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Official Free Agent Frenzy Thread (Deals from other teams)

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Old
06-30-2008, 08:02 AM
  #276
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Worst contract since the lockout, no question. I'm am I'm speaking about the money, but about the length which this money is going to be spread over.

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06-30-2008, 08:04 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Malone has been criticized over the years by Pitt. fans for lack of intensity/maturity, or whatever reasons, but if he's turned the corner and is now a Murray,Knuble type of player in his prime, he's getting what he's worth. 7 years is a worry, but an average of 4.something isn't. I heard talk of a higher number .
He did not turn anything around, it's called a contract year. Even then the guy was lazy enough to take first half of the season off. Check his stats as of January before Malkin got hot. Pathetic.

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06-30-2008, 08:13 AM
  #278
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It's not ridiculous at all. He may be getting a lot of up front money but over the 7 years it works out to a 4.5 mil cap hit which is very reasonable.
Like another poster said, who cares what they pay him if they have the cap room it's within their rights. Further more it does not effect the economic structure of the NHL either because if and when revenues lower so do players salaries by that same percentage. So if this year the NHL revenues are 15% lower then last year, players take a 15% pay cut as well so it's all relevant to NHL revenues and balances itself out.

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06-30-2008, 08:22 AM
  #279
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Is this Bobby Holik Part II?

Malone's timing was perfect, a substellar UFA crop this year. He is in the spotlight due to the Pens run to the SC Finals. He's a big body (and despite the draft this year, many teams still drool over the big bodies). And the new Tampa owners need to make a splash in their market.

In relative terms, this would be a 2.5 to 3.0 million dollar equivalent back in the 36 cap years. Is 4.5 too much or is the 7 years too much. Personally I think the front loading is equivalent to the old signing bonuses and the balance is what it took to get him into Tampa. You cannot blame the ownership group in Tampa for not trying. They clearly feel that they can afford it.

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06-30-2008, 08:33 AM
  #280
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I guess the Lightning didn't learn.

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06-30-2008, 08:48 AM
  #281
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Originally Posted by P1x44r View Post
He did not turn anything around, it's called a contract year. Even then the guy was lazy enough to take first half of the season off. Check his stats as of January before Malkin got hot. Pathetic.
Well, if you're right, TB made a bad deal. I don't know if Malone got to the point where he took his role and ran with it, and shared responsibility with Malkin, or what you say.

If nothing else, he proved he can play well beside a big stud C. TB has a big stud C.

Maybe you're right, but if Malone is a constant 50-60 pt. guy who is of use alongside VL or Stamkos, the money isn't outrageous.

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06-30-2008, 08:49 AM
  #282
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4-5mil is what 45-60 point producers make now, it's just the way she goes. Forget about logic and just accept it for fact.
According to this logic, no one should have ever been dissapointed with Kovalev's numbers since joining the Habs, or Koivu's 'bad' year this season.

I've always thought both we're a bargain at their current salaries.

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06-30-2008, 09:08 AM
  #283
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Originally Posted by GoHabsGo247 View Post
According to this logic, no one should have ever been dissapointed with Kovalev's numbers since joining the Habs, or Koivu's 'bad' year this season.

I've always thought both we're a bargain at their current salaries.
Especially last year when you compare Kovalev's numbers to Briere's number and factor in the contracts.

But we may be saying that about Malone in a few years.

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06-30-2008, 09:11 AM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
I'm not Tanguay's biggest supporter. He's a good playmaking winger who has been lucky to have great linemates his whole career. You don't pay Malone 4.5M (Kovy's salary) just cause he had a good playoff run (where he was probably their 5th best player behind Crosby, Malkin, Hossa and Fleury). But people bought into the Don Cherry n' Co. hype about how he was great. Never has a man taking pucks to the face ever been so overrated. First off, why didn't the idiot put on a visor or mask so his nose wouldn't get busted again? That may be brave but it's idiotic above all.

Malone's rookie year was unexpected but he's done nothing too great since then. He'll have decent numbers but can he look anything but pedestrian without superstars in Pittsburgh? If the Habs are going to target big, rough, power forwards I'd rather they not be locked up for 7 overpaid years like Malone. Didn't anyone learn from Boston's Marty Lapointe experiment (another player whose great team made him look better). The wild spending of NHL owners lately is proving once and for all that they haven't learned and will draw us to another lockout.

Of course, people will still eat up the notion that the players must change even though the owners have failed to curb spending in every CBA they supposedly won. Yeah, stupid players and their agents making money. We seem to embrace living in a market economy but hate it in our hockey circles where we feel it should be like socialism with no one rising so high that they out-earn the average man by so much and bankrupt their poor little small market teams.

When agents and players do what they should, they get chewed up. When owners do it, they get a free pass then public support when they cry poor. If the next CBA dilemma has the same old story, I think I'll puke. Coules is improving Tampa but at what price? Sometimes management who thinks they know what they're doing is worse than one that has no clue and relies on their hockey hirings for decisions.
You can attack this deal as bad, and I agree it is a waste of cap space... but I don't think its leading us to another lockout..... The fact remains the max that players can get is 56% of league revenues.

Malone's 4.5m cap hit could probably be better spent on different players... but that doesn't make it bad for the entire league.... just the bolts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra View Post
I might be slow but from that post "The converse is true - if the amout paid was less than the averaged cap hit, they get a cap credit back against the buyout." isn't it a front loading advantage?
No... they have to take 66% of the cap hit; but can double the years its spread out over... so its still 33% of the average cap hit.... Same as if the contract wasn't front loaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
If they want to move a player to a team, like say Columbus, then the trade is more feasible for Columbus because they are paying less money and could care less what the cap hit is since they don't spend anywhere near it.
Thanks Natey... you finally figured out an advantage for the team in front loading the contract.

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Old
06-30-2008, 09:37 AM
  #285
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
You can attack this deal as bad, and I agree it is a waste of cap space... but I don't think its leading us to another lockout..... The fact remains the max that players can get is 56% of league revenues.

Malone's 4.5m cap hit could probably be better spent on different players... but that doesn't make it bad for the entire league.... just the bolts.
Exactly. There is definitely an effect felt on the league (longer contracts are becoming the trend) but the cap insures that there is an even field.

Frankly, we're coming to a point where some GMs who are sitting by and not moving may get a pay off later.

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06-30-2008, 09:40 AM
  #286
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The Tampa owners are gunslinging their way into the league. They will have to learn that spending the money doesn't mean you have a winner. They will have to score 6 goals per game if they want to win.

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Old
06-30-2008, 09:43 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Exactly. There is definitely an effect felt on the league (longer contracts are becoming the trend) but the cap insures that there is an even field.

Frankly, we're coming to a point where some GMs who are sitting by and not moving may get a pay off later.
You know, sometimes there's a point in our collective madness. If Gainey was to tell Sundin that, 'hey, why hurry, I don't want anyone else really, so wait until August. Go fishing. In fact rent a bigger boat, I'm going to. Think about what you want to do. Know that I can and will compete finacially and once I take care of Kostitsyn, I'm taking July off. If you want to come fine, if not, no one else seems more attractive on July 1 than whatever is avail. in August so see ya.

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06-30-2008, 09:53 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Exactly. There is definitely an effect felt on the league (longer contracts are becoming the trend) but the cap insures that there is an even field.

Frankly, we're coming to a point where some GMs who are sitting by and not moving may get a pay off later.
Precisely what I've been saying since the new CBA went into effect. The $$ values of the contracts are similar, they are just spreading it over more years in order to cope with the cap implications.

Also don't forget, UFA status for the most part used to happen at 32 years of age. And most contracts at that point were for 3-4 years. With the age being lowered it has led to longer contracts in order to guarantee that the players stay until their mid 30's.

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06-30-2008, 09:55 AM
  #289
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The Bolts have traded for the rights to Rolston now. At least he's old enough that the term of the contract is unlikely to be silly.

Um... shouldn't they get D-men? Maybe they should consider trading for and overpaying Campbell instead.

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06-30-2008, 10:02 AM
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
If Malone is what he was down teh stretch this year, it seems a fair deal. The up front money has no bearing on the cap and if they can afford it, more power to them for using this as a creative tool to get the deal done.

Malone has been criticized over the years by Pitt. fans for lack of intensity/maturity, or whatever reasons, but if he's turned the corner and is now a Murray,Knuble type of player in his prime, he's getting what he's worth. 7 years is a worry, but an average of 4.something isn't. I heard talk of a higher number .
I love your moderate stance, man, but this time I think you're out to lunch.

As others have said, this looks a lot more like a desperate team opening the vault to a mediocre forward having a career season in a contract year.

What makes players like Knuble and Murray attractive is that they are usually servicable forwards that add flexibility to a team. These guys were journeyman. Solid NHLers who had ups and downs. Teams weren't built around them and they offered stability to a team, not the other way around.

Malone is showing indication that he may be that type of player but there's no guarantee, and he is now locked in Tampa.

The reason guys like Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, etc... are so valuable and cost so much money is precisely because they significantly improve the team and make players around them better, or more useful. But if you start paying their support linemates these kind of price tag, what's the benefit exactly? Where's the logic? I think this one is going to come back and bite Tampa Bay.

I think several teams are destroying themselves right now and the effect will be felt in a few years. You're supposed to share risk. Players are on guaranteed contracts. If you are going to sign big numbers, it should be for a lower number of years. If you want long term security, you're supposed to sign for less.

The recent trend is that these guaranteed contracts are for hefty numbers over a long number of years. Tampa is taking all the risk here, on a player who could barely play in second grade European league during the lockout and has had one good (not great) season.

There's just no angle where I can say: "yeah, I don't agree but I can see where they are comiung from". Because it's just terrible no matter how I look at it.

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06-30-2008, 10:25 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
I love your moderate stance, man, but this time I think you're out to lunch.

As others have said, this looks a lot more like a desperate team opening the vault to a mediocre forward having a career season in a contract year.

What makes players like Knuble and Murray attractive is that they are usually servicable forwards that add flexibility to a team. These guys were journeyman. Solid NHLers who had ups and downs. Teams weren't built around them and they offered stability to a team, not the other way around.

Malone is showing indication that he may be that type of player but there's no guarantee, and he is now locked in Tampa.

The reason guys like Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, etc... are so valuable and cost so much money is precisely because they significantly improve the team and make players around them better, or more useful. But if you start paying their support linemates these kind of price tag, what's the benefit exactly? Where's the logic? I think this one is going to come back and bite Tampa Bay.

I think several teams are destroying themselves right now and the effect will be felt in a few years. You're supposed to share risk. Players are on guaranteed contracts. If you are going to sign big numbers, it should be for a lower number of years. If you want long term security, you're supposed to sign for less.

The recent trend is that these guaranteed contracts are for hefty numbers over a long number of years. Tampa is taking all the risk here, on a player who could barely play in second grade European league during the lockout and has had one good (not great) season.

There's just no angle where I can say: "yeah, I don't agree but I can see where they are comiung from". Because it's just terrible no matter how I look at it.
Doesn't Malone seem like the prototype 'ride shotgun' forward ?

I read your post and looked up Malone's hockey db. I thought he had another year or so under his belt. I didn't realize he was a good rookie on a bad team heading into the lockout.

I think it comes down to player evaluation. If he is going to be that solid guy who will be a reliable winger beside an elite player, I think he's good value. If he is going to become like Murray where he has a hard time with the pace of the game, well....

My 2nd post, I was saying that I agree that doing nothing and letting the dust settle may be the smart thing, but TB identified a need and feel they dealt with it. If not Vinny, Stamkos will need a physical guy nearby. We'll see how Malone responds when there's more focus on him, though.


Would you prefer 5 years at 6, compared to 7 at 4.3 ? I can't quite wrap my mind around why one is really better than the other.

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06-30-2008, 10:26 AM
  #292
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McPhee is not out to lunch.

There is no guarantee in hockey.

Signing Sundin is not a guarantee. Neither is trading for Tanguay.

Getting Malone is a gamble, but he has been a better player the last two years and looks to be "getting it". He will probably play with either Lecavalier, St.Louis or Stamkos and have a good year.

TB are taking a risk but it could pay off.

The Flyers signing Hartnell and Timonen last year was a huge gamble but it paid off.

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06-30-2008, 10:35 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
McPhee is not out to lunch.

There is no guarantee in hockey.

Signing Sundin is not a guarantee. Neither is trading for Tanguay.

Getting Malone is a gamble, but he has been a better player the last two years and looks to be "getting it". He will probably play with either Lecavalier, St.Louis or Stamkos and have a good year.

TB are taking a risk but it could pay off.

The Flyers signing Hartnell and Timonen last year was a huge gamble but it paid off.
nittany, it was the last year though. 06-07 was quite poor for Malone. I kept reading cryptic posts about him of the same type we read about some departed CH players who had to leave the city in a hurry.

It's interesting how points vs. grit gets measured at contract time. Hartnell,Malone seem similar. Neither are as productive as Tanguay. If Tabguay was on teh market right now,I'm very curious as how he would be perecived.

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06-30-2008, 10:49 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
I think several teams are destroying themselves right now and the effect will be felt in a few years. You're supposed to share risk. Players are on guaranteed contracts. If you are going to sign big numbers, it should be for a lower number of years. If you want long term security, you're supposed to sign for less.

The recent trend is that these guaranteed contracts are for hefty numbers over a long number of years. Tampa is taking all the risk here, on a player who could barely play in second grade European league during the lockout and has had one good (not great) season.

There's just no angle where I can say: "yeah, I don't agree but I can see where they are comiung from". Because it's just terrible no matter how I look at it.
Doesn't that sound eerily familiar, say pre-lockout.

Somewhere along the way some owners and GM's have forgotten why we lost a year of hockey. Still too many knee-jerk reactions to the whims of players and agents.

But then again, some of these teams may just say what Lowe said last year, to heck with the rest of the teams I've got to do what is best for my team, by any means necessary.

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06-30-2008, 10:57 AM
  #295
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Good for the Lightning in signing these players. Show Vinny and Stamkos you are dedicated to winning, as well as your diminishing fanbase. These are very smart moves by the new ownership regardless of money or length of contract.

Plus if they make the playoffs Malone, Roberts and Rolston are all guys that are going to give you 110% each game. They will be a tough team to beat.

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06-30-2008, 11:00 AM
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artie View Post
Doesn't that sound eerily familiar, say pre-lockout.

Somewhere along the way some owners and GM's have forgotten why we lost a year of hockey. Still too many knee-jerk reactions to the whims of players and agents.

But then again, some of these teams may just say what Lowe said last year, to heck with the rest of the teams I've got to do what is best for my team, by any means necessary.
Except that no matter what salaries are 56% of revenue.

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06-30-2008, 11:16 AM
  #297
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
McPhee is not out to lunch.

There is no guarantee in hockey.

Signing Sundin is not a guarantee. Neither is trading for Tanguay.
I totally agree that there is no guarantee in hockey. That shouldn't serve as a blanket statement that all deals are good. Just because there's no guarantee in hockey doesn't mean Dandenault should get a 5 year extension at $3M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Getting Malone is a gamble, but he has been a better player the last two years and looks to be "getting it". He will probably play with either Lecavalier, St.Louis or Stamkos and have a good year.
Precisely. If his year is depends on good players, I fail to see how he is worth his new, obscenely long and costly contract.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
TB are taking a risk but it could pay off.
Well, you've spent a good part of your post speaking of the absence of guarantees. And here's the problem: There's no guarantee it will pay off but it is guaranteed that he will make great money and eat Tampa's cap and cut their flexibility.

Quote:
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The Flyers signing Hartnell and Timonen last year was a huge gamble but it paid off.
How do you figure? The Flyers traded a first round pick (Jonathon Blum) who hasn't even stepped on NHL yet and then spent $63M over six years on Timonen and Hartnell (not to mention other players you conveniently forget like Brière $52M/8 years deal) and you're ready to proclaim it "paid off" because they won two rounds of playoff hockey?

Gimme some of what you're having.

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06-30-2008, 11:18 AM
  #298
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
nittany, it was the last year though. 06-07 was quite poor for Malone. I kept reading cryptic posts about him of the same type we read about some departed CH players who had to leave the city in a hurry.

It's interesting how points vs. grit gets measured at contract time. Hartnell,Malone seem similar. Neither are as productive as Tanguay. If Tabguay was on teh market right now,I'm very curious as how he would be perecived.
The thing with the Habs is, IMO, we have guys who can be "productive" but a guy like Malone can bring an extra dimension, that I think we lacked in the playoffs last year.

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06-30-2008, 11:20 AM
  #299
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I guess going from last overall to the conference finals does not equate to their moves having paid off.

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06-30-2008, 11:22 AM
  #300
Vlad The Impaler
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Originally Posted by Artie View Post
Doesn't that sound eerily familiar, say pre-lockout.

Somewhere along the way some owners and GM's have forgotten why we lost a year of hockey. Still too many knee-jerk reactions to the whims of players and agents.

But then again, some of these teams may just say what Lowe said last year, to heck with the rest of the teams I've got to do what is best for my team, by any means necessary.
I get what you are saying but Beaker is right: no matter what, there are now some mechanisms that make it easier for a team to remain wise. So while these contracts have effects that can be felt all over the league, the bottom line for the NHL is always maintained because the NHLPA can't make more than a pre-determined piece of the pie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
I guess going from last overall to the conference finals does not equate to their moves having paid off.
It really doesn't, no.


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