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Bouwmeester wants out of Florida

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06-26-2008, 11:38 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Like we keep telling you, his skill set extends far beyond point production. If you want points and nothing else, go sign Brian Campbell.



1st round draft picks don't guarantee a franchise player. Alexandre Daigle says hello from Switzerland.
Also franchise guys like Bouwmeester, Malkin, Crosby, Ovechkin, Phaneuf, Pronger and etc. get drafted top 5 usually and not in the 20's.

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06-26-2008, 11:39 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
but those picks could just as easy (probably easier) turn into Brendl, Lundmark, Jessiman, and Daigle.
This is the same argument that people always use.

They turn into those players when the people drafting them and developing them are incompetent.

In recent years all the Rangers brass has shown is complete competence in the draft and in developing those players. The last mind boggling pick was Jessiman, since that time almost every pick has been a solid pick.

Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov, Del Zotto, Korpikoski, Dubinsky, Callahan, Lundqvist, Dawes, Anisimov, Grachev...

The Rangers have been stockpiling talent through the draft. And it it is just starting to pay dividends.

All you end up doing by trading picks, along with young players is this... you have no picks and you have no young players to come up and fill holes. Thus making you turn to free agency and trades which gets too expensive, and there is a hard salary cap.

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06-26-2008, 11:42 AM
  #153
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sauer, tyutin, callahan, 1st 09, 2nd 10

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06-26-2008, 11:43 AM
  #154
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Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Datsyuk, among others taken in the later rounds...

Yea, top 5 picks have a better shot at becoming franchise players. But franchise players are not limited to the top 5, they're taken all through out the draft.

This argument about top 5 talent and draft picks is baseless.

Sanguinetti is crap because he was not a top 5 pick? Wrong.

And if Sanguinetti were so horrible and had no future, why would Florida take him in exchange for the all powerful and great Bouwmeester

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06-26-2008, 11:43 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
You know those draft picks turn into franchise players, right? Where do you think Bouwmeester came from?

Were do you think talent in the NHL comes from? Osmosis?

They're drafted.
With the exception of the 2003 draft more 1st round picks are busts than
are nhl players forget franchise players..

Bouwmeester was the 1st pick in the draft no way are the rangers going to be in a postion to draft a franchise player next year unless lundqvist gets hit by a bus. also do you realize the draft isn't the only way a team adds players? also the 1st round is not the only round of the draft... I couldn't disagree more with your pov on this...

as for your osmossis comment dan girardi and sean avery say hello...

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06-26-2008, 11:45 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
How many of those players started their career centering a future Hall of Famer on the first line?
yeah lets use a better comparison... like somebody who is on this team... Hello Chris Drury. he played w/ Forsberg I think and put up 44 pts his rookie year. So Dubi could pan out like Drury... he is a born leader, plays well defensively, pretty good shot, good speed, great at faceoffs..

so according to some people on this board Drury is a centerpiece of an offense, a born leader and is worth $7mil a year... skill out the a$$ he is the second coming of Mark Messier. And dubi is costing us under $1mil... why would we want to trade him than.

the bolded part was a joke. for those who have tight sphincters and the drury love.


in all seriousness, Dubi probably will be a better version of Drury in I would say 2 years. and he has size. So if Drury is that freakin good to be a focal point of an offense, why in the world would we want to trade dubi?

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06-26-2008, 11:46 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Datsyuk, among others taken in the later rounds...

Yea, top 5 picks have a better shot at becoming franchise players. But franchise players are not limited to the top 5, they're taken all through out the draft.

This argument about top 5 talent and draft picks is baseless.

Sanguinetti is crap because he was not a top 5 pick? Wrong.

And if Sanguinetti were so horrible and had no future, why would Florida take him in exchange for the all powerful and great Bouwmeester
Who said FLA wants Sang, WE'RE the ones putting him into the deal.

Tell me how many franchise guys come from top 5 picks, picks in the 20's and picks in 5th round and later.

You go from like 50%, to 5% to .00005%

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06-26-2008, 11:47 AM
  #158
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The REAL issue here is this...

A lot of you seem to think that prospects don't amount to ****, and they're easily expendable.

Then tell me, why would a team sell a "franchise" (Bouwmeester is NOT) player for highly skilled and talented prospects? Hmmm.

This works both ways.

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06-26-2008, 11:47 AM
  #159
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ok I'm done anyway. We reached to the point to where we agree to disagree.

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06-26-2008, 11:50 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
With the exception of the 2003 draft more 1st round picks are busts than
are nhl players forget franchise players..

Bouwmeester was the 1st pick in the draft no way are the rangers going to be in a postion to draft a franchise player next year unless lundqvist gets hit by a bus. also do you realize the draft isn't the only way a team adds players? also the 1st round is not the only round of the draft... I couldn't disagree more with your pov on this...

as for your osmossis comment dan girardi and sean avery say hello...
Dan Girardi was an undrafted free agent, sure, but he was also very young when the Rangers signed him. And if they hadn't, he would have re-entered and been taken.

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06-26-2008, 11:52 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by coolbean04 View Post
ok I'm done anyway. We reached to the point to where we agree to disagree.
I think so, lol.

And of course, this is just debating. None of this is personal.


I have more belief in the grow your talent route. And not selling them off.

I simply believe we have 3 Bouwmeesters in the Rangers organization (Staal, Sanguinetti, Del Zotto) and there is no reason to trade a kings ransom for him.

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06-26-2008, 11:53 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
A lot of you seem to think that prospects don't amount to ****, and they're easily expendable.
Actually, it appears you underrate J-Bo more than others underrate NYR picks/prospects.

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06-26-2008, 11:54 AM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
The REAL issue here is this...

A lot of you seem to think that prospects don't amount to ****, and they're easily expendable.

Then tell me, why would a team sell a "franchise" (Bouwmeester is NOT) player for highly skilled and talented prospects? Hmmm.

This works both ways.
b/c a player doesn't want to be there, they can't afford to resign him, or they are just dumb (see Milbury).

heck Philly sold off players for Prospects and they did pretty good.... same goes w/ nashville.


also I'm not sure you're getting the idea that we have more prospects in the system than we do positions that will be available, and that sometimes prospects just flop see Daigle.

I would be no more surpised to see Sangs become an allstar than to see him Flop b/c he couldn't handle the defensive end.

again trading 3 prospects and a pick when you are loaded w/ prospects won't completely drain it. especially when the majority of your NHL team is already under the age of 26.

We have more prospects than we can physically use, unless major injuries, people leave, or TRADES.

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06-26-2008, 11:54 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Dan Girardi was an undrafted free agent, sure, but he was also very young when the Rangers signed him. And if they hadn't, he would have re-entered and been taken.
I dontnthink he was still eligible for the draft when he was signed..he was signed in september of 05..ehy didn't a team just select him a month before? why didn't any team sign him when he was signed to an ahl contract?

also what about the rest of my post?

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06-26-2008, 11:55 AM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
The REAL issue here is this...

A lot of you seem to think that prospects don't amount to ****, and they're easily expendable.

Then tell me, why would a team sell a "franchise" (Bouwmeester is NOT) player for highly skilled and talented prospects? Hmmm.

This works both ways.
But mysteriously, trades do happen in the NHL.

I dunno maybe its just that both teams think they are getting something worthwhile in the deal? I think we have the upper hand in this one because we are getting a proven commodity, and a surefire investment in the future.

We lose potential yes, but the return is too good to bank on potnetial.

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06-26-2008, 11:59 AM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Sanguinetti's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=80230

Del Zotto's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=96525

Bouwmeester's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=46419


The point made about Sanguinetti not putting up AHL numbers yet, despite only playing 6 games at the end of the year for Hartford, well Bouwmeester had even LESS impressive numbers in the AHL.

Sanguinetti our produced him every year in Juniors at comparable ages. And Del Zotto not far behind.


I stand by my statement that Sanguinetti AND Del Zotto have higher ceilings then that of Bouwmeester.


The REAL blunder would be dealing our youth.


The best trades are often the ones you DON'T make.


And don't give me the "proven NHL talent vs. potential" nonsense. That is the same mentality, regardless of Bouwmeester's age, that put the Rangers in a dark age of no farm system and no playoffs.

You absolutely DO NOT sell your future for one guy.

I'll take all of our top youth together as a unit and a team over any ONE guy, every day of the week, 100% of the time.


Just adding... find me any defenseman, other then Lidstrom, in North America who puts up the numbers Sanguinetti did. I don't care what level it is, 29 goals and 70 points and over a PPG as a defenseman is sick. And Del Zotto is just as impressive. If you trade THAT you're nuts. We have potentially the two highest scoring defensemen for the next decade.
totally agree with all of this...

with Avery leaving....you don't trade away Dubinsky...unless you're trying to create the All-Mary Team.....we are small and soft enough as it is.

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06-26-2008, 11:59 AM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
b/c a player doesn't want to be there, they can't afford to resign him, or they are just dumb (see Milbury).

heck Philly sold off players for Prospects and they did pretty good.... same goes w/ nashville.


also I'm not sure you're getting the idea that we have more prospects in the system than we do positions that will be available, and that sometimes prospects just flop see Daigle.

I would be no more surpised to see Sangs become an allstar than to see him Flop b/c he couldn't handle the defensive end.

again trading 3 prospects and a pick when you are loaded w/ prospects won't completely drain it. especially when the majority of your NHL team is already under the age of 26.

We have more prospects than we can physically use, unless major injuries, people leave, or TRADES.
We have a lot of prospects, but we aren't talking about trading depth guys, we are talking about our franchise caliber guys. That are not easily replaced.

I'm not in favor of that.

I don't really care who it is. IMO Sanguinetti + Del Zotto + Dubinsky + 2009 1st >>>>>>>>>>> Bouwmeester.

Don't care if im in the minority, but an abundance of high end talent is worth more then one high end talent.

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06-26-2008, 12:00 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
We have a lot of prospects, but we aren't talking about trading depth guys, we are talking about our franchise caliber guys. That are not easily replaced.

I'm not in favor of that.

I don't really care who it is. IMO Sanguinetti + Del Zotto + Dubinsky + 2009 1st >>>>>>>>>>> Bouwmeester.

Don't care if im in the minority, but an abundance of high end talent is worth more then one high end talent.
I think Boumeester is TOTALLY overrated

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06-26-2008, 12:01 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I dontnthink he was still eligible for the draft when he was signed..he was signed in september of 05..ehy didn't a team just select him a month before? why didn't any team sign him when he was signed to an ahl contract?

also what about the rest of my post?
About Avery?

I think Avery is never going to fulfill his potential. He can't stay healthy because of his style of play. It isn't that he is injury prone, it is that he puts him self in that position.

And the fact he can't stay on anyone's good side...

He has a ton of skill, but he chooses not to use it.

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06-26-2008, 12:02 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
Vinny L scored 28 points in his rookie season.
Eric Staal scored 31 points in his rookie season.
Henrik Zetterberg scored 44 points in his rookie season.

You're right. I guess those guys didn't deserve their praise either.
None of those three played with Jaromir Jagr in their rookie seasons. Vinny was a 1st overall pick, Staal was a 2nd overall pick... those guys were and are a lot more talented than Dubi. Zetterberg was an absolute beast in the Swedish leagues; lack of knowledge was the only reason he was drafted so low. Don't compare Dubi to any of these three players. He's not even on the same plane in terms of talent.

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06-26-2008, 12:04 PM
  #171
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I think Boumeester is TOTALLY overrated
I kind of agree.

I think Florida takes that proposal and runs with it.

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06-26-2008, 12:04 PM
  #172
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Anyway...

There is no right or wrong here.

Just difference in opinion.

With that said, is it even a realistic option. We don't know if Sather will go that route.

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06-26-2008, 12:04 PM
  #173
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Don't forget, if you trade for Bouwmeester, you're basically buying his rights. You still have to pay him a ton. He's going to command at least $7 million per. A $7 million contract + Dubinsky + Sanguinetti + a 1st rounder? That seems like a hefty price to pay for a guy that I believe to be overrated both offensively AND defensively.

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06-26-2008, 12:06 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
I think so, lol.

And of course, this is just debating. None of this is personal.


I have more belief in the grow your talent route. And not selling them off.

I simply believe we have 3 Bouwmeesters in the Rangers organization (Staal, Sanguinetti, Del Zotto) and there is no reason to trade a kings ransom for him.
I agree, just a discussion and not personal attacks.

I too, HATE trading prospects and believe our own prospects are going to be good.

I feel there are some instances where you have to take advantage of trading prospects for certain players. Players that are franchise material (which you disagree he is) and are 24 years old.

Also look at the package we're trading (if we're trading players to fill a hole but create other holes). In this situation, we're trading players and picks to fill a hole but don't create other holes. Center might not be as strong in the future not having Dubinsky but the drop-off is very minimal while the upgrade at D is substantial.

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06-26-2008, 12:07 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Anyway...

There is no right or wrong here.

Just difference in opinion.

With that said, is it even a realistic option. We don't know if Sather will go that route.
I think he certainly dips is toe in those waters. I think if a deal was to be made the package would interesting. Sather would look at what he is. Martin would look at what he can be. Split the difference and I'm still not sure what you have.

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