me what should I do or what I dont/know. Thx

1) I read this thread, so I will use infos written here by swedish/finnish posters. I hope, they gave us correct infos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by World Is Not Phaneuf View Post
Both, the Finnish SM-liiga and the Swedish Hockey League got new TV contracts this year.

SHL signed a 4-year deal(2014/15-2017/18) with C More/TV4 reportedly worth ~325M SEK(~49M USD) a year. idrottensaffarer.se

SM-liiga signed a 5-year deal(2013/14-2017/18) with Sanoma Media/Nelonen and according to Savon Sanomat newspaper every team will receive between 900k-1.1M Euros(1.1M-1.4M USD) of TV money a year. savonsanomat.fi

SHL is a 12-team league, while SM-liiga is a 14-team league. SM-liiga is also going to lose arguably its most popular team after next season when Jokerit are scheduled to leave for the KHL.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_More
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV4_Gruppen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanoma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelonen
SHL clubs have much better tv deal, much more tv money than SML clubs. Lets imagine merged league, 12 SHL + 14 (or 12) SML clubs. This league would be more advantageous for SML clubs which would get more tv money than now.

Nowadys (tv revenues)
SHL club gets 4,2M USD
SML club gets 1,5M USD

Merged (tv revenues) estimation based on status quo/24 clubs
club gets 3M USD

As I read at HFB (so pls dont ask me if I know how swedish ice-hockey is run, because I am using argument of swedish HFBoarders, including you) rich SHL clubs does not want to increase amount of clubs to 14. One of reasons is tv deal and it sharing, so two more clubs, less money for current SHL clubs. I see that clubs, they are just fine with status quo.

If SHL clubs does not want to share tv deal with two more swedish clubs from Allsvenskan, will they want to share it with 12 finnish clubs?? Yes, there will be bigger market, but it does not mean that tv deal will be good enough. If I were SHL clubs, I would not merge with SML, if I got less than 4M USD (status quo) from tv deals. Now, SHL gets 50M USD, SML cca 20M USD, right? You need at least 100M USD. As I understand it, SHL reached the roof of revenues, so this extra 30M USD tv money would have to be generated by finns. Are they able to do it? Especially without Jokerit?


Viasat can be a swedish company, but they are partner of KHL. I would not be suprised if they prefer established league (KHL) over some new project, if they saw better potential in KHL than in this new finnish-swedish league.

Yes, this CMore can broadcast this merged league, why not? Is the company able to increase tv revenues?

2.Did you read my post? I said I did not talked about fans.

You did not reply to my note about "losing power/influence".

The argument about developing is not a main reason why you dont have merged league with finns in your country. The more important reason is "losing power/influence".

3.That is your opinion, I respect it but dont agree. I have experiance with KHL, you dont. That says a lot.


You imagine the merge very simple, it does not work like that.

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08-11-2013, 09:59 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post

3.That is your opinion, I respect it but dont agree. I have experiance with KHL, you dont. That says a lot.


You imagine the merge very simple, it does not work like that.
This is the swedish section, for people who wants to discuss swedish hockey, most of us here live in Sweden, I have never seen anyone here, ever, except Darth Yoda agree with you. And yet you think you are right? I have never seen you write anything other than "khl does what it wants" "khl has money" "nothing will happen without khl", sure sometimes you hide it in long posts, but that's still the content.

You keep bringing up we can't do anything if KHL doesn't agree with it. Why should we give 2 ****s what KHL think about anything? They have 0 say in anything we do with our hockey league. If we want to create a swedish-finnish hockey league, do you think we care what KHL thinks?

Now I will expect some kind of "khl has money" reply from you. Congrats! Does that matter to us? Nope.
I'm not saying we're going to create a swedish finnish league, but what I do say, that if we do, or when we do, we won't care what KHL or russia thinks. It's just not relevant to us.

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08-11-2013, 10:15 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Stop saying me what should I do or what I dont/know. Thx

1) I read this thread, so I will use infos written here by swedish/finnish posters. I hope, they gave us correct infos.



SHL clubs have much better tv deal, much more tv money than SML clubs. Lets imagine merged league, 12 SHL + 14 (or 12) SML clubs. This league would be more advantageous for SML clubs which would get more tv money than now.

Nowadys (tv revenues)
SHL club gets 4,2M USD
SML club gets 1,5M USD

Merged (tv revenues) estimation based on status quo/24 clubs
club gets 3M USD

As I read at HFB (so pls dont ask me if I know how swedish ice-hockey is run, because I am using argument of swedish HFBoarders, including you) rich SHL clubs does not want to increase amount of clubs to 14. One of reasons is tv deal and it sharing, so two more clubs, less money for current SHL clubs. I see that clubs, they are just fine with status quo.

If SHL clubs does not want to share tv deal with two more swedish clubs from Allsvenskan, will they want to share it with 12 finnish clubs?? Yes, there will be bigger market, but it does not mean that tv deal will be good enough. If I were SHL clubs, I would not merge with SML, if I got less than 4M USD (status quo) from tv deals. Now, SHL gets 50M USD, SML cca 20M USD, right? You need at least 100M USD. As I understand it, SHL reached the roof of revenues, so this extra 30M USD tv money would have to be generated by finns. Are they able to do it? Especially without Jokerit?


Viasat can be a swedish company, but they are partner of KHL. I would not be suprised if they prefer established league (KHL) over some new project, if they saw better potential in KHL than in this new finnish-swedish league.

Yes, this CMore can broadcast this merged league, why not? Is the company able to increase tv revenues?

2.Did you read my post? I said I did not talked about fans.

You did not reply to my note about "losing power/influence".

The argument about developing is not a main reason why you dont have merged league with finns in your country. The more important reason is "losing power/influence".

3.That is your opinion, I respect it but dont agree. I have experiance with KHL, you dont. That says a lot.


You imagine the merge very simple, it does not work like that.
I haven't told you to do anything but to think before you post. It is YOU telling us what we can and can't do. Don't you realize that?

You need facts to back up your "stats". You only have "stats" that you have found on Hfboards - but have no clue about the facts behind them. And you refuse to inform yourself, instead you build your own facts. Nothing of what you are writing about is "news" to anyone. So stop "informing" us. You do realize we are swedes, living in Sweden?

Speeking of development. How much development will be done with your approach?
"Can't be done. Case closed!" (unless you are owned by a russian oil-billionere - then everything is possible). Please...

The bolded an italic text:
Please, quote me where I say it will be an easy merge? Once again you shoot from your hip missing the entire wall.

We discuss the possibility and the idea of a hypothetical joint venture with Finland. That is all. We are not discussing anything that should take off next year and we are not discussing anything that will be done over night. It is hypothetical.
There are economical differences between the leagues - that is not news either. There are obstacles to get over - guess what - not news.

I seriously doubt you understand half of what's been written because what you are comming with is very confusing and often debates a position no one has taken. Do us a favor and just quit.


Last edited by icing: 08-11-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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Old
08-11-2013, 10:30 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
3.That is your opinion, I respect it but dont agree. I have experiance with KHL, you dont. That says a lot.
Oh and this. It what way would or could the KHL influence Swedish hockey in their ventures to improve their own product. Seriously? Russian money in Sweden is a non factor. Russian presence in Sweden is a non factor. Sweden don't give a ****** about the desires of the KHL.

And I'm speaking of Swedish hockey now - not just a team or two.

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08-11-2013, 11:44 AM
  #24
vorky
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As icing and Jonimaus said, there is going to be no merged league of Sweden and Finland. So I can agree with this opinion.

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08-11-2013, 12:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
As icing and Jonimaus said, there is going to be no merged league of Sweden and Finland. So I can agree with this opinion.
LOL. What?

This i laughable..
Are you translating through google translate?

No one says there will be a merge, no one says there will not be a merge. This was about the idea of a joint venture of Sweden and Finland.

I will end this by quoting myself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
I seriously doubt you understand half of what's been written because what you are comming with is very confusing and often debates a position no one has taken. Do us a favor and just quit.
It's just bullsh*t being thrown around. But I guess it's kind of entertaining in a way.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 08-11-2013 at 12:40 PM. Reason: flaming
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