Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
Morozov has been a million times better than his stats would indicate, he's not setting the world on fire by any means, but his value to the Penguins far outweighs his market value.
Morozov is a support player, not a star, it's hard to create when you're with the likes of Matt Bradley and...hell pick anyone else on this team.
That's a weak argument IMO. The Sedins rarely see ice-time with talented players, yet they have put up solid offensive numbers playing with the likes or Jarkko Ruutu, Mike Keane and Wade Brookbank. They made unknown Jason King an October surprise. If players are talented and work hard enough, they'll produce no matter who their linemates are. If you're consistent, you'll be successful. Morozov has seen little success thus far in his NHL career.
As I'm sure Morozov would if had had Nasland and Bertuzzi and everyone else on his team to draw attention. For the Pens, it's been Morozov....and now Ryan Malone get some attention....THAT'S IT!
I've watched Morozov for a couple years now, he doesn't know where his end of the ice is. With his talent and poor production, lazyness is the only way you can explain his underachieving. I would rather the Canucks bring back Jan Hlavac then acquire Morozov.
And I am certain I have watched Morozov much more than you, so saying that he isn't defensivley reliable is because of laziness makes me think you really HAVN'T watched him all that much.
Again, Morozov is far from a lazy player. He hustles Peter. I wouldnt have a problem with you saying that he is poor defensivly or he is inconsistent, but the lazy tag is not applicable to him.
The league is littered with talented guys who have never made the jump, due to many reasons other than laziness.
In Alex's case, it is a lack of hockey sence that has held him back, along with a lack of creativity, despite his numerous talents.
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Not saying it isn't a bad proposal, it is. All I'm saying is that Morozov is not a guy the Canucks need.
And I agree that he may not be what you need, though I think he would help your team more than you may realize. Give him a creative playmaker and Alex could be a smart asset to a team looking for a scoring winger.
The more I think about it, the less I want a big name player added to this team. As much as having a secondary scoring threat is a good thing, I've started to look at it in a different light. Let's say for example, we add Peter Bondra to the team. Who does the team look to late in the game to score a tying goal? When you have Todd Bertuzzi looking at Peter Bondra and Bondra looking at Bertuzzi, you have a big problem. Offensively, this team's players know their roles. I don't think I want anything to disrupt that chemestry. Additionally, from what I've seen in the playoffs lately, it hasn't been players like Kariya or Selanne that have won playoff games, it has been guys like Leclerc and Marshall.
Give me the Matthew Barnabys, the Mike Sillingers, Brian Holzingers and Bob Boughners of the world. Guys who are willing to go to WAR in the playoffs. These guys will not cost us the farm to get. I am not willing to throw away guys like King, Fedorov or Reid for one shot at a cup. If we are going to overpay for a few months of service, let's try to get a guy like Scott Young out of Dallas (140 playoff games, cup ring, etc)
I no longer like the idea of adding Bondra, Kovalev, Satan or any other soft player who I feel will hurt this team. I want grit, depth and character!
I honestly fail to see how a guy like Kovy, Bondra or Satan could "HURT" your team more than they would help them. Much more in fact.
That's a weak argument IMO. The Sedins rarely see ice-time with talented players, yet they have put up solid offensive numbers playing with the likes or Jarkko Ruutu, Mike Keane and Wade Brookbank. They made unknown Jason King an October surprise. If players are talented and work hard enough, they'll produce no matter who their linemates are. If you're consistent, you'll be successful. Morozov has seen little success thus far in his NHL career.
See, I find THAT a weak argument. You cant say that "player A" will produce if he is talented and works hard enough, while "player B" wont produce in the same situation or a different one. Simply because there are far to many intangibles that go into a players career and whether he is succesful or not.
The Sedins didn't put up THAT solid of numbers with Brookbank,Ruutu and Keane when compared to the numbers they put up with King.
Also, who is to say they wouldn't put up better numbers playing with Naslund, Morrison or Bert?
These are the intangibles I am talking about, which you must consider when judging why a person didnt succeed in his career, which aren't the result of only hard work or talent and desire.
Like I said in another post, this league is littered with talented players who worked very hard, but were never able to find success.
Ther have to be alot more things happen to a given player in order for him to succeed generally, than talent and hard work alone.
While they are certainly important contributing factors, they aren't the only factors.
And BTW, Alex has only 8 less points than does Henrik, in 5 less games playing on a MUCH weaker team, drawing the attention of the opposing teams top lines every night.
It isn't like he is playing THAT much worse than Henrik is.
*NOTE: Don't take this as I am comparing Alex's value to that of the Sedin's, I am just pointing out that he isnt as bad as you make him out to be.
In fact, in the last 2 seasons his PPG is higher by a good margin (which can be attributed to Lemieux, another one of those determining factors I was talking about above).
Morozov is a project as he hasn't proven consistency. Canucks need consistency.
I could see a swing for Holzinger, but a Morozov trade would happen earlier in a season if at all.
If Morozov lacks consistency and you need consistency, why then could you see a deal swinging for Holzinger? Morozov is a much better player and a more consistent one.
If I were the Nucks, I would take Alex ten times over Holzinger.
If Morozov lacks consistency and you need consistency, why then could you see a deal swinging for Holzinger? Morozov is a much better player and a more consistent one.
If I were the Nucks, I would take Alex ten times over Holzinger.
I wouldnt want either of morozov/holzinger.. Unless they come very very cheap.. mid-late round picks for each.. 5th+ rounds. However, I would do this as the absolute last option, if there is nothing going on and nothing can be done with other possible trade talks.
Sure, morozov values a lot higher to his team than the market, but then again, any legit NHLer is valued very high on an AHL team. No offense, but the pens do suck..
-Yes they do. But wasn't that what they wanted all along. They have amazing depth in their system, coupled with a few true blue-chippers. Their goal is to rebuild......that's what they are doing. Quebec/Colorado did it. Montreal has done it(although never to this extent). Detroit did it.Tampa Bay did it after making the playoffs years ago. Florida is doing it in a similar fashion after jumping out of the expansion gate.
-Why would we (Pens fans) take offense? I have an easier time watching a hard working young team lose, than I would an older, overpaid, underacheiving group of superstars lose.
The Sedins didn't put up THAT solid of numbers with Brookbank,Ruutu and Keane when compared to the numbers they put up with King.
The Sedins have been on a tear over the last 25 games scoring at about a PPG. Jason King has had no effect on this whatsoever as when he has played alongside them, he's been brutal, and the Sedins have played the majority of the games with a reolving door of players which includes Ruutu, Brookbank, Keane, Cooke, May, and at times Linden or Bertuzzi. The Sedins have produced with crappy offensive linemates.
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Also, who is to say they wouldn't put up better numbers playing with Naslund, Morrison or Bert?
Obviously they would, who's saying they wouldn't?
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And BTW, Alex has only 8 less points than does Henrik, in 5 less games playing on a MUCH weaker team, drawing the attention of the opposing teams top lines every night.
It isn't like he is playing THAT much worse than Henrik is.
But when you factor in Morozov's soft play and poor defense, he is playing much worse. Do you ever see Morozov battling it out in the corners for over a minute on some shifts? No, but that's where the Sedins make their living.
All I'm saying is the Canucks have gone down this road before with Jan Hlavac and it failed. The Canucks are in the position where they need to add a proven player, someone who can step in and immediately take some pressure off the top lines. Maybe I was wrong about Morozov being lazy, but he is still a soft, poor defensive player, the Canucks don't need someone like that. If Morozov came dirt cheap, say a mid-round pick or average prospect, there may be some interest, but anything more and he's basically a worthless addition to the Canucks. Might as well call up Fedorov and give him a chance(which they are doing now).
Last edited by Peter Griffin: 02-18-2004 at 11:30 AM.
The Sedins have been on a tear over the last 25 games scoring at about a PPG. Jason King has had no effect on this whatsoever as when he has played alongside them, he's been brutal, and the Sedins have played the majority of the games with a reolving door of players which includes Ruutu, Brookbank, Keane, Cooke, May, and at times Linden or Bertuzzi. The Sedins have produced with crappy offensive linemates.
Obviously they would, who's saying they wouldn't?
But when you factor in Morozov's soft play and poor defense, he is playing much worse. Do you ever see Morozov battling it out in the corners for over a minute on some shifts? No, but that's where the Sedins make their living.
All I'm saying is the Canucks have gone down this road before with Jan Hlavac and it failed. The Canucks are in the position where they need to add a proven player, someone who can step in and immediately take some pressure off the top lines. Maybe I was wrong about Morozov being lazy, but he is still a soft, poor defensive player, the Canucks don't need someone like that. If Morozov came dirt cheap, say a mid-round pick or average prospect, there may be some interest, but anything more and he's basically a worthless addition to the Canucks. Might as well call up Fedorov and give him a chance(which they are doing now).
I was waiting for someone to say this.
This is yet another misnomer about Alex's game. One that was deserved his first 4 years in the league.
Alex now, however, is far from soft.
Yes, I DO see him battling in the corners. Yes I do see him taking hits to make plays. Yes I do see him initiating contact.
If you have seen him play the last couple years on a consisyent basis, you would see this also.
I think alot of people are weighing in on this conversation who do not really know, or watch Alexey Morozov. Akit are weighing in while looking at stats and a platers past, instead of his present game.
Alex is no Todd Bertuzzi, but he is no Marcus Naslund either when it comes to phusical play.
I will say this, and stand by this statement. Alex is a VERY good offensive hockey player. He is not someone who can create by himself, but he is a very good compliment to someone whose team is strong with a playmaking cenetr or two.
No the Canucks dont NEED him, but they COULD use him and he WOULD help your team.
I wouldnt want either of morozov/holzinger.. Unless they come very very cheap.. mid-late round picks for each.. 5th+ rounds. However, I would do this as the absolute last option, if there is nothing going on and nothing can be done with other possible trade talks.
Sure, morozov values a lot higher to his team than the market, but then again, any legit NHLer is valued very high on an AHL team. No offense, but the pens do suck..
No offense taken.
You wont get Morozov for a 5th rounder. Not even close.
However, I will glady give you guys Holzinger for a 5th rounder. I'd even throw in a 6th rounder just so we could be rid of him.
And, for the record. My point was that Morozov is better than Holzinger. I didnt insenuate that you would want either, just that one is far better than the other.
Pens would say no. Malik, I doubt would give them much interest. Yes, his +/- is good. He's made some strides since his days in the Hartford organization. But the Pens are knee deep in players that will pass him on the depth chart in a year or two.
Umberger can be had for free in June.
It would take a lot more than a 4th also. I think you are seriously understimating the value of both of these players.
Umberger will likely not be traded FOR. Nonis said they might trade him for the right deal, but they won't be actively shipping him. Other teams could get him once he goes UFA, so why trade for him now and then risk losing him to UFA?
Canucks don't need another offensive d-man, they need another crease clearing d-man, a la Boughner.
Why do Canuck fans all think Umberger will be dealt? Hasn't Burke said numerous times that he's going to let him walk?
Trust me, Burke is going to stick to his word on this, and Umberger is going to be used as an example for future negociations between Canucks and rookies. If Burke caved and signed or traded Umberger, then that gives rookies an upper hand in deals.
A guy the Penguins would probably be interested in is Fedor Fedorov. I doubt Vancouver would look to add Tarnstrom, but they might. A one for one swap of those two players wouldn't really look that bad.
I do not think or hope that Morozov is traded. The same fans who are upset with him are the ones who can't figure out for the life of them why Buchberger is on the team [even though it is obvious], so there you go. Patrick obviously doesn't make moves to appeal to fans, either.
Why do Canuck fans all think Umberger will be dealt? Hasn't Burke said numerous times that he's going to let him walk?
Trust me, Burke is going to stick to his word on this, and Umberger is going to be used as an example for future negociations between Canucks and rookies. If Burke caved and signed or traded Umberger, then that gives rookies an upper hand in deals.
A guy the Penguins would probably be interested in is Fedor Fedorov. I doubt Vancouver would look to add Tarnstrom, but they might. A one for one swap of those two players wouldn't really look that bad.
I do not think or hope that Morozov is traded. The same fans who are upset with him are the ones who can't figure out for the life of them why Buchberger is on the team [even though it is obvious], so there you go. Patrick obviously doesn't make moves to appeal to fans, either.
Ummm...yes it would look bad. Horribly bad actually. While I wouldn't mind Fedor in a deal, why would we trade our best player, who is only 28, has a very affordable contract, and who is leading our team in scoring for Fedorov, who certainly doesn't fill a need that the Penguins have?
In fact, it would create a greater hole in the orginization than what is currently there.
If CP and BB are talking about Fedorov, I think a more likely scenario would be another prospect involved. Though I just dont even see THAT happening.
And Nuck fans, I think your team needs a scoring defensman a little more than you need a punishing crease clearing defensman. Seems like the "experts" agree as there is alot of Leetch to Nucks rumors.
With Colorado picking up Boughner, the Sens picking up Bondra, Phill picking up Zhamnov, Thee Leafs picking up Berehowsky ( ) I think you guys need an upgrade to your second line in order to compete for the cup more than anything.
I could see your team going after possibly Cassels for a playoff drive. You could have had Zhamnov, though you wouldnt give up Auld, King or Kessler (rightfully so).
Cassels wouldnt cost you that.
Ummm...yes it would look bad. Horribly bad actually. While I wouldn't mind Fedor in a deal, why would we trade our best player, who is only 28, has a very affordable contract, and who is leading our team in scoring for Fedorov, who certainly doesn't fill a need that the Penguins have?
In fact, it would create a greater hole in the orginization than what is currently there.
If CP and BB are talking about Fedorov, I think a more likely scenario would be another prospect involved. Though I just dont even see THAT happening.
And Nuck fans, I think your team needs a scoring defensman a little more than you need a punishing crease clearing defensman. Seems like the "experts" agree as there is alot of Leetch to Nucks rumors.
With Colorado picking up Boughner, the Sens picking up Bondra, Phill picking up Zhamnov, Thee Leafs picking up Berehowsky ( ) I think you guys need an upgrade to your second line in order to compete for the cup more than anything.
I could see your team going after possibly Cassels for a playoff drive. You could have had Zhamnov, though you wouldnt give up Auld, King or Kessler (rightfully so).
Cassels wouldnt cost you that.
Jovanovski, Sopel and Ohlund. Pretty good offensive D right there. Besides, Burke is specifically going after a depth guy, even Bob McKenzie is saying Leetch to 'Nucks has a low probability of happening, mainly because of Leetch's $6 M paycheque. Boughner's out, maybe Bombadir if Minny is willing or someone similar.
Cassels is also a low probability. Burke could've retained him for that money, so why would he bring him back for the same price? Besides, Cassels won't be a rental, he's signed for another couple seasons I think. So unless Columbus eats salary, it's not happening. Also, Cassels isn't as good defensively as Morrison, and we all know what happens when Naslund & Bertuzzi aren't matched up with a good two-way centre(especially Bertuzzi, that cherry picker).
If a centre is coming the way of Vancouver, it's of the likes of Sillinger, Gratton et al. This will allow Linden to move to the wing, where he plays better, and shore up the checking lines with Arvedson gone for the rest of the season. The second line will need a winger, preferably a finisher.
Jovanovski, Sopel and Ohlund. Pretty good offensive D right there. Besides, Burke is specifically going after a depth guy, even Bob McKenzie is saying Leetch to 'Nucks has a low probability of happening, mainly because of Leetch's $6 M paycheque. Boughner's out, maybe Bombadir if Minny is willing or someone similar.
Cassels is also a low probability. Burke could've retained him for that money, so why would he bring him back for the same price? Besides, Cassels won't be a rental, he's signed for another couple seasons I think. So unless Columbus eats salary, it's not happening. Also, Cassels isn't as good defensively as Morrison, and we all know what happens when Naslund & Bertuzzi aren't matched up with a good two-way centre(especially Bertuzzi, that cherry picker).
If a centre is coming the way of Vancouver, it's of the likes of Sillinger, Gratton et al. This will allow Linden to move to the wing, where he plays better, and shore up the checking lines with Arvedson gone for the rest of the season. The second line will need a winger, preferably a finisher.
Good post. I would counter with Allen,Ohlund,Malik and, of course Jovo who all can be punishing checkers.
Thats why I believe your defense doesn't neccesarily need an upgrade, which is why I suggested a second line forward.
Gratton would be a good pick up for your third line, but what is his contract like and how many years?
I do think the Nucks need to upgrade thier forward lines a bit if they want to compete for the finals.
Especially if the rumored deals with the Wings happen (Lang/Kovalev)... would your team then, be willing to deal for a guy like O'Neill, even if it cost the Nucks someone like Auld or Kessler?
Morozov's a soft, soft soft player who lived off of Lemieux's empty net passes.
He's not a good player.
And you don't know anything about him as he is a good player, and he is not soft. Seriously, I don't mean to come off as rude, but you should probably watch him play more than once or twice a season before you make assumptions.
Because, as it stands, the two descriptions above are far from the truth.
) I think you guys need an upgrade to your second line in order to compete for the cup more than anything.
