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Old
06-30-2008, 12:32 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
We are actually emulating detroits style....Lots of $ on D-men and goaltending.
Pretty poor way to emulate it considering their defense is miles better and they only spend around 1.5 mil for goaltending.


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06-30-2008, 12:33 PM
  #52
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We are actually emulating detroits style....Lots of $ on D-men and goaltending.
Actually Detroit spends very little on goaltending. Their top 2 d-men (in ATOI) last season however had an average salary of $6.8 Mil and the other top 2 d-men (#3 & 4 guys in ATOI) had an average of $3.25 Mil. Osgood's cap number was $1.4 Mil who was the starter and one of the big reason's they won the Cup.

Detroit's style relies on gritty forwards that can score...aka Booth types (Holmstrom, Draper, Franzen, Cleary, Filppula). Florida doesnt have enough of those guys to try and emulate that style. Detroit's drafting is what gives them the ability to play the style they do. Florida hasn't come close to their ability yet so to suggest that its because of spending on d-men and goaltending is a fallacy.

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06-30-2008, 12:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
We are actually emulating detroits style....Lots of $ on D-men and goaltending.
Detroit's also got top caliber offensive threats, and some of the best defensive forwards in the league, plus the best garbage goal player around in Holmstrom. We've got nothing on that right now.

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You're coming around, I can tell. Any minute you'll be looking for a pitchfork and some horns to fit on JM.
No, I'll never join you...I'll never join the Dark Side! <-- GP

Seriously, if you bother reading anyone's posts, you'd know I'm not all rah-rah JM. My motivations for keeping him have more to do with stabilizing what's been a horrifically chaotic franchise. 10 coaches in only 13 1/2 seasons? Come on! And add to that 7 GMs in the 16 years since the franchise was awarded? And most teams in the league boast former Florida Panthers? It's no freakin' wonder our team's in such a mess. I want to keep JM so he can rebuild the franchise. You can focus on winning once you have a stable platform from which to win. He's got another season to make the playoffs in my book (3 years as GM), and if he does I'd give him another couple to try to make a decently competitive team to try for a Cup run. If the team's standing still by that point, out he goes - but the organization as a whole will be better for not having fired him in typically knee-jerk fashion.

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06-30-2008, 12:49 PM
  #54
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Actually Detroit spends very little on goaltending. Their top 2 d-men (in ATOI) last season however had an average salary of $6.8 Mil and the other top 2 d-men (#3 & 4 guys in ATOI) had an average of $3.25 Mil. Osgood's cap number was $1.4 Mil who was the starter and one of the big reason's they won the Cup.

Detroit's style relies on gritty forwards that can score...aka Booth types (Holmstrom, Draper, Franzen, Cleary, Filppula). Florida doesnt have enough of those guys to try and emulate that style. Detroit's drafting is what gives them the ability to play the style they do. Florida hasn't come close to their ability yet so to suggest that its because of spending on d-men and goaltending is a fallacy.
style is probably not the best choice of words - we aren't going to be able to emulate their style but the general philosophy of spending on defense is, imo, a good one. goaltending is another story; detroit has spent a fair amount in the past (what did hasek make when he brought them the cup last time?) but their solid D has enabled them to not overspend on goaltending. florida, with a young team and shaky D didn't have that luxury. if things continue to progress in terms of roster development, JM may be in a position to bring someone like plante and/or markstrom (sp?) in 2 years down the line at a lot less than 5 mil and allow them to develop, knowing he's got a solid and experienced D in front of them.

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06-30-2008, 12:55 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
style is probably not the best choice of words - we aren't going to be able to emulate their style but the general philosophy of spending on defense is, imo, a good one. goaltending is another story; detroit has spent a fair amount in the past (what did hasek make when he brought them the cup last time?) but their solid D has enabled them to not overspend on goaltending. florida, with a young team and shaky D didn't have that luxury. if things continue to progress in terms of roster development, JM may be in a position to bring someone like plante and/or markstrom (sp?) in 2 years down the line at a lot less than 5 mil and allow them to develop, knowing he's got a solid and experienced D in front of them.
Vokoun could easily be a stop-gap in net until such time as just ONE of Florida's prospect goalies develops into competent NHL talent. At such time, Florida will have a cheaper goalie solution. Presuming that's JM's intent - which no one but he knows, although perhaps he shares some of his thoughts with Alan Cohen.

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06-30-2008, 01:14 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Detroit's also got top caliber offensive threats, and some of the best defensive forwards in the league, plus the best garbage goal player around in Holmstrom. We've got nothing on that right now.



No, I'll never join you...I'll never join the Dark Side! <-- GP

Seriously, if you bother reading anyone's posts, you'd know I'm not all rah-rah JM. My motivations for keeping him have more to do with stabilizing what's been a horrifically chaotic franchise. 10 coaches in only 13 1/2 seasons? Come on! And add to that 7 GMs in the 16 years since the franchise was awarded? And most teams in the league boast former Florida Panthers? It's no freakin' wonder our team's in such a mess. I want to keep JM so he can rebuild the franchise. You can focus on winning once you have a stable platform from which to win. He's got another season to make the playoffs in my book (3 years as GM), and if he does I'd give him another couple to try to make a decently competitive team to try for a Cup run. If the team's standing still by that point, out he goes - but the organization as a whole will be better for not having fired him in typically knee-jerk fashion.
I know that, but you have to have some hope that JM can at least partially do the job. You do, I don't. I don't because his mindset is well-known before he ever got to the Panthers. He's a defense first, conservative and cautious Hockey Guy. Always has been. And I don't think that is what is needed to turn the franchise around. So while you're for giving him some time before dumping him, I see every day that JM is here as another one wasted in finally getting the bold, creative thinking General Manager who likes winning AND ENTERTAINING hockey that this franchise needs to reinvigorate itself. What we have now is the worst of all world's kind of hockey team. A perennial loser who plays a boring style of hockey. And it's a certainty that at least the boring part isn't going to change under JM.

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06-30-2008, 03:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
I know that, but you have to have some hope that JM can at least partially do the job. You do, I don't. I don't because his mindset is well-known before he ever got to the Panthers. He's a defense first, conservative and cautious Hockey Guy. Always has been. And I don't think that is what is needed to turn the franchise around. So while you're for giving him some time before dumping him, I see every day that JM is here as another one wasted in finally getting the bold, creative thinking General Manager who likes winning AND ENTERTAINING hockey that this franchise needs to reinvigorate itself. What we have now is the worst of all world's kind of hockey team. A perennial loser who plays a boring style of hockey. And it's a certainty that at least the boring part isn't going to change under JM.
A++++++++++++++++++++ well said!! I couldn't agree more. What we had before(hoping this new coach brings a new style of hockey) was a boring, old,defensive,cautious style of hockey that did NOT succeed. Thinking Dfense first,and Offense last is the reason why we've been in 11th place the past 3 seasons with JM as coach and GM.
Personally, I like hearing or reading the organization stating that we have the best goal-tending tandum in the NHL, or point production, or how well the PP did,or PK,or whatever to make it seem like we're growing and becoming better, when we still finish at the bottom of the east,with no playoffs!!!!!!!

If we do not pick up an offensive threat in the FA, I don't care who,but someone who can put up 70+points, we are going to see another poorly played season,and barely missing the playoffs again. Its happened over and over and over again,and I don't see the pattern breaking unless we have some forwards who are finally willing to play hard, and put pucks in the net. We need a scoring leader on this team,and we need these players to start playing and not making excuses for their mistakes. There is no reason why Booth,Weiss,Horton,Olesz,Kreps,Dvo,Zed, and Matthias and Frolik(if they make the team) cannot score more. I would personally love for JM to do whatever it takes to bring Hossa(Marian) to the Panthers long term.

Thats my take on all this

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06-30-2008, 03:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
A++++++++++++++++++++ well said!! I couldn't agree more. What we had before(hoping this new coach brings a new style of hockey) was a boring, old,defensive,cautious style of hockey that did NOT succeed. Thinking Dfense first,and Offense last is the reason why we've been in 11th place the past 3 seasons with JM as coach and GM.
Personally, I like hearing or reading the organization stating that we have the best goal-tending tandum in the NHL, or point production, or how well the PP did,or PK,or whatever to make it seem like we're growing and becoming better, when we still finish at the bottom of the east,with no playoffs!!!!!!!

If we do not pick up an offensive threat in the FA, I don't care who,but someone who can put up 70+points, we are going to see another poorly played season,and barely missing the playoffs again. Its happened over and over and over again,and I don't see the pattern breaking unless we have some forwards who are finally willing to play hard, and put pucks in the net. We need a scoring leader on this team,and we need these players to start playing and not making excuses for their mistakes. There is no reason why Booth,Weiss,Horton,Olesz,Kreps,Dvo,Zed, and Matthias and Frolik(if they make the team) cannot score more. I would personally love for JM to do whatever it takes to bring Hossa(Marian) to the Panthers long term.

Thats my take on all this
Ive said before that I would love to go after Hossa, but ONLY if we cant sign Bouw and he is on his way out. Then we could throw the money at Hossa. I am not against bringing in a guy like Sundin either. He is cheaper than Hossa, AND brings that veteran leadership and he can still score and produce. We have a very young team, we need someone like this. If we can land Sundin, i think it would do wonders.

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06-30-2008, 04:14 PM
  #59
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Ive said before that I would love to go after Hossa, but ONLY if we cant sign Bouw and he is on his way out. Then we could throw the money at Hossa. I am not against bringing in a guy like Sundin either. He is cheaper than Hossa, AND brings that veteran leadership and he can still score and produce. We have a very young team, we need someone like this. If we can land Sundin, i think it would do wonders.
What good would be Sundin? Don't you think he's too old,like Niewy and Roberts, barely played and it will make our team look like a retirement place (although Roberts is now on the Lightning)

Why couldn't we go after Hossa? assuming he'd want to play here? I'm sure we can figure out a way to sign both him and Bo to contracts. We can dump Dvo,or Zed if we need more cap space, and I mean honestly what else would we need? We'll have the goaltenders, the Dfense,and now the offense, wouldn't need anymore cap space for anything else. Just a thought

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06-30-2008, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
A++++++++++++++++++++ well said!! I couldn't agree more. What we had before(hoping this new coach brings a new style of hockey) was a boring, old,defensive,cautious style of hockey that did NOT succeed. Thinking Dfense first,and Offense last is the reason why we've been in 11th place the past 3 seasons with JM as coach and GM.
The problem with what he says is that it's reviewing Martin's coaching style. Martin isn't coach anymore, and his new head coach is said to not be similar in approach. More offense, more accountability.

And, further, the Panthers were not playing boring, old, defensive, cautious style hockey at the start of each game. They were attacking and launching an aggressive forecheck out of the gate, often getting early leads. Then they'd sit back on their haunches for the remainder of the games (whether due to coaching, which is what most of us presume, or simply because they were too exhausted or too lazy to press the attack) trying to hold the lead.

Ideally we'll have that aggressive forecheck attempting to be established every game until the team has a 3-4 goal lead, only switching to defensive hockey when there's a comfortable lead in the waning minutes of the game. And not the defensive hockey of the past season where the other team pressed and had the Panthers on their heels, but a defensive system where the team still tries to get the puck deep into the opponents' zone, but aren't pressing with more than one forward. But that should only be when holding a 3 or more goal lead with less than 5 minutes to go after trying to create offense consistently up to that point.

I think everyone's forgetting this team didn't have more than one 30-goal scorer back in 1996 when they made their run to the Finals. Sure, it's not likely to win the Stanley Cup, but if everyone's committed and trying hard not to lose, they'll be at least as successful, since overall this crew is a bit more talented. With a good coach maybe they'll find that same grit that other crew had and make it to the playoffs at the very least, even without Olli. The defense looks to be about as solid, the goaltending's as good as it was then...we just need players to match up to certain Panthers of olde...Horton as Mellanby, Weiss as Barnes, Booth as Bill Lindsay, Kreps as Martin Straka, Dvorak as........himself Anyway, I'm just saying there's a little similarity in how this team is constructed and how that team was. They're just lacking a Brian Skrudland at this point.

I'd still like a little more offense - i.e. a bona-fide top line player, but I don't think the team is a disaster waiting to happen - that part's all going to be up to them.

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06-30-2008, 04:58 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
we just need players to match up to certain Panthers of olde...Horton as Mellanby, Weiss as Barnes, Booth as Bill Lindsay, Kreps as Martin Straka, Dvorak as........himself Anyway, I'm just saying there's a little similarity in how this team is constructed and how that team was. They're just lacking a Brian Skrudland at this point.
Oh my god and this years the Year of the Rat....NINE I think you just stumbled onto something lol

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06-30-2008, 05:05 PM
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Oh my god and this years the Year of the Rat....NINE I think you just stumbled onto something lol

Good thing you included the '' or I'd have to tell you you took me too seriously

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06-30-2008, 05:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
A++++++++++++++++++++ well said!! I couldn't agree more. What we had before(hoping this new coach brings a new style of hockey) was a boring, old,defensive,cautious style of hockey that did NOT succeed. Thinking Dfense first,and Offense last is the reason why we've been in 11th place the past 3 seasons with JM as coach and GM.
Personally, I like hearing or reading the organization stating that we have the best goal-tending tandum in the NHL, or point production, or how well the PP did,or PK,or whatever to make it seem like we're growing and becoming better, when we still finish at the bottom of the east,with no playoffs!!!!!!!

If we do not pick up an offensive threat in the FA, I don't care who,but someone who can put up 70+points, we are going to see another poorly played season,and barely missing the playoffs again. Its happened over and over and over again,and I don't see the pattern breaking unless we have some forwards who are finally willing to play hard, and put pucks in the net. We need a scoring leader on this team,and we need these players to start playing and not making excuses for their mistakes. There is no reason why Booth,Weiss,Horton,Olesz,Kreps,Dvo,Zed, and Matthias and Frolik(if they make the team) cannot score more. I would personally love for JM to do whatever it takes to bring Hossa(Marian) to the Panthers long term.

Thats my take on all this
that's one way to look at it. more less fits with GP's position. don't mean this in an offensive way but i view that particular take as rather unsophisticated hockey wise for a number of reasons. first and foremost, i disagree with the characterizations leveled at JM - that he's defense only coach. yes, he has had tried to get this roster to play within its limitations but i would argue that it's the limitations of the roster that has resulted in the less than thrilling hockey, rather than the particulars of 1-2-2, 2-1-2, one-wing-high, etc. JM tried to get the kids to play. also - and this isn't really an arguable point - offense starts with good defense so if you aren't playing well in your own end, you're screwed anyhow (even if your top line has 3 hossas).

second, the reason why we are where we are is *precisely* because we have not focused on defense and goaltending; this team was very exciting for a period of time when bure was here but that was just part of a stretch in which we invested very little in defense. as a result, for the past couple of years, we've been without a blue chip prospect on the blue line and with a mediocre (at best) defense built around one stud kid. what is happening now is loooong overdue. name me a team that has contended consistently that was not built around solid defense (i.e., that didn't just ride a streaky scorer or two to the final or cup). how about a team that has contended consistently that was built around scoring with a shoddy or subpar defense?

i said it a few days ago and i'll say it again - i'm more psyched about this team now with olli gone than i have been the past 2 years. i feel like we will see much different play from some of the kids who labored in his shadow the past few years and a different energy from the team as a whole (even discounting the new coach, which could have a nice effect but which i, as you know, i didn't feel was as necessary as some others did). even without another move, i think this team's better and will be *more* exciting to watch. heck - if nothing else, we'll see more up and down action simply because we should be able to exit the zone quicker and easier. i do think something's in the works for some offensive help but i also think that folks will be surprised by how this team looks when it takes the ice. imo, it's actually shaping up as a quicker and more highly skilled team than we've seen here in some time, even if it takes a couple of more years to fully flesh things out. i could be wrong (and will admit it if so) but that's my take.

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06-30-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther
I know that, but you have to have some hope that JM can at least partially do the job. You do, I don't. I don't because his mindset is well-known before he ever got to the Panthers. He's a defense first, conservative and cautious Hockey Guy. Always has been. And I don't think that is what is needed to turn the franchise around. So while you're for giving him some time before dumping him, I see every day that JM is here as another one wasted in finally getting the bold, creative thinking General Manager who likes winning AND ENTERTAINING hockey that this franchise needs to reinvigorate itself. What we have now is the worst of all world's kind of hockey team. A perennial loser who plays a boring style of hockey. And it's a certainty that at least the boring part isn't going to change under JM.
None of us had ANY IDEA that you felt this way. I mean, you haven't made that at all clear.

One question, in all seriousness, what exactly is your point making up all these threads and carrying on as you do? Your view was made clear well over a year ago, and I haven't seen anyone who disagreed with you last year really agree with you this year.

As has been said, Martin's not in charge anymore and he got the complete opposite of himself as the new coach. Can't we wait and see what happens? Nothing you do on here or say is going to change what happens with the team.

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06-30-2008, 05:26 PM
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None of us had ANY IDEA that you felt this way. I mean, you haven't made that at all clear.

One question, in all seriousness, what exactly is your point making up all these threads and carrying on as you do? Your view was made clear well over a year ago, and I haven't seen anyone who disagreed with you last year really agree with you this year.

As has been said, Martin's not in charge anymore and he got the complete opposite of himself as the new coach. Can't we wait and see what happens? Nothing you do on here or say is going to change what happens with the team.
I agree! GP, your posts are just the same repetitive stuff over and over. I can say for certain that at least 10 people here are tired of it. Every thread becomes a Pro-Martin vs. Anti-Martin thread and it honestly makes me not even want to post here anymore because it's so annoying.

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06-30-2008, 05:28 PM
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Martin must be forgetting he's not coach anymore - DeBoer will be deciding who plays where ultimately.

I don't like JM's attitude on scoring - three playoff teams scored fewer goals, but which one won the Stanley Cup? Oh, that's right - none of the above.
Could one of the reasons, not the only one but one of them, that JM hired a junior coach and not one with any professional experience be that he could more easily influence him on who to play and how to play them than a coach with more NHL experience?

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06-30-2008, 05:31 PM
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What good would be Sundin? Don't you think he's too old,like Niewy and Roberts, barely played and it will make our team look like a retirement place (although Roberts is now on the Lightning)

Why couldn't we go after Hossa? assuming he'd want to play here? I'm sure we can figure out a way to sign both him and Bo to contracts. We can dump Dvo,or Zed if we need more cap space, and I mean honestly what else would we need? We'll have the goaltenders, the Dfense,and now the offense, wouldn't need anymore cap space for anything else. Just a thought
You're comparing Sundin, who's healthy and was almost a ppg player last season. Nieuwy and Roberts weren't healthy, were older, and weren't scoring like that. We get Sundin, which I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we do but I'm not expecting it, and we get an Olli with tremendous leadership skills who works hard every night. Everything lost by trading him is gotten back with a tremendous addition.

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06-30-2008, 05:31 PM
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I agree! GP, your posts are just the same repetitive stuff over and over. I can say for certain that at least 10 people here are tired of it. Every thread becomes a Pro-Martin vs. Anti-Martin thread and it honestly makes me not even want to post here anymore because it's so annoying.
I agree 100% with you and Laus .

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06-30-2008, 05:34 PM
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I agree! GP, your posts are just the same repetitive stuff over and over. I can say for certain that at least 10 people here are tired of it. Every thread becomes a Pro-Martin vs. Anti-Martin thread and it honestly makes me not even want to post here anymore because it's so annoying.
I would say there is more Anti-Martin feeling now then a year ago so some good has come from my ever vigilant observations of the mismanagement of the JM regime.

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06-30-2008, 05:40 PM
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Could one of the reasons, not the only one but one of them, that JM hired a junior coach and not one with any professional experience be that he could more easily influence him on who to play and how to play them than a coach with more NHL experience?
He does seem like a bit of a milquetoast.

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06-30-2008, 05:41 PM
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I would say there is more Anti-Martin feeling now then a year ago so some good has come from my ever vigilant observations of the mismanagement of the JM regime.
If 1 ounce of good has come from your constant badgering, 372 gallons of bad have also come. Trust me on this one.

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06-30-2008, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
I would say there is more Anti-Martin feeling now then a year ago so some good has come from my ever vigilant observations of the mismanagement of the JM regime.
Your anti martin supporters may be growing but thats no excuse to be shoving anti martin threads and comments down our throats non-stop . We get it , no need to keep repeating yourself. And if you got nothing else to say but anti martin comments , that dont say anything at all .
I am not saying you cant have an opposing view , in fact , you can bash martin but tone it down , spread out your attacks . Your negativity with some other posters is really not making this a fun place to post anymore. Non stop negativity gets tiring really fast.

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06-30-2008, 05:47 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
I agree! GP, your posts are just the same repetitive stuff over and over. I can say for certain that at least 10 people here are tired of it. Every thread becomes a Pro-Martin vs. Anti-Martin thread and it honestly makes me not even want to post here anymore because it's so annoying.
Pretty much. I wouldn't even call myself pro-Martin, but I'm willing to be patient with him and see what he does. He's not done a bad job, imo. Some mistakes and whatnot, but so has every GM.

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06-30-2008, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther
I would say there is more Anti-Martin feeling now then a year ago so some good has come from my ever vigilant observations of the mismanagement of the JM regime.
New posters, not from those who've been here for a length of time, other than those who've always been iffy with him.

And again, your tireless and annoying rants and twisting articles on here have done absolutely nothing to change the team's view. So, again, what is your motive? Other than to use this as a place to flame Martin?

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06-30-2008, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther
Could one of the reasons, not the only one but one of them, that JM hired a junior coach and not one with any professional experience be that he could more easily influence him on who to play and how to play them than a coach with more NHL experience?
Considering most the teams with openings were after him and he's been popular for years, no, not at all. Nice try, though, again.

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